Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

[fluff]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

Just wondering why people don't get their prescriptions through a legitimate source-like your own doctor? I have been hearing reports of prescription drugs being not what they are but just chemicals being made in foreign countries-like China- using ingredients like detergents,
and using food coloring to make the product look authentic.
What's so wrong with going to a real doctor?

[FlyAway]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

fluff;1238933 wrote: Just wondering why people don't get their prescriptions through a legitimate source-like your own doctor? I have been hearing reports of prescription drugs being not what they are but just chemicals being made in foreign countries-like China- using ingredients like detergents,
and using food coloring to make the product look authentic.
What's so wrong with going to a real doctor?

I would lose my job if I went to a real doctor and used my health insurance.

[GingerDust]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

FlyAway;1238937 wrote: I would lose my job if I went to a real doctor and used my health insurance.

I PM'd you about that FlyAway. It's not an either-or. If you are in the US, you can have real a doctor advising about all this. You use can use your health insurance (and take on the record of all that) or not, as you choose. You don't have to have the baclofen for alcoholism thing recorded for all time in whatever damned data base that insurance companies use. The kicker is that you do not get to use insurance to pay for the prescriptions, again your choice. But, luckily for us, baclofen is cheap.

[GingerDust]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

fluff;1238933 wrote:
What's so wrong with going to a real doctor?

That depends on where you are. If you are some where health care is a given, go to a real doctor. If you are in the US, having the label of "alcohol abuse" could make you uninsurable, which means that you would either pay out the wazoo for health coverage or you would go without health coverage. The latter means that you would have to pay, out of pocket, for anything that might happen to you, including treatment for any illness, injuries from accidents, diseases,, etc. Where I live, not having insurance means not having access to a regular doctor. That means that whatever happens needs to be treated in an emergency room of a hospital, because ER's cannot refuse treatment if someone's life is on the line. If someone's life is not on the line at that very moment, too bad, no medical care for you.

That's what's wrong with going to a "real" doctor for addiction, at least in the US.

[Greg]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

fluff;1238933 wrote: Just wondering why people don't get their prescriptions through a legitimate source-like your own doctor? I have been hearing reports of prescription drugs being not what they are but just chemicals being made in foreign countries-like China- using ingredients like detergents,
and using food coloring to make the product look authentic.
What's so wrong with going to a real doctor?

In the case of baclofen, almost no doctors anywhere will prescribe it in the doses required to suppress alcohol cravings. The usual maximum recommended daily dose is 75-100 mg, whereas most who have found it effective in stopping their alcohol cravings have required much higher doses than this, e.g. 150-300+ per day.

Most doctors will not even prescribe lower doses for people to try, because baclofen is still unapproved for treatment of alcohol dependence and prescribing it is therefore "off-label", which many doctors are not comfortable with. Many/most are not even aware of this use of baclofen, and this is not helped by the fact that there are no controlled clinical studies of high-dose baclofen treatment of alcohol dependence (apart from an ongoing one in the Netherlands...although someone correct me if I am wrong here). All we really have is Dr Ameisen's own self-treatment case report, a report of treatment of another man in Dr A's writings, and self-reports on this forum by people who have taken it upon themselves to try this treatment after reading of Dr A's results. Some laboratory tests done on rats also exist. Clinical reports from Italy by Giovanni Addolorato et.al. in the early or mid 2000's only used up to 30 mg/day of baclofen from memory. Trying to get a doctor, even an addiction specialist, to prescribe huge daily doses of baclofen for indefinite periods of time just by quoting these things is almost impossible. Dr Levin of Chicage is one notable exception.

[Greg]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

Ok, just one more thing, and then I hope this does die out.

I just received a free shipment from Virtuous Labs, which was marked as being sent out on December 22. It contained 2 bottles/vials labelled as baclofen, one of which was broken. The third bottle is labelled as being tadalafil, which is a drug marketed as Cialis and used for treatment of erectile dysfunction (no I don't need it lol!) and also a form of hypertension.

I have written this here to highlight what several of us have said earlier, namely that there is a danger of receiving something that is not baclofen. I still have no proof that the vials labelled as baclofen are something different, but the tadalafil vial is the same shape and colour as the baclofen ones, so a real risk of mis-labelling could exist.

EDIT : On the VL site, there is actually a deal that includes 2 vials of baclofen plus 1 of tadalafil, so my free baclofen order just seems to have been mixed up with that deal, or he may have included a complementary vial of tadalafil for some reason. Not quite as alarming as I first thought, although my concerns remain.

[Greg]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

Despite my concerns about Bill, in several ways, I would never call him or anyone else here a "turd". We can debate this topic and post warnings without having to call him a name like that.

[Lo0p]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

It sure as hell sounds like her.

[Lo0p]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

What are we to you? Are we like your ex-boyfriend that you can't get over?

You're sick too. The difference is we don't care about you. Go to hell and stop bothering us.

[GingerDust]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

Zenstyle;1239040 wrote: By way of explanation.... we had a member (since banned) on here that was called TracyA... and she used to wreak havoc on the boards. This is starting to look all too familiar to me.

Ginger (or Tracy maybe)...
I am Ginger. I know no Tracy.


I'll say it once and for all. It is clear to ALL what has gone down with Bill and VL. If people don't want to buy baclofen from them, I don't blame them! But, for Gawd's sakes, give it a rest. And don't send me any more PMs insinuating ANYTHING. I don't want to hear it.

You don't want to hear it, but you keep posting to this thread, a discussion your entered into in full defense of your friend who deals in a wide array of illicit drugs. YOU are the one who started up with the PM's, not me! Not only do you keep posting, but you breached the terms that you agree to as a member here. I have done no such thing.

I will note that your tone has changed quite a lot. Your tone went from "live and let live" to "I would not take that stuff!"

I get that Bluto/BillP scratched your back and you feel obligated to do the same. I think I mentioned that in a post yesterday.

If you want no further discussion from me, please stop talking to me. It's an easy solution.

[Road to Recovery]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

GingerDust;1238960 wrote: That depends on where you are. If you are some where health care is a given, go to a real doctor. If you are in the US, having the label of "alcohol abuse" could make you uninsurable, which means that you would either pay out the wazoo for health coverage or you would go without health coverage. The latter means that you would have to pay, out of pocket, for anything that might happen to you, including treatment for any illness, injuries from accidents, diseases,, etc. Where I live, not having insurance means not having access to a regular doctor. That means that whatever happens needs to be treated in an emergency room of a hospital, because ER's cannot refuse treatment if someone's life is on the line. If someone's life is not on the line at that very moment, too bad, no medical care for you.

That's what's wrong with going to a "real" doctor for addiction, at least in the US.

Wow - that's some great health care system the US has. Try to get help for a disease and they may choose to cut you off from health care altogether.
I know for me, I would rather drink myself to death than run the risk of letting insurance companies know that I have a drinking problem.
Really does that make sense to anyone?

[GingerDust]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

Road to Recovery;1239189 wrote: Wow - that's some great health care system the US has. Try to get help for a disease and they may choose to cut you off from health care altogether.
That's the way it works. A health care provider charges the maximum that the market will bear, but an insurance company's real job is to avoid paying out anything. By law, both must maximize profits for their shareholders. The patients are either an asset or a liability. Welcome to a medical system based on capitalism. Sometimes it doesn't even help to have concrete coverage. People on Medicare/Medicaid have a hard time finding doctors who will see them because those programs pay a pittance to health care providers. All insurance companies pay a doctor to be a primary care provider on a per head basis, regardless of the health concerns of the patients. Doctors screen patients and accept only those who will minimize their work load and maximize their profits (they choose healthy people as patients). Providers are required to take in only a small percentage of people on state-sponsored programs. People with complicated heath issues in an area where there is shortage of doctors have NO access to routine medical care, even though they actually do have health coverage through state-sponsored programs. It is a terrible system. It is hard to imagine how a healthcare system could be worse than what is here now. Between 50,000 and 100,000 people in the US die each year due to lack of access to healthcare. It's a big deal.

I know for me, I would rather drink myself to death than run the risk of letting insurance companies know that I have a drinking problem.

I am not sure if you are being facetious, but the whole insurance company massive data base problem is very real. If you get red-flagged for any on-going health problem, diabetes for example, you're really kind of screwed in this system. The repercussions extend beyond healthcare to other areas, life insurance and employment, for example. A person's best bet is to avoid being red-flagged unless they're damn near dead. If a person gets red-flagged, they're going to have to be damn near dead to get treatment anyway, most likely in an ER. Someday I might get desperate enough to risk being red-flagged, but it would be a very last resort for me. Where a US insurance company is involved, your medical record follows you to your grave.

[GingerDust]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

Lo0p;1239134 wrote: What are we to you?

You are no one to me. You are the one who seems obsessed with Tracy. What did she do to you?

I do understand why people might be fearful over multiple log-ons. I think that it's at the heart of what happened here.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

Zenstyle;1239040 wrote: By way of explanation.... we had a member (since banned) on here that was called TracyA... and she used to wreak havoc on the boards. This is starting to look all too familiar to me.

Ginger (or Tracy maybe)...

Lo0p;1239086 wrote: It sure as hell sounds like her.

Lo0p;1239134 wrote: What are we to you? Are we like your ex-boyfriend that you can't get over?

You're sick too. The difference is we don't care about you. Go to hell and stop bothering us.

Ridiculousness. Unbelievable from senior members. Do what the rest of us, especially those of us who participate regularly in the meds threads do: Pay attention and read what members have written. It's very easy in case those of you who don't know how to do it want to learn. Click on the person's username at the top of their post. You'll have a couple of options, and one of them is to see ALL posts written by the username. I suggest that anyone who is feeling a bit nervous do exactly this. The rest of us know how to do it and use it as a tool to help people, and also to get to the TRUTH.

I have been done with this for some time now, but I will not sit idly by when someone, anyone, accuses a relative newcomer of being an impostor, when it is so clearly not the case.

This does no one any good. No one. We are not at cross purposes. I will try to remain focused on the goal as I understand it--helping others, offering support, getting support and for those still drinking against their will, a chance of sobriety. I hope you will too.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Bluto/Bill.P. and Virtuous Labs

Sorry about this indiscretion, Ginger.

First post, dated 10-4-2011, https://www.mywayout.org/community/f1...est-30074.html

GingerDust;1187563 wrote: I'm new here. Not really new, I posted a few times a few years ago. I don't remember much about it because I was drinking heavily and on topamax. The MWO program did not work for me so I'm trying other things now. I go to AA once a week. I'm not crazy about most of the meetings but that one is OK.

Anyway, nice to meet everyone.
Second post, same thread:


GingerDust;1188323 wrote: Thanks everyone. I still have the MWO book around here somewhere. Maybe I'll hunt it up. I think the MWO program is fine. Me and topa didn't get along though. I'm trying baclofen and it's even worse. I may be allergic or something. Ug. Anyway I don't have much time to post but I read a lot from work during the day. So thanks for being here.