Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

[Lo0p]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

Oh I hear from him daily. He's not with us yet, if you get my drift.

[LadyLush]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

LoOp,

Oh yes I get your drift. I hope he shakes this.

Just glad you are hearing something.

Thanks

LL

[Greg]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

He says he has been in hospital, which is the best place for him at the moment.

[Bminor]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

He's alive... seems fairly coherent tonight. Had an e-mail from him earlier. Wish this wouldn't have happened.

[bleep]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

I have had a couple of very coherent and sensible emails from Bill overnight. I've mentioned that he should post to set minds at rest, but apparently he has been banned. He can't create another account because he was banned from an IP address level.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

You've got to be kidding me. Right?

I can't and won't participate here on this or anything related to Bill/c0ffee/Bluto/cantstop/jonnyswallows/the Native American personae. [EDIT: I am not sure I can let this go. But I might try.] In MY humble opinion it's dangerous to participate in a discussion about a man who is so sick that he can carry on as different characters for months and months at a time. C0ffee was here, what, a year ago?

He has a grudge, a monetary motive, and an agenda to perpetuate misinformation about how to take baclofen, and what is wrong with people who experience side effects. When he is challenged to support his misinformation he begins to make excuses and talk nonsense. This happened months ago.

People have been completely banned and thoroughly discredited for FAR LESS than the egregious "mistakes" made by Bill/etc... FAR LESS.

Have you actually READ what he's written under any or all of those personas? All of them are consistently inconsistent. Some are relatively incoherent, even when he was (presumably) not suffering from a psychotic episode.

Add to that fact that you are taking a drug made by a man who is insane, in a lab that is likely unregulated, with no oversight, and no repercussions should you find a bad vial. None. He has no incentive to make sure that his baclofen is "pure" or "without additives" or anything else. None. He is a one man show cooking up baclofen in god knows where under god knows what.

Don't get me wrong. If I knew how to make bac, I'd do exactly the same thing. My first impulse was to offer him my support, whatever that was. (Not that he'd take it. but whatever.) And then I realized that he lost his mind in ways I can't comprehend, has absolutely no oversight, and thinks he was sent from heaven...for what purpose we can't be sure, because he doesn't make sense.

And still, STILL, people make excuses for him and "trust" that he knows what he's doing when he mixes up the chemicals that will affect your brain chemistry? With the thought that it's more pure than the overseas pharmacies that actually have oversight? You're kidding right?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...elf-48134.html

This was in February 2011:

c0ffee;1068997 wrote: thanks for the replies guys. after I posted my experience I had a bit of regret in doing so because a felt that maybe I had no business posting anything bad about bac here. I replay the tape in my head every single day about all that happened to me and now that the dust has settled a bit, and I can think a little clearer, I can in a way see the positives along with the negative. I paid a huge price both monetarily and physically for what happened in this past episode and over the years. People that know what happened tell me that that I'll be okay; I'm young and I can bounce back. Anyway, I searched this site in and out looking for cases where people had a bad experience with bac hoping I would find something to explain what I was going through and found nothing. This was at a time when I was taking like 300mg's/day and experincing EXTREME anxiety and insomnia and was looking for a reason as to why this was happening.
Some would say that I'm crazy to even consider touching baclofen again but I still have to believe in something that seems to have worked for so many people. I don't think that I drink because I have a spiritual malady and I'm dishonest and need discipline. I think that I am dealing with a genetic predisposition coupled with a learned behavior. There is just too much evidence to support that it is a medical condition. I just think I rushed the bac protocol toward the end and not really sure if I needed doses that high and that fast.

btw Bill, I have called a few different malpractice firms and they all say I don't have a case. Its probably b/c of the nature of the circumstances for which I came to the ER to begin with however, this could NOT have been just AL withdrawal. It had to have been baclofen.

I have not had a craving or alcoholic thought since I left the hospital. People that know, which is very few, say that this episode was the turning point and must have scared me straight. This may definitely be a huge piece of the equation but in the past I have faced some other severe consequenses (job loss, girlfriend, friend & family loss, legal issues; etc) but oddly enough the cravings still returned within a few days, sometimes hours or even minutes or seconds, and I succumbed and fell victim once again. I do not have to fight off cravings right now. Even with the bouts of anxiety and insomnia, I never once have the thought of a drink being the quick fix to it all like I did in the past. I don't know what to make of it. maybe something happened to me in that coma or maybe I took so much f'ing baclofen beforehand that it triggered that threshold respnonse or maybe it's only been a few weeks and I would be a fool to think anything after such a short period of time... maybe this all did just scare me freakin' straight but why no cravings? I'm not worried about the anxiety and insomnia. I don't think that I would be human if I didn't have it. Now I have some serious things to be anxious about and any person on the planet would lose sleep over them. I need A LOT more time to be able to make any kind of summation at all.
I'm taking between 50 and 70mg's of bac/day and plan on talking to Dr. L in the next few days. I really don't see any reason to go up on the dose at the moment b/c it doesn't make any sense right now but I'll see what he says. Definitely taking things slow right now all around though. Need to minimize the stress levels as much as possible.

I had offline correspondence with c0ffee once in which he told me stories about partying in NYC. Once was on chat with a couple of other people. (Bleep, were you there that night? I think we were all women, but I can't remember the others. Serenity, maybe?)

It was all lies. See this from November 2011:

terryk;1210178 wrote: The whole story is quite true - he probably meant propofol, not propanolol. GABAa agents will not not touch GABAb withdrawal unless given in 10X-100X strengths that is given in GABAa withdrawal. Haloperidol is often used as well. Cyproheptadine shows promise as well, but nothing works like reinstituting the GABAb agent. It's all over the medical literature and I have done extensive research on it. I have also been hospitalized for baclofen overdose/psychosis and my dose was vastly restricted which induced withdrawal. I don't have the time right now, but I will post more in detail later if anyone would like specifics.

-tk

Bluto;1210181 wrote: no dude, I know its a lie b/c I wrote the damn thing when I was shitfaced and I made no sense after reading it
It's not real, I was drunk when I wrote it

And this:


Ne/Neva Eva;1210486 wrote: Bluto, are you coffee?

Bluto;1210557 wrote: No I am mustard

For those that don't read regularly, it might be hard to see all of the consistently bizarre information posted by Bill under that name and many pseudonyms. Some of it is quite dangerous, including the information posted by c0ffee, but there is much, much more. It's so bizarre, in fact, that it wasn't even worth mentioning. Simply another nutter post, mostly harmless, and when it wasn't, some of us took exception and action. Terryk most consistently and effectively. There's more. Much more.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

This is from this thread:
Hospitalization and baclofen - Page 2 - My Way Out Forums

Bluto;1210196 wrote: no Terryk, you are living a fantasy
To think that a high dose benzo cannot replace a high dose of baclofen is like "Dorothy not in Kansas" type stuff
It all boils down to the "excitability of the neurons in the GABA system"
Baclofen is a "weak" player in the game
Benzodiazepines are a "STRONG" player in the game. Baclofen works on basic level stuff like spasticity. Benzos work on the whole GABA system A and B
Thats why its so great for panic attacks, seizures, alcohol withdrawal, baclofen withdrawal, it works on all withdrawals except for opiioids

The whole thing is a fantasy. Baclofen is not better than a benzo at all. Baclofen works on a mild level and has its benefits, meaning nonaddictive.
This is stuff is just nonsense, benzos ARE the treatment for high dose baclofen withdrawal which is as rare as rockinghorse poop

Im out, Ill see you guys/gals in the Neverending Story forum

terryk thoughtfully posts the research to validate the fact that benzodiazapenes do not actually offer a substitute for bac withdrawal. Another fact that the doctor (really???) ignored.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

Reggie;1235252 wrote: lets cast the whole bang lot adrift guys ...and get back to the main game ..getting sober

I will. But people's lives are at stake and we are talking about more than a year's worth of active deception. Dangerous facts being bandied about as though they were coming from doctor. The fact that he repeatedly and religiously discredits the only legal way for most of us to get baclofen...And it turns out he has a financial motive to do so. In the last two weeks alone he has posted no less than TWO DOZEN times the name of his lab and the website link. It is inconceivable that we allowed that to happen. Inconceivable. But of course, he did it under a pseudonym so that it seemed as though it was from someone who was being helped by baclofen.

And listen, whoever suggested around here that his mental health (or rather lack of it) has anything to do with xanax has never taken a xanax. There is NO WAY that this is related to a benzodiazepine. None.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

ha. gotcha, Reg. but didn't mean to and will delete if you'd like.

Here's more:

Bluto;1233022 wrote: Depends on his diagnosis, I doubt he's an alcoholic, just self-medicates with it. He's got some sort of mood disorder just from his postings I read. "
Not the typical one of us drunkards.]


In a perfect world he'd be hospitalized for 30 days under camera and constant surveillance to see how he changes.Yeah rightso theyll just throw med after med at him until soemthing works.
Valium doubt it, but who knows. We arent in the room with Greg and his Doctor andtheir discusssion

There is a ton of "medical advice" and "diagnosis" from our very own Dr. Bill P. Much of it telling people that they are not truly alcoholics or must have something else terribly wrong with them if they are having side effects.

I've changed my mind and will continue with this if I need to. It's too important to let go. I think.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

Medical advice from 12/22:

Bill.P.;1231241 wrote: Its the benzos not the baclofen
Taper off both completely

Take 250 mg of test, no soy milk and you'll be good to go. THey have estrogenmimickers in them. Also take anastrazole .25mg day to even lessen estrogen production,. That could be a cause too.Too much aromatase.
Dont do it all at once.
Try each therapy at a time

Then if that doesnt work, when you get your health insurance, make an appointment with an endocrinologist just to make sure there isnt a zebra as a diagnosis instead of a horse
Bminor's reasonable response to a post that made absolutely no sense and was completely unrelated to the topic:

Bminor;1231285 wrote: BillP you crack me up.

That was recent, but this has happened since Bill.P. returned, starting with his very first post.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

September 19th:

Bill.P.;1179521 wrote: Aww, well just throw in some T3 and clenbuterol along with some HGH frags. You won't be able to keep the weight on.
Although if you throw in the thyroid drug T3, its not muscle sparing so you'd need an anabolic like anavar. Which is a steroid for women.
And steroids are just a base cholesterol ring, you already take them if you eat eggs. But some cholesterol rings have different functional groups that are "chemically attracted" to certain "keyholes".
And just tell the messenger RNA to hold nitrogen, in other words, the mRNA says build muscle, the added benefit is it tells liprotein lipase, the enzyme required to store fat, not to store fat.

And of course I am joking, you dont need that stuff, you shouldve known that because I was laughing when I typed. You seem to got it figured out, why make yourself a walking pharmaceutical store. Just bantering, however, that's a pretty damn good cycle I joked about for you.
So up your test to 750mg with the anastrazole which is an aromatase blocker
Add 20 mg anavar bid
Add 20mg of winstrol for tendon growth
Skip the melanotan 2, youre too tan as it is I just realized.

You'd be right up there with Brad Pitt

Not chemicals, hormones with a chemical structure as all things are lol. Even you. I can take an agg yolk, extract the cholesterol, change a few functional groups on the ring and make you famous. Or more famous, or use that cholesterol and make a birth control pill, to make you Chaz Bono's mother (figure that joke out)

And Im just mucking around of course, just thought Id get a crack in. And yeah I only recommend steroids for guys with wasting diseases such as burn victims or HIV wasting syndrome where it extends life tremendously.

Youre doing well for yourself. How mucha bench? lol

This was in this thread: https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ght-44665.html

It was in response to some pictures that lo0p posted about his trip. COMPLETELY unrelated to anything in the thread, previous posts, or offline correspondence. Bill is talking about anabolic steroids, T3 is a medication used to treat thyroid disorders, and I have no idea what the rest of the gibberish is.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

But it sounds awfully knowledgeable doesn't it? Easy for people to get confused or think he's an authority. Turns out he may be very smart but he is insane.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

From page 6 of this thread:
https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...l-p-49878.html
I had to cut and paste in order to include all of the things I was responding to. His response was to get mad and disappear.

Morning, Bill.
Thank you for your extended and thoughtful response.
We haven't had the chance to get to know one another. I'd like to start this conversation with some sort of mutual understanding. It seems that you are held in some esteem by some people around here whose judgement I trust, so I'm just going to assume the rest is simply based on that misunderstanding.

That said, I take umbrage with a number of assertions that you make. It always concerns me, in both real and in virtual life, when people make assertions based on science, research or fact, without supplying the actual science, research or facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill.P.
I have to tend to agree with you on the manufacturing side-effects, however, they definitely feel real to them. That's why a physician is there in an ideal situation to reassure the patient, assess them, change dosing etc...

People are manufacturing side effects? And a doctor would be able to figure this out and allay their fears? I'm pretty sure that I'd fire any physician who suggested that the physical symptoms I was experiencing in response to taking a medication off label, one without a single study related to my disease and taken at 3 or 4 times the FDA approved amount, were in my head. The recent study commissioned in the Netherlands has capped the dosage of baclofen prescribed for the patients at 200mg/day at the most because they are unsure of the side effects of going any higher. I presume that they are basing this on scientific research. There isn't any, of course. Addolorato was recently quoted saying that he would not prescribe more than 90mg/day and he is one of the original researchers who made the connection between baclofen and craving reduction. At 30mg/day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill.P.
I said its probably psychological reaction ... So I am loathe to tell anyone online that what they are having going on is not real. Guess what the response would be, yup, Id be an asshole. It does seem that sideeffects occurs at a much higher percentage on chatboards than in the research. But although small. there will be people with real side effects as well. Online, it would be impossible to separate the two populations, so we could easily be wrong by saying its in their head and not only be wrong Theyd just call us assholes, which would be correct as we are assuming that they arent part of the real population experiencing side effects.
Guess we should just keep our mouths shut on that topic

And yet you DID suggest that what they (we) have going on is not real. I'm not name calling, not by any stretch. I'm intrigued. I'm also very wary. Lots of people come around here making assertions out of the blue without the information to back it up. I've learned to ignore them. However, you come recommended and have some interesting ideas. Doesn't mean I'm not wary, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill.P.
No worries mate,
So just to clarify. I think I have wrote extensively

I'm worried. Where exactly have you written?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill.P.
I have found out of a few thousand correspondences online to be approximately 3.5% disregarding other obvious or suspected reasons.

Again, where?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill.P.
This matches quite well with the 5% of users on I believe the continuum I am speaking of who do not posess the ability to respond to baclofen in terms of muscle spasticity in terms of its GABAb response. Since GABAb response is the mechanism strongly theorized behind the mechanism in which baclofen works to ameliorate response. With both understanding why the mechanism is not working in patients with spasticity and understanding why it is not working nearly the same number in internet correspondence with is admittedly is somewhat subjectively controlled in terms of rejection based on what I deem obvious confounders to avoid obvious spurious relationships with causality of side-effects. But the n-value is well over a thousand in my subjective criteria of email correspondence. It is our single best guess as to the potential of my theory of BRE-MACRO coupled with the studies on resistance in intrahecal baclofen at the same rate
Which is Baclofen REsistant- MAlignant Central Reward-system Overactivity
Or BRE-MACRO for short

Your point is taken that there will be a certain percentage of people for whom baclofen will not work in terms of combating their addiction. One doesn't need, necessarily, to find a correlation in scientific research to assume that fact. That said, I have no idea how many people are able to be helped with high-dose-baclofen treatment for addiction. Do you?

"It is our single best guess...of my theory..." hmmm. Based on what? For whom and for what purpose is your theory created?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill.P.
I will clearly outline my support for this

When? I've seen quite a few verbose responses, with more than a few suggestions that you will back up your information when you have time. None have been forthcoming. I too can write a long, wordy and inane response in mere minutes, so I understand that perhaps your time is not being spent simply responding, but full of other things that life entails. However, and this is a big but, you make A LOT of assertions, suggest a lot of conclusions, and couch them in scientific language based on research that you have not provided. I am wary, Bill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill.P.
as it describes most people as no side effects and at the other end of the continuum in this small spectrum a wide array of very individual responses to baclofen in the less than 5%. It is varied, primarily female, I would estimate 80% which is female
I have been quite clear. I state the side effect profile is slim in comparison to most drugs based on evidence based medcinine However given the large n-value of users who are using baclofen on this site. No doubt people will be posting true baclofen side effects. There is no doubt about that and no one online can tell another person they have not met, that they are feeling side effects> If you are feeling side effects, the first clue is the patient saying "hey, I am feeling side effects" and is the gold standard for assessing if in fact, they are feeling side effects.

And yet you assert, as fact, that people who suffer from side effects are likely suffering from an underlying psychiatric disorder. And you suggest that the nature of that disorder would be rather severe. (schizoaffective etc...) Again, without any back up or correlation from which we can draw our own conclusions.

You've even gone so far as to suggest to someone on here that they suffer from such a disorder or an underlying medical issue (low testosterone) without having any idea of what that person has done in the past or is experiencing now. Both of which are very relevant in that particular case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill.P.
the only thing I can hang my hat on, you can probably read my posts and find I am consistently couching my language is terms of, probable, maybe's, continuum's spectrums.
...
Can I point to a few studies, yup, will do soon.

Your hat, Bill, is without a rack. I cannot actually read your posts. They're gone. You did not couch your conclusions about side effects in terms of probables. You asserted them as fact based on your research. Which we have yet to see.

How soon is soon? Is that OA soon? As in never. Or is that soon as in, I need a day to look at my extensive emails and will post the links to the relevant information sometime today. Hopefully before we are subjected to more conclusions and assertions based on this research.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill.P.
I say what the best program I believe is for baclofen use, its a combo of motivated infidivuals who go to meetings like AA or what I have dubbed baclofen anonymous with the same principles as AA with a focus on health rather than coffee and cigarettes.

Agreed. And I can actually back that up with recent scientific research.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill.P.
I dont understand where you cannot fall into my approach. That whatever you experience in side effects is real. However, the side effect profile is 3-5% to where a person probably should quit taking baclofen.

So you've couched your assertions in ways that are unimpeachable? That people who have debilitating side effects, for instance, are in need of psychiatric intervention? That 80% of them are women?
What are the side effects that would preclude someone from trying to take baclofen under any and almost all circumstances given the results of continuing to drink alcoholically? You state those facts, though I take issue with your numbers there as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill.P.
My recent, and extended experience on these forums would suggest otherwise,...

I'm not sure how recent your experience is, or how far reaching, Bill. There have been many, many people who have given up on baclofen very recently because of the side effects they experienced. Many of them men. There have also been a couple of instances where men who have reached indifference, but titrated down to little or no baclofen, are experiencing side effects unlike what they did the first time they titrated up.

Hi, Bill. My name is Karen. I was an alcoholic. I took baclofen for 7 months before I reached indifference. I had terrible side effects. Some of which I had never read about or heard about before I experienced them. That was much more frightening than the ones I experienced that I had heard about.
I have no underlying psychiatric disorders, prior to, during or since my baclofen titration. I have been to many mental health professionals in order to figure out what was "wrong" with me, and been diagnosed with depression and ADHD. I have not suffered from, or been treated for depression in a decade. The ADHD diagnosis was completely erroneous. It's very difficult to concentrate, or do well in school, regardless of one's IQ, when one is consistently drunk, I think you'd agree. Turns out that what ails me is the inordinate amount of booze i was pouring into my system on a daily basis for a couple of decades.
I also don't have any major physical problems that would explain the side effects I experienced. I have the tests to back that up, because I was determined to find my way out and needed to understand why I was struggling so mightily when for others it seemed relatively effortless.

I understand that this is a very extended post. I hope you'll forgive if it's unnecessarily verbose. I felt that your comments deserved a thorough response.
/>
Ne

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

Finally, someone mentioned to me that Skeptic101 fit in with the other characteristics of Bill.P.'s characters. I didn't see the connection until this morning. Skeptic showed up first on Bill's re-introduction thread and had this to say:

skeptic101;1119452 wrote: After lurking for awhile i am quite certain Bill.P. is actually Dr. Ameisen, you are full of shit if you dont post under your real name asshole. You spew the same garbage as his verbatim and you don't back it up as he doesn't. Piss off with your theories

Several times Bill P has referred to OA as a friend, a colleague or someone who knows less than he, himself, does.

This is not an isolated case of a guy with an episode of anything. This is a case of a guy with a serious long-term mental illness parading as many characters and he endows them with their own stories and histories. It is intricate, premeditated, and very, very scary. For him, I'm sure, even more than for us. I hope he gets help, but I also hope you are not deluded by the promise of cheap "clean" baclofen or a history with a man about whom you may not know much at all. Many psychopaths are very charismatic. And they are almost all very, very smart.