JustIan's Baclofen Redux

[JustIan]

I'm a guy that used to post here under the name of guardian and inheritmylife. Some of you may remember that I successfully got sober on baclofen around this time last year. Even after I quit posting on a regular basis, I've stayed indifferent, but not sober, for about 9 months. I'm proud to say that sober Ian did in 1 year what 10 years of drunken, emotionally immature Ian managed to screw up. I have gone back to school and held good grades, I keep a regular job, and I finally married my wife.

I was lucky in a way, because initially at least, baclofen sent me into a pretty significant hypomania. I took enough baclofen to get to indifference within a week or so, and I was still riding high on dopamine two months later. People on bluelight liken this stuff to phenibut and other mild club drugs for a reason. My fast titration is probably responsible for the initial mood swing, and the subsequent crash, which I'll get to.

I tried to tell myself that treating whatever neurological deficiency that caused me to want to self-medicate with booze had allowed my personality to be openly expressed, but I knew better. During that 2-3 months I was outgoing and charming, confident without being aggressive, and happy as shit. Before treatment, I acted content and confident, but I was pretty miserable most of the time, and spent most of my time trying to dominate people because I felt insecure. I was a narcissistic douche-bag.

The initial baclofen magic wore off and I found myself in a worse fit of depression and anxiety than I have ever known. It lasted for at least six months. I kept checking in here to see if anyone was having similar issues, and many were. UkBonde in particular described having feelings very similar to mine; although she didn't get to have all the fun with the hypo-mania like I did. I am 100% positive that high dose baclofen caused a lot of it. I was sober, but I got to be a miserable enough prick that I thought it was a pretty good idea to get myself some professional advice.

I went to see a great psychiatrist and he agreed to help me out with the depression, anxiety and attentive issues. I spilled the beans to him about the whole baclofen for alcoholism thing. Fortunately, he was familiar with it and didn't have any problem with me using it off label. He did feel that the baclofen could be a con-founder, given its half-life and my tale about the hypomaina, and later significant depression and anxiety.

Here's where I get confused: I went on sertraline, later stratera; I also quickly titrated off baclofen. I felt was off baclofen in a week, and felt immediately better. I always bad mouthed SSRIs because, statistically they're less effective than a 30 minute run in the morning. Well, I run 45 minutes 3 times a week and lift weights 6 days a week and zoloft is better. I just can't put an honest value on how much the SSRI actually helps, given that I'm off the baclofen, which I'm sure caused some issues, and I'm older and in a more stable position in my life.

Regardless, I'm drinking again. It took about 3 months of being off the bac. I'm much better than I was prior to baclofen, but its getting worse. Most of this post was written while I was drunk. Despite the drinking, I'm doing ok with outward appearances and keeping my stuff together. I've started baclofen again, and I just felt as if it would help if I checked back in here in order to have some folks I can relate to.

This time I'm upping my dose slowly, taking my daily dose spread out evenly over 24 hours, and am not taking any days off. So far so good.

Ian

[Ne/Neva Eva]

JustIan's Baclofen Redux

Hi Ian. If you meant that for a while you were manic, and then crashed into depression, I had a similar experience. Mine happened when I quickly titrated down, and then quickly back up, after reaching indifference at 340mg. It leveled off for me, though, without the crash and burn. Maybe because I stayed at around 220mg for a couple of months. And I got some adderal, which helped with focus and energy for a short time. I figured, after reading tons of accounts here, that to go off of bac completely was to return to the state of chemistry that got me to bac in the first place. I also figured that my chemistry adjusts to my normal after time. Homeostasis is not my friend in this particular case.
I'm glad you've found some solutions. I also really appreciate your post. It helps clarify my own path--I'm also back in school, taking care of business and still looking for the balance. It's a wily disease for sure.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

JustIan's Baclofen Redux

How long have you been on Zoloft? I'm thinking of trying an med used for narcolepsy--modrafinil I think-- for more energy and focus. I think bac interferes w most of the meds used to treat ADD/depression. I'm not depressed but I don't want to be!!! Modrafinil is used off label and works in a different way than the others do...
Please keep posting. It's much appreciated.

[penelope67]

JustIan's Baclofen Redux

Hi Ian would you mind mapping out your entire titration schedule on baclofen
how fast did you titrate up
you said: I took enough baclofen to get to indifference within a week or so
what was switch dose
did you titrate down to maintenance dose after switch?
and at what point did the depression and anxiety begin and where were you in the titration schedule
thanks,
Andrea

[Bill.P.]

JustIan's Baclofen Redux

If you are not manic, but hypomanic, you are part of the bipoloar spectrum. Almost two classes well a specturm, but two different things entireley

SSRI's or depressants will make it worse, increase frequency of the cucles as well as the intensity of them

You need to be on a mood stabilizier. If you have bipolar 2, that viariant, if given an antidepressant, you'll go off the wall. Look it up and research.

The gold standards is a mood stabilizer called lithium.Most bipolar patients stop taking it because it takes away the higher state of, creativity, energy, the mania, which they enjoy.

The better and my preferrred medication is lamictal/lamotrigene, it's the best mood stabilizer on the market.Althought stevens-johnson syndrom is a very rare condition of using it (but I figure there are more important things to living, especially as a zombie)
A) it takes away the very very depressive lows more characteristic of the bipolar 2 types, unlike bipolar types who dont get the severe suicidal ideation thoughts. But leaves a hypomanic state, just not as high.So you are producitve and your normal self
B) Bipolar 2 types are rarely manic, they are hypomanic, often seen as overachievers until they crash, but they are hard to diagnose.


You should NEVER take an SSRI or SNRI with a bipolar 2 diagnosis if that is what it is. It exacerbates the cycle. You get hypomanic, which leads to depression with leads back to hypomanic..


NEVER EVER take an antidepressant if any doctor mentions the word hypomania. Further testing is needed to rule out the bipolar 2 diagnosis. Baclofen is purely a bystander according to current research,works on different lobes of the brain.. If you are bipolar 2, you can look at a pet scan and actually see small temporal lobes and other brainstructure changes.


BUT do NOT take an antidepressant, its the exact opposite of what you take. You take a mood stabilizer

Also, of those on the bipolar spectrum, Bipolar 2 patients are much higher suicides.
AND they are eespecially prone to self medicate the low state with alcohol, and the hypomania state as well.Thats why a mood stabilizer rather than baclofen is probably what should be discussed with your psychiatrist

[JustIan]

JustIan's Baclofen Redux

Ne,

I'm sure there is someone out there that has used bac to become sober, titrated down, and successfully stayed sober. I'd imagine that they'd be someone that had a track record of being able to abstain by just saying no to themselves. After being at a switch dose on baclofen for awhile and getting the depression sorted out, I thought I might be able to do that. Didn't happen. I had only planned on being off bac long enough to get settled on the other meds, which I did; Its just that I began drinking heavily in situations that I would have had one beer and called it quits on bac.

To answer your question about the sertraline, its an effective enough AD, but I was never seriously depressed prior to baclofen. At least I didn't think that I was. My most significant issue was social anxiety, which I effectively managed by sheer force of will. Sertraline helps me focus outwards, and kind of turns off the overly analytical egoistic narrator that constantly used to remind me of how everything I said or did could be interpreted by other people. Its pretty significant in that regard. Its known as being one of the less sedating ADs due to its dopamine reuptake inhibitory properties. Its also pretty effective for ADHD types; It helped me with that, but it won't substitute adderal if you are inattentive at our age.

I did take modafinil, and it was awesome for inattention and the sleepiness that baclofen related insomnia, and baclofen alone, causes. IIRC, modafinil acts as a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, which increases PFC dopamine like ritalin and adderall. It makes sense that it would help with ADD. Unlike the stimulants, it isn't known to be habit forming, or have abuse potential. I had an allergic reaction to it, so I quit. That's probably good, cause it cost about 200 US a month for an every other day dose.

penelope67,

I found MWO about six months beforehand and had tried baclofen, but found that the side effects were too severe to do my job. Its ironic: I made mistakes in the field during that first trial, which was a careful and very conservative one, that were worse than anything I had ever done half-drunk. I quit the baclofen for about a month; in that time, my partners asked me to resign from the company that I was an owner of. Unemployed for the first time in my adult life, I took my evening case of ice beer habit into a 2 case habit. Stopped working and working out, gained 20 lbs, decided to get back on the baclofen.

From what I remember, I took 150 mgs the first few days, drinking heavily. I basically was trying to have to bac make me pass out before I could get too drunk --didn't work, but within the first week I had lost the urge to drink. I also went a little crazy for awhile: every stuffed closet in the house got completely emptied and filed, donated, or tossed out. I slept about 4 hours a day in 2 sessions and ate nothing. Despite all that, I was full of energy. When the wall hit, it really hit.

I went from loving my 9 buck an hour, 60 hours a week factory job, that I somehow managed while attending 15 hours of upperclassmen-level classes, to being in absolute terror of the idea of showing up. This gradually got worse over two weeks. I quit the job, stayed in school and did well, and continued to be sober on baclofen. Overall everything was pretty OK. I was just miserable and started to wonder about stupid shit, like if I really loved my wife, or if i was better off dead than worrying my family with all my issues.

When the mania subsided, I added 50-75 mgs at times in order to help with drinking. I could keep it in check pretty well that way, and even started taking 3 days off per week. I was trying to chase the anxylotic feeling I got from it the first few months, but It hasn't worked. Fortunately, other things are helping now, so I think I can handle it.

To be clear, I think that I reached indifference quick;y because I went into mania from lack of sleep and some particularity in the way baclofen affected my brain. It isn't hard to abstain when you have more fun than you've ever had carving a pumpkin (which I did) I think that I maintained it because I thought baclofen was a cure for all my issues. In a manic state of mind, the idea that a gaba b antagonist could be solely responsible for all my self-apparent greatness seemed at the time to be the final death throes of the old me.

I'm back on again, and I did titrate quickly, to about 75 a day. I can feel the sleepiness at this dose, and my blood pressure is doing awkward stuff. It did that before, but I weighed a lot less, so it was lower overall, and not a problem. I won't increase in dose until the side effects subside to the point where they were when I got to the last dose. Unlike before, I have my shit together now and have responsibilities. I can;t afford to go all out and I don;t really need to.

[bleep]

JustIan's Baclofen Redux

Hey Ian,

I also got manic and depressed, but mine where in much more concentrated bursts, perhaps because my titration was foolishly rapid. The depression only lasted a night (so not really a depression, obviously), and it was more of a headfuck than a depression, but various forms of mania persisted for a while. Everything settled down after a while though, and life is pretty much as what I'd imagine normality to be like now.

I hope you manager to find a balance.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

JustIan's Baclofen Redux

Hi, JustIan.
I was incorrect in my assessment of my own reaction and in understanding what hypomania is. I was definitely hypomanic and loved it. Every minute of it. Except the niggling doubt that it was too good to be true. And it was. When I woke up one morning without it I was devastated. I was never profoundly depressed, but after reading about hypomania I can see that I was definitely depressed. I don't know why I didn't stay that way. Probably upped my bac dose, or lowered it or something. And the adderall helped create artificial focus and clarity for a while.

I am definitely, without question, probably pretty profoundly ADD. It is extremely frustrating and I am very scared that if I don't get it under control I will not be able to complete school. Now that adderall doesn't work at all (not even a little, no matter what amount I take) I am looking for other solutions. I hope it's modafinil. I'll start that this week. The other problem with adderall is that it didn't fix what was wrong, the way I feel that baclofen fixed what was wrong. I don't want a bandaid or artificial stimulant.

I share all of this in the hope that you might have some insight. I am very grateful that I can correctly label my experience with hypomania. I can't imagine how much else I need to learn in order to take better care of myself...

And yes, there are accounts here of a couple of people going completely off of baclofen and remaining sober. (Bminor most recently.) There are many more relapses. Do you really think the answer is willpower? Maybe. I'm staying on HDB.

Guardian was a big influence on the way I thought about the disease--and when I was still drunk, I had myself convinced that you were some sort of MWO angel/guardian thing. :H

Hope you're holding it all together, that it's a profoundly different kind of year for you, and that you'll continue to share your experience.
Ne