if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

[Ne/Neva Eva]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

Veterinarians do actually prescribe bac for cats. And dogs. She just needs to get her to the doctor.

[Otter]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

Ne, Swim and his cat don't exist. You have to figure out what it means.

But thanks, that is very interesting because Baclofen works on what is called the amygdala which animal have. Humans have an "old" brain which is similar to animals and they also have a cerebral cortex which animals don't. What that shows is that this disease is a condition of the "automatic" systems of the brain, ie., the fear and anxiety center, rather than the thinking part of the brain. For some they can use their rational thinking part of the brain and with some help either with some medication or counselling, AA etc. they can get back to normal, but for someone who has brain damage to the old part of the brain through both stroke and concussion, it is an entirely different thing. The result is that they are steered towards therapies that don't work, make them worse because it involves social interaction and possibly the use do drugs which are not right for the condition but might work in others.

What I am trying to say is that much of what I have said over the past year may have been incorrect for most people here. Alcoholism can also cause brain damage which for many can be halted before it becomes severe or reversed by abstinence with the help of medication like Baclofen, counselling, AA or will power and then good nutrition and vitamin therapy as in Seven Weeks to Sobriety but some who have been here and not responded to Baclofen may have had other brain issues which Baclofen does not address. The result is that some here come across as desperate because Baclofen might not be working and they don't understand why. Then you get people starting meta discussions saying this is because of some hidden agenda. Then, if out of desperation, you go after advice from people who are not liked her you are accused of being subversive.

I suppose that is why I have gone quiet because I realize I am probably not helping the majority of people here by talking about issues which relate to a different and more serious condition. I don't know and I don't want to alarm anyone and make their conditions worse out of fear. Equally though, there may be people here who have these issues and they should start looking at this as a neurological issue as well as a life style and psychological problem.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

Otter;1239723 wrote: Ne, Swim and his cat don't exist. You have to figure out what it means.
Dear Otter, I figured it out. It wasn't a bad metaphor. The thing is, I can also extrapolate that Swim and the cat do sort of exist. So any snappy comeback, even metaphorical, could be misconstrued or worse, hurt someone's feelings. Someone who has no interest in hurting other people. I have no interest in doing that. We are not on the same page, Otter, but we're in the same chapter in the same book.

Otter;1239723 wrote: What I am trying to say is that much of what I have said over the past year may have been incorrect for most people here.
...

I suppose that is why I have gone quiet because I realize I am probably not helping the majority of people here by talking about issues which relate to a different and more serious condition. I don't know and I don't want to alarm anyone and make their conditions worse out of fear. Equally though, there may be people here who have these issues and they should start looking at this as a neurological issue as well as a life style and psychological problem.

See? That is what I mean. You just summed up what I've been trying to figure out for the last year and a half. The information about baclofen that you've posted is absolutely fascinating. So are your thoughts about it all. But the vast majority of us do not suffer from other mental illnesses. We're alcohol dependent. (Or some other drug...)

Here at MWO we can only offer support and suggestions for those things we understand. And the raison d'etre is alcohol-dependence. Not other neurological malfunctions. I think we forget, many of us, how scary and overwhelming it is to come here and look for a way out of addiction. Any digression from that message adds to the scary and confusing.

It's one of the reasons that I've long hoped you would start a thread and hang out there. One place full of Otterisms for those of us that are simply fascinated by baclofen, the ramifications, the permutations, the implications! Oh my! It's a Whole New World. But then the scholarly debate, the disagreements over semantics, the sharing of exciting new info (arbac, for instance) would not be a distraction for the people who just. want. to. get. sober.
you know?

A scared and wounded animal is a terrible thing, regardless of how many legs it's running around on. It's a travesty when we can't get them help.
I'm glad we can offer some help/solace/support for at least some of the animals here.

[mario]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

[QUOTE=Otter;1239065}There is also a theory that, beyond craving, people drink because of a hypoglycemic condition whereby they need increasing amounts of sugar and eventually take alcohol which is refined sugar.

I made a complete ass of myself over the christmas period eating chocolate and I mean lots of it, When I stopped on new years day to get back into my healthy lifestyle I got the most affall sickness more like a massive hangover, Gout which I have always suffered from came back big time and as I always suffered attacks from gout after big drinking binges and stopping I was wondering is this what happened again this time,My plan now is when I get my energy back to get l-glutamine to stop the sugar cravings,and of course stop eating sweet things, Just thought I would share this. Another Interesting and informative thread :thanks:

[Otter]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

Alcohol is made from sugar and yeast. We can get yeast in our stomachs so if you eat a lot of sugar you actually make alcohol in your stomach. Strange but true. The treatment is to take something to kill off any yeast infection in your system. I got this from Seven Weeks. It requires treatment for the yeast infection.

Ne, it took me until today to figure it out myself. I just could not figure out what everyone was doing here. Sometimes I thought they were not actually alcoholics at all, just pretending and it seems so unfair that some people succeed where others don't and then if you don't succeed, everyone turns on them.

I think the thing with Baclofen is that if it does not work completely there is probably something else at work other than alcohol, and I don't mean "mental illness". I mean a brain lesion or damage of some sort from being born with it or perhaps having had a bump to the head. It is surprising how many people, when they think about it will recall having had a head injury at some point and the thing about these sorts of injuries is that they don't necessarily clear up for a very long time and can leave permanent damage which can cause all sorts of problems in how they interpret life and can cause huge anxiety and then drinking.

My problem is that this forum can be supportive for some but destructive for others so it is really important that people coming here realize how much of a life line it is and that not everybody is the same.

Oh well. Life goes on I suppose.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

No sugar?
Thanks, Mario. I've been struggling with the sugar thing. I can't decide how important it is to give it up, but you both make a good case for it.

Doggygirl and beatle would know about 7 weeks, sugar and yeast. Maybe bruunhilde, too.

[penelope67]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

Greg;1239626 wrote: Lastly, the lack of a partner, activities, goals, social groups, and interests in my life also strongly contributes to the desire to find fulfillment via chemical means. This is something I must work on myself, but it has been very hard in the past due to depression and addiction reducing energy and motivation to almost nil. Daily life as a depressed single alcoholic becomes one of zero self-esteem (even self-loathing), with cognitive abilities and personality reduced to almost zero as well. I have seen so many other alcoholics, and also non-addicts who are depressed or with mental problems that impair their social skills, in this state of mind and living a down-and-out lifestyle. Fortunately, things like therapy and rehab can address this part of the problem, although problems with brain chemistry also desperately need to be addressed.

wow Greg you just described my life to a T. ISOLATED. When I drink I become "normal" and feel I can go out of my house. of course my behavior eventually becomes abnormal after too many drinks. Manic even, which I attribute to Dopamine. Then the recovery period severe anxiety and attempts not to drink I am stuck alone, in some kind of overwhelming fear that prevents me from even leaving the house. Interestingly, if I have, by some miracle, gotten into a relationship I feel better in every way. When I read that Baclofen affects Oxytocin I wondered if that is why. Love, of course, is a drug. Either way 99% of the time I am trapped and alone and it is devastating.

[penelope67]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

TBI traumatic brain injury can have serious mental health repercussions. I myself hit my head in 3 different car accidents. Just the other day i read about 3 hockey players that committed suicide. The article discussed the likelihood that their many head injuries were to blame.

This year I want to commit to achieving deep relaxation to heal my poor body, mind and soul. This is hard bkz I have a lot of trouble focusing but I will try. I have begun by drawing mandalas which is kind of fun. i also have some hypnosis and meditation cds.

[penelope67]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

carbohydrates aka sugar is what carries Tryptophan over the blood brain barrier so the brain can make Serotonin. I always noticed when I take SSRI's that I crave A LOT of sugar. I figured this is bkz my brain is desperately trying to get what it needs to make serotonin. The Potatoes not prozac diet was always useful for that. You eat protein all day (source of Tryptophan) and then a potato at night (Carb). I always thought it was hilarious when i would eat the potato bkz I would literally pass out! When I stuck to the diet I usually woke up feeling nice and calm. In the Atkins diet book he writes about how certain people's bodies made alcohol out of Carbs. He had a whole bunch of stories about that. The yeast thing is interesting. I will have to look into that.

[Otter]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

penelope67;1239564 wrote: THANKS Otter!!!!!!!!!!!!! Such useful info! I am familiar with amygdala bkz of what I have read about PTSD. They are stilling trying to treat traumatized soldiers with talk therapy and antidepressants and do not address cortisol problems and amygdala problems. It is very sad bkz the studies are out there and pretty clear but this still refuse to apply what is known. This is the same for alcoholism of course. I remember the book 7 Weeks to Sobriety!! I am amazed she mentions baclofen as that book came out a long time ago (90's?) if I recall correctly. Another book I love that has similar aspirations between diet, supplements and alcoholism is, of course, "Potaoes Not Prozac". I always thought the whole idea that alcoholism was a minor version of schizophreinia to be fascinating. As you said it is just a matter of degrees... i try to be open and non judgmental. I got my Bac from VL and I just ordered a new batch yesterday. I am not in a position to get it another way and I am grateful for the opportunity VL offers. Thanks again for responding to my post...

Oops, sorry, I meant she gives a good description of what alcoholism is. I have Baclofen on the brain.

[penelope67]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

Baclofen on the brain...I know what you mean lol

[Otter]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

I don't know much about Gabapentin. Will look it up, thanks.
Have you visited the Baclofen UK site?
Here is an article on what alcoholism is: Scripps Research- News & Views, Researchers Find Key Mechanism in Transition to Alcohol Dependence

I have to say that I still feel the best combination for anxiety is definitely Baclofen and Propanalol or similar. Keeps the thoughts from whirring round. Sharpens the mind.

Most go now. I don't want to get addicted to this again.

Best wishes.

[suneelca]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

I don't think everyone who's alcohol-dependent is so because of an anxiety disorder, and that everyone who has an anxiety order is alcohol dependent. (This makes me long for my notes from my college logic class so I could express that in terms of As and Bs with equal signs or semi arrows between them or whatever those symbols are.)

What this thread has provoked is another round of thinking about my family, in which, to wit:

- I have been diagnosed as bipolar, and also with a bunch of other stuff, all of which seems to have gone away because of Baclofen.
- My mother has been diagnosed as bipolar -- although I've never really seen her being manic or really even hypomanic, and for many years was addicted to opiates. For some reason, that seems to have gone away of late because of a drug for fibromyalgia that I'll now have to ask her about.
- My brother has been diagnosed as at different times as bipolar, schizophrenic, or as schizoaffective (which I think is a cross between schizophrenic and bipolar -- the worst of both worlds). He has bounced in and out of jail for the past decade. When he's out, he drinks from morning until night. He is completely untethered from society. One suspects that he likes jail because it is a relatively structured and protected environment.

Having had a great experience on Baclofen, it is easy for me to project on my family and say, well, maybe what's really going on is some sort of hardware / software issue that has resulted in a strand of high baseline anxiety, of which the rest of the behavior is an expression. I'd love to see my mother and brother go on Baclofen and find out. But it is interesting to me that there are studies indicating that there has been some demonstrated efficacy with Baclofen with everything from autism to PTSD to anxiety to alcohol abuse.

My wife and I are now seeing what appears to be a high level of baseline anxiety in my three-year-old son. My wife is the daughter of a child psychiatrist, and my father is an MD, so we're both mindful of not trying to over-pathologize him. That said, the child psychiatrist we're taking him to thinks he might have a mild case of Aspergers. Not sure what to make of that. In terms of what I observe to the high anxiety component, can one give very low dose Baclofen to a three-year-old?

If I'm understanding this thread correctly, I guess the question I would put to folks out there is -- are there any other folks who have been diagnosed with a 'mental illness' (like me) who have seen all of those symptoms go away because they have been on Baclofen?

Now that I think about it, diagnoses in the mental health area are really difficult and hazardous. Right now the psychiatric community is really struggling over the DSM-V, unless it's now coming out? The diagnoses only matter to the degree in two senses -- they drive a course of therapy, and so an insurance company knows what to pay for, or, in advance of 'Obamacare' (which I love) taking effect in 2014, what to deny you coverage for. I've had at least four MDs shoot around in the dark until the fourth figured something out. So, yes, there are organic brain injuries, but in most of these situations, figuring out what's going is so, so, so elusive ...

[Otter]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

Sun

If you go to the Baclofen UK site there is an article about autism and Baclofen. There is a company called Seaside Therapeutics which has been working on Baclofen and have split the right side of the molecule off and are calling it Arbaclofen. The right side of the molecule has the beneficial effects and the left side has the side effects. You will see in the article that a child with autism was treated with Baclofen and the symptoms subsided. That is when the doctor got in touch with Seaside.

The result has been that Seaside did trials and Arbaclofen has proven much more effective than Baclofen so the FDA allowed those people to carry on using it on a compassionate basis before full approval is given which is expected next year.

You will also see an article in the English Guardian newspaper where Ameisen says his compulsive behaviour went away. Really, one could say that compulsive behaviours are the same as anxiety and manic behaviours as they all emanate from the same part of the brain. John Nash of "A Beautiful Mind" said that schizophrenia and bipolar are one and the same. I am not sure that is correct but it may be that some people with bipolar are diagnosed as schizophrenic and vice versa.

You will also find if you look into the statistics that the vast majority of people with bipolar medicate with alcohol so there is probably an overlap between alcohol related symptoms of depression and mania and "true" bipolar. Certainly, bipolar and GAD are coming to be viewed as the same illness and GAD is what Ameisen sees as at the root of addictive craving. I think the way Ameisen put it was that addictive craving is caused by a qualititive or quantitative deficiency of the amygdala and limbic regions of the brain. In other words, some people have a shortage of chemicals which calm that area of the brain and compensate with alcohol. These may be people, I think, who say they don't drink because of anxiety bu the disruption of neurotransmission brought on by alcoholism causes addiction. Others have an organic problem in the brain which they may be born with or might be caused by head trauma and this is a qualitative problem but may also be treated with Baclofen. Perhaps the first group recover more successfully and can titrate down or stop Baclofen once they get back to normal and maybe the latter group have to maintain a high dose throughout life because they have a permanent problem that has to be medicated for life.

That is my interpretation of it and I am not a doctor so it may be completely wrong. I think scientists and doctors are just starting to join all the dots together on this illness and why alcohol and Baclofen substitute for each other in replacing endogenous GHB.

So, yes, the children in the Seaside trial all had diagnoses of mental illness and Baclofen was used to treat them albeit less successfully than Arbaclofen.

[redhead77]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

Penelope, Dr Pfeiffer did believe very much in niacin (if you take an aspirin an hour before taking your niacin it might prevent the flush). His big thing is vitamin B6 and zinc supplementation in regard to pyroluria. Pyroluria causes a deficiency of these, along with high copper levels. There is a clinic in my neck of the woods. It's called the Pfeiffer Treatment Center. They profess a 80% success (meaning improvement) rate in the treatment of bipolar, schizophrenia, ADD, and autism (and some other things). Also, Carl Pfeiffer has done studies of people with criminal behavior, and found them to have profound biochemical imbalances. They've discovered this by running hair and blood though a database from prisoners in penitentaries. They've even looked at some famous ones.

Otter, you are correct. Yeast (Candida ablicans) does start in the gut. It's a normal flora for most people. It's when it grows out of control that it becomes a problem. It grows out of control via antibiotics, sometimes given in youth for ear infections and such, (some people start out life very early with this problem and it grows), poor diet containing many refined carbohydrates, steroids, and alcohol abuse. Traditional medicine doesn't believe in this condition. Most likely because there aren't definitive tests to diagnose it. It's based on symptoms. A byproduct of yeast is alcohol. So, if you have high levels of yeast in your body, you may have symptoms of foggy brain and other things. People with high levels of yeast will crave sweets, and many crave alcoholic beverages. The yeast needs carbohydrate to live and grow. If a person with Candida Related Complex stops drinking, they may continue to crave alcohol (I'm not saying if indifferent on baclofen, however). They will very likely crave sweets until the candida is brought to normal levels. Treating people with other conditions such as bipolar, ADD, autism, schizophrenia, ect, with a yeast free diet, often improves symptoms. I feel much better when I stick to this diet, but it's super hard to do.

I very much believe that some people use alcohol to alleviate hypoglycemic symptoms. I have, but I'm a true hypoglycemic.

Where does alcoholism stem from? I think it's multifaceted (I've been critisized for saying this, but I will remain thinking it.) I think the root cause is the brain, maybe the dopamine reward system, but many other factors can come into play (for some people).The adrenal glands and the stress response (cortisol) may be an important factor for some. It all comes down to this even with hypoglycemia and the anxiety that's caused from that. There are other comorbid conditions that can go along with alcoholism, as we've seen so much here on MWO.

*Ne, the elimination diet is one where you take out the most common allergy causing foods (wheat, dairy, soy, and some others) one by one. You see if you have improvement of symptoms. If you do, then you know it was the offending food contributing to the problem. If you still haven't found it, you move on to the next food.

EDIT: Oops. I think I might be on the wrong thread with this response, Ne. This will be the only post I'm doing. I hope you don't mind me putting it here, Penelope.