if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

[penelope67]

does anyone have any thoughts about what the disease of alcoholism might be?
is it a kidney disease? is it a disease of the nervous system?
i am curious what people think.
i was thinking kidney disease just bkz since I started taking the baclofen i get these weird tingly sensations right before i have to pee...:H

[PJS]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

Thoughts on the disease of Alcoholism

I have done a fair amount of research on this and lately have found some sites linking alcoholism, bipolar, autism and possibly schizophrenia. It is not clear if these are indeed related and if so are they degrees of the same disease or branches of a root disease.

Alcoholism, depression, bipolar run in my family. With a possible side dish of schizophrenia. (I don't think I will ever know for certain as my father would not talk about his disease and passed last November.

[penelope67]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

I have seen articles about Baclofen being used successfully for autism
and i also read a really fascinating article once about something in urine that was tested and alcoholics had low amounts of this chemical while schizophrenics had high amounts
in short alcoholism seemed to be a lesser version of schizophrenia
i will look for that article (i believe treatment for this condition was B vitamins)
but my question is more about which part of the body is 'sick"?? if alcoholism is organic disease
is it the brain? could it be the adrenals?

[Road to Recovery]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

To me - Addiction is caused by a chemical imbalance of the brain affecting the reward system. Many do not feel the "reward" from drinking therefore, it does not make them want or crave more. Then there are people like me that has a brain seems to constantly want the "reward".

I don't believe baclofen is a "cure" If I stop taking baclofen and try to drink like a "normal" person, I don't think I would be able to drink "normally". I think baclofen helps the brain fill the imbalance - blocks the reward sensation some get from alcohol, but it does not fix it. Kind of like Anti depressants. People who suffer from depression (speaking from experience) that take anti depressants feel normal while taking the med but when they stop taking it - the brain becomes deficient again and the person slips back into depression. We are not weak or failures we are just wired differently. Soory if this isn't very scientific...

[Road to Recovery]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

penelope67;1238799 wrote: I have seen articles about Baclofen being used successfully for autism
and i also read a really fascinating article once about something in urine that was tested and alcoholics had low amounts of this chemical while schizophrenics had high amounts
in short alcoholism seemed to be a lesser version of schizophrenia
i will look for that article (i believe treatment for this condition was B vitamins)
but my question is more about which part of the body is 'sick"?? if alcoholism is organic disease
is it the brain? could it be the adrenals?

In my opinion - it is the brain that is deficient - chemical imbalance... The rest of the body becomes sick from the intake of too much alcohol.

[penelope67]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

here is the article:
"...I concluded that schizophrenic patients, not given LSD, had the same substance in their urine as did some alcoholics who had been given LSD, but that it was not present in normal controls... At first we called it the unknown substance (US), and later the mauve factor because when developed on the paper chromatogram it stained a beautiful mauve. When it was identified we called it, more accurately, kryptopyrrole. We named the disease characterized by large amounts of mauve factor “malvaria,” but Dr. Pfeiffer later gave it the more appropriate term pyrolleuria..."

) Relationship to diagnosis - The mauve factor was found in the following categories of patients:

Diagnosis; percent with the diagnosis mauve factor

Normal subjects 0

Physically ill
Adults 10
Children 10
Mood disorders 20
Alcoholics 20

Schizophrenics
Early, not treated 75
Recovered 0
Not recovered 50
DoctorYourself.com - Urine Test for Psychosis

[penelope67]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

agreed Road to recovery! brain chemical imbalance is no doubt the likely culprit...

[Ne/Neva Eva]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

Hmmmmm. That was a cursory read I gave the info you posted but schizophrenic urine is mauve...and alcoholic urine W LSD is mauve. And sick ppl and children. Not sure that's so conclusive. Ya know? However there are some real and explicit definitions of alcoholism on some govt websites, some professional websites and some non-profit websites. They offer very different lists of symptoms for this disease and other diseases. Not sayin nothing. Except there is real, legitimate and meaningful info out there. I'd link it but I'm on my phone and supposed to be doing stuff! Ugh.
Sometimes other people's expectations get in the way of my interests. Itsapity, I know.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

Addolotato has an interesting review that he just published. Cassander found it and sent it to me. I don't think he's posted it here yet. You can find the abstract though. Also the hmmm. Naada?

Also, tre, if our doc can't find something on epic rates he doesnt think it exists. :H I love the man too but we don't always agree. Rarely, actually. But I'm like Pene about docs.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

Oops just combined two threads.

[penelope67]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

I wasn't trying to be conclusive Ne, just concurring with what PJS said about schizophrenia based on what i had read. Plus there is far more info than just that article, that particlular doctor wrote a book and i got it from the library. Just skimmed it really. he promotes the use of Vit B, esp Niacin. I myself LOVE Niacin esp right after the red flush, it gives me a huge sense of calmness and wellbeing. But only the kind that doesn't block the red flush. i would be happy to read Addolotato's research if you send me the link...

[Otter]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

The emerging theory is that alcohol and addictive craving is an anxiety disorder, a brain disorder of the amygdala and limbic systems and it is treated with Baclofen because Baclofen mimics GHB which the body produces to calm anxiety. If one has a shortage of that chemical then one also drinks because alcohol also mimics GHB. So, Baclofen substitutes for alcohol in its calming effect of this part of the brain. That is my reading of Ameisen's theory and it is what sets Baclofen apart from other medications.

There is also a theory that, beyond craving, people drink because of a hypoglycaemic condition whereby they need increasing amounts of sugar and eventually take alcohol which is refined sugar.

On top of this is the view that people drink because of psychological issues, ie., because of real life depression issues etc, just to escape, blot things out and that alcohol then affects the brain and neurotransmission, causing a cycle of alcohol consumption. And, of course, most people just drink because they enjoy it and it makes them feel good but it, again, takes over by damaging the brain and so on.

Joan Larson in Seven Weeks to Sobriety gives a very good description of what Alcoholism is and even when she wrote the book in the 90's she recommended using GABA as a relaxant, recognizing that it helped with anxiety. She also recommends diet change to sort out hypoglycaemia but her main emphasis is on brain repair through vitamin therapy. She claims a 75% recovery rate but the treatment requires taking huge amounts of vitamins and also, in severe cases, Buspar in an initial detox. She also describes different types of alcoholics.

How it ties in with other illnesses is simply that conditions like manic behaviour and obsessiveness are just different ways of describing anxiety, ie., the disorder of this part of the brain. There are a lot of studies of brain scans of people with these other conditions and they all relate to the same area of the brain so they are just variations on the same theme, which is why Baclofen is such an interesting medication with so much potential and why companies like Seaside Therapeutics are working on enhanced versions of Baclofen such as Arbaclofen which is the right side of the Baclofen molecule and does not have the side effects.

I note the references in some posts to opportunists posting on this forum. I am not aware of any. There are few people out there making any money out of Baclofen treatment and the ones who do have got involved because they have alcohol issues themselves and have, like Ameisen, been looking for treatment for themselves. Some are doctors or were doctors like Bill P and Phill and they have turned to marketing their services, I would say, because of their interest in this new field. Others would question their motives but because the rules of this forum prohibit promoting of other businesses, they are generally forced off this forum, for good or for bad. Because of the rules of the forum and because this is a place to advertise to the largest number of people interested in alcoholism, some try inventive ways of getting around the rules by pretending to be someone else, ala Bluto. Personally, I think it is a sign of inventiveness and cheekiness and I found Bluto very amusing. Obviously there are serious issues about supply and safety and if it were not for these issues one might applaud the attempt to get around prescription requirements and the rules of this forum. There are a lot of sites which sell drugs which give one a legal high so one has, I believe, got to keep things in perspective and accept that VL was set up with the best of intentions.

[penelope67]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

THANKS Otter!!!!!!!!!!!!! Such useful info! I am familiar with amygdala bkz of what I have read about PTSD. They are stilling trying to treat traumatized soldiers with talk therapy and antidepressants and do not address cortisol problems and amygdala problems. It is very sad bkz the studies are out there and pretty clear but this still refuse to apply what is known. This is the same for alcoholism of course. I remember the book 7 Weeks to Sobriety!! I am amazed she mentions baclofen as that book came out a long time ago (90's?) if I recall correctly. Another book I love that has similar aspirations between diet, supplements and alcoholism is, of course, "Potaoes Not Prozac". I always thought the whole idea that alcoholism was a minor version of schizophreinia to be fascinating. As you said it is just a matter of degrees... i try to be open and non judgmental. I got my Bac from VL and I just ordered a new batch yesterday. I am not in a position to get it another way and I am grateful for the opportunity VL offers. Thanks again for responding to my post...

[Greg]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

Thanks Otter for an interesting post. I'll comment on how I can relate to it.

My drinking would probably fit in with several of the theories Otter wrote about above. My first serious issue in life was anxiety, both general and social, and was something I experienced from primary school age. GHB could well be a factor in this, as could natural deficiencies in GABA function or even natural overactivity of glutamate function (among other things). Personality and brain developmental problems and unrecognized forms of bipolar disorder are other things I think could cause anxiety symptoms in many people (although maybe still via GHB/GABA/glutamate problems), as well as traumatic life events of course.

I'm not sure if sugar irregularities have played a big part in my case but I won't rule anything out either. The desire to use alcohol as an emotional escape DEFINITELY did play a huge part in kicking off and sustaining my alcohol dependence, and this can explain why I developed such a ritual of nightly escapism and why I still search out alternative highs when alcohol free, over 20 years after first using booze as an escape.

The release of endorphins by alcohol, which apparently then trigger increased dopamine activity, would largely explain the fun side of it. My brain seems to fondly remember this rewarding effect from my very earliest times of drinking, and it will strongly seek out this effect while deliberately ignoring all the horrible things that alcohol does. Unfortunately none of the usual antidepressants have this effect, even mildly, although bupropion and MAOI's are supposed to, and nearly all other opioids or dopamine increasing substances are strongly addictive. This is a nuisance, because some people could be naturally deficient in these brain chemicals and only feel 'normal' when taking artificial substances to raise them (just another theory by the way).

Lastly, the lack of a partner, activities, goals, social groups, and interests in my life also strongly contributes to the desire to find fulfillment via chemical means. This is something I must work on myself, but it has been very hard in the past due to depression and addiction reducing energy and motivation to almost nil. Daily life as a depressed single alcoholic becomes one of zero self-esteem (even self-loathing), with cognitive abilities and personality reduced to almost zero as well. I have seen so many other alcoholics, and also non-addicts who are depressed or with mental problems that impair their social skills, in this state of mind and living a down-and-out lifestyle. Fortunately, things like therapy and rehab can address this part of the problem, although problems with brain chemistry also desperately need to be addressed.

Anyway that's my take on it. I don't pretend it is a complete explanation, or that it applies to everyone who has an alcohol problem. Also I don't pretend to be an expert!

[Otter]

if alcoholism is a disease and Baclofen is the cure...

I should make an important qualification to what I have posted over the past couple of years here. Some damage to the brain is organic, such as in stroke and brain injury. This is not widely understood but many people with this damage have symptoms which include anxiety, social phobias and aggression. It is very common for people with these disorders to medicate with alcohol as it helps these symptoms but they can also find relief with Baclofen. Cognitive therapies and AA are obviously less effective with such damage which doesn't go away with talking therapies or abstinence. It needs medical treatment.

My friend Swim has a cat who has this problem and she is so bad she cannot go out of the house and is terrified of even the slightest little noise, thinking she is going to be attacked. She had a stroke and both her left legs are a bit wobbly and then she had a knock on the head when she fell out of a tree the summer before last. After that she became very aggressive and started lashing out at people out of fear. It is very sad. No comforting of the cat helps but Swim is sure that proper medical attention with the right doses of Baclofen would make a huge difference but he cannot find a vet who knows anything much about this treatment except the very top people in the field and they are very expensive to use. Hopefully, once this treatment is better recognized it will make people understand that she cannot help herself and they will treat her more carefully and not scold her for hissing and trying to scratch them and leave her in peace for everyone's sake.

Hope that makes sense.