Is alcoholism caused by Vitamin D deficiency?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Is alcoholism caused by Vitamin D deficiency?

Hi, TW. How's TH?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Is alcoholism caused by Vitamin D deficiency?

Otter;1245865 wrote: There are also studies on the connection between alcoholism, Vitamin D and sunlight:

Recent Developments in Alcoholism - Marc Galanter - Google Books

Only in that the alcoholics they looked at were not getting enough sun. As soon as they got sun, voila! Vitamin D deficiency decreased. Absolutely no correlation between alcoholism and vitamin D, cause or effect, either way. Except maybe that some of us stay inside during the day. Partying all night (or working during the day) could lead to that...No booze needed.

Nah, I've got nothing, Otter. I see no correlation, no cause, no effect, very few similarities between MS and alcoholism. And even less of a connection with vitamin D. But I applaud the effort! I've done the same thing many, many times.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Is alcoholism caused by Vitamin D deficiency?

SP, we're going to have to agree to disagree for the moment about the food thing (though we mostly agree, except about the meat being good, grains/beans being toxic. That's just silly talk.)

I don't have time to play, I'm afraid. I wish I did, but I just don't. Don't be too sad.

(And lawdamercy, imagine the uproar if I get into a spirited discussion about paleo diets! There'd be an awful lotta lean, hard, muscle comin' my way. With spears. And fishing poles and such. Nope. That would just be very, very silly of me. plus. The time thing. :l though.)

[terryk]

Is alcoholism caused by Vitamin D deficiency?

Ne/Neva Eva;1245840 wrote:
Does anxiety cause alcoholism? hmmmm. OA says yes. Terryk says no.
I am only here because my name was mentioned - I want to stay far away from this conversation.

To be clear: I have never said that anxiety does not cause alcoholism. I have said that a pre-existing anxiety did not cause mine. Anxiety can certainly drive drinking and absolutely comes into play as physical dependency sets in and episodes of withdrawal start to happen. Dr. Ameisen (and Phill Thomas) intimate that it is (social) anxiety that causes the impulse to drink alcohol which causes alcoholism, and by treating the initial anxiety with baclofen we are curing the alcoholism. That does not jibe with my experience. I believe that baclofen does have anxiolytic effect, but that its anticraving mechanism is probably more complex than that, and acts through modulation of the mesolimbic (reward) center of the brain.

I still worry - a lot. I still get sad and have the urge to blot it out with booze. And I get happy and would love to get happier with a beer or two. But my experience is that baclofen prevents alcohol from "working" in any of these situations, not because it is preventing me from feeling anxious (I often still have a good deal of anxiety), but because baclofen does something else for me to keep me from craving/enjoying alcohol.


And while I'm here....
SlipperyPete;1245837 wrote: At the risk of looking like a flip-flopper, when you posted this, Otter, something struck a chord:

Pete.... No.Soup.For.You.





Just kidding.
-tk

[Bruunhilde]

Is alcoholism caused by Vitamin D deficiency?

Vitamin D is a fat soluble vitamin that is naturally present in very few foods, added to others, and available as a dietary supplement. It is also produced endogenously when ultraviolet rays from sunlight strike the skin and trigger vitamin D synthesis. The sun doesn't just deliver a vitamin, since you're picking everything apart (although you don't have "time to play" alas.

Alcoholism causes malabsorption. Meaning, which was my original intent in posting earlier, that if you are an alcoholic, you are vitamin D deficient (more than likely) but also deficient in many other vitamins and minerals as well. I'm sure studies would find alcoholics have deficiency (of this and tons of other stuff) because of lack of sun exposure per Pete's post and malabsorption and in some cases, poor diet. I haven't looked at all the links and posts below, but if I've missed something, I don't really care at this point. I just wanted to clarify my post and give a little thumbs down to your response to it.

Ne/Neva Eva;1245292 wrote: Vitamin D comes from the sun. There isn't another single good source of it. It has very little to do with alcoholism, except in a very roundabout way.

[Otter]

Is alcoholism caused by Vitamin D deficiency?

I think that is more what I am getting at. If you drink you damage the myelin around your nerves. That much is certainly true. You might not have started drinking because you were anxious. But, over time there is a vicious circle in that drinking stops absorption of vitamin D which is necessary to repair the myelin. This, IMHO, causes anxiety which Ameisen says is the same thing as craving. It is a neurological condition. So, you drink more to calm the nerves resulting in more damage to the Myelin and more anxiety and so on and on. Baclofen calms down this process and gives the body a chance to recover so you start absorbing food and nutrients and stop damaging the myelin. The anxiety subsides. But have you repaired the damage to the myelin fully? Is Baclofen itself correcting the problem which underlies alcoholism or is it a "maintenance" drug?

There is definitely a similarity between the two conditions. The big difference is that MS is caused by a genetic disorder which causes a Vitamin D deficiency. Alcoholism, in my theory is caused by anxiety which is caused by damage to the myelin which can be caused by consumption of alcohol or by a genetic problem. There is the study of MS sufferers who abuse alcohol. If their alcoholism is caused by anxiety then maybe their anxiety is caused by MS which is a condition caused by myelin depletion so at least in those sufferers their is arguably the clearest of connections.

Certainly, someone who is "clucking" is suffering from severe anxiety and severe spasm and will look a lot like someone with MS. I have heard that comment many times.

Ameisen talks about alcoholism being an illness of the amygdala and limbic regions. I do agree with that. So, is it the amygdala that is defective, or is it a shortage of chemicals such as GHB reaching that region or is it a connectivity problem. Joan Larson in Seven Weeks to Sobriety says that alcohol interferes with neurotransmission. I just think that it does more than that. It damages the nerves by which neurotransmission takes place and this damage is perceived by us as anxiety or addictive craving in serious cases.

I know from my own experience that I suffered from nervous twitching of my leg and my handwritign was terrible and my hands trembled slightly. I had drink daily for 10 to 15 years and had stopped by myself. I tapered off over a period of years but found I was incredibly anxious and alcohol calmed that down. I was a nervous wreck. When I stopped altogether I was incredibly nervous and anxious. I must have been giving off huge vibes because in one job I had a couple of people come to sit next to me and observe me and I was eventually told that it was stressful just sitting next to me.

Baclofen stopped my twitching, my handwriting became legible and actually quite neat. I am able to think calmly without my thoughts racing all over the place. I can cope with hugely stressful situations. A cough I had for 20 years cleared up. I am able to think positively about things. I find that when I am low on Baclofen as it wears off my anxiety returns and things start to worry me intensely. After taking Baclofen I can think about the same things and see my way through then and enjoying doing so. It is the strangest thing. When I am low on my dose and I start worrying, I start figeting and that can turn into convulsions if I let it go too long.

I desperately do not want to be like this. I don't think I could have coped without Baclofen and don't have huge side effects but I don't feel good. I feel lazy and unmotivated and generally unable to motivate myself to do much during the day although it is getting better.

So, I want to know whether vitamin D is a way out of this so that I don't need Baclofen or can reduce it. I cannot seem to wean myself off it. I try and get the most incredible anxiety. Certainly going on holiday in the sun does make a world of difference to how I feel.

I just do not subscribe to the view that anxiety is a "psychological" illness, that it is an illness of the "psyche" because I don't believe there is a psyche. If there is a psyche and it is part of the "mind" which is not part of the physical brain and neurotransmitters.

[Otter]

Is alcoholism caused by Vitamin D deficiency?

I think that is more what I am getting at. If you drink you damage the myelin around your nerves. That much is certainly true. You might not have started drinking because you were anxious. But, over time there is a vicious circle in that drinking stops absorption of vitamin D which is necessary to repair the myelin. This, IMHO, causes anxiety which Ameisen says is the same thing as craving. It is a neurological condition. So, you drink more to calm the nerves resulting in more damage to the Myelin and more anxiety and so on and on. Baclofen calms down this process and gives the body a chance to recover so you start absorbing food and nutrients and stop damaging the myelin. The anxiety subsides. But have you repaired the damage to the myelin fully? Is Baclofen itself correcting the problem which underlies alcoholism or is it a "maintenance" drug?

There is definitely a similarity between the two conditions. The big difference is that MS is caused by a genetic disorder which causes a myelin deficiency. Alcoholism, in my theory is caused by anxiety which is caused by damage to the myelin which can be caused by consumption of alcohol or by a genetic problem or by physical damage through trauma which causes sheering of nerves. There is the study of MS sufferers who abuse alcohol. If their alcoholism is caused by anxiety then maybe their anxiety is caused by MS which is a condition caused by myelin depletion so at least in those sufferers their is arguably the clearest of connections.

Certainly, someone who is "clucking" is suffering from severe anxiety and severe spasm and will look a lot like someone with MS. I have heard that comment many times.

Ameisen talks about alcoholism being an illness of the amygdala and limbic regions. I do agree with that. So, is it the amygdala that is defective, or is it a shortage of GHB reaching that region or is it a connectivity proble? Joan Larson in Seven Weeks to Sobriety says that alcohol interferes with neurotransmission. I just think that it does more than that. It damages the nerves by which neurotransmission takes place and this damage is perceived by us as anxiety or addictive craving in serious cases.

I know from my own experience that I suffered from nervous twitching of my leg and my handwritign was terrible and my hands trembled slightly. I had a chronic cough which would not go away. I had drunk daily for 10 to 15 years and had stopped by myself. I tapered off over a period of years but found I was incredibly anxious and alcohol calmed that down. I was a nervous wreck. When I stopped altogether I was even more nervous and anxious. I must have been giving off huge vibes because in one job I had a couple of people come to sit next to me and observe me and I was eventually told that it was stressful just sitting next to me.

Baclofen stopped my twitching, my handwriting became legible and actually quite neat. I am able to think calmly without my thoughts racing all over the place. I can cope with hugely stressful situations. The cough I had for 20 years cleared up. I am able to think positively about things. I find that when I am low on Baclofen as it wears off my anxiety returns and things start to worry me intensely. After taking Baclofen I can think about the same things and see my way through then and enjoying doing so. It is the strangest thing. When I am low on my dose and I start worrying, I start figeting and that can turn into convulsions if I let it go too long.

I desperately do not want to be like this. I don't think I could have coped without Baclofen and don't have huge side effects but I don't feel good. I feel lazy and unmotivated and generally unable to motivate myself to do much during the day although it is getting better.

So, I want to know whether vitamin D is a way out of this so that I don't need Baclofen or can reduce it. I cannot seem to wean myself off it. I try and get the most incredible anxiety. Certainly going on holiday in the sun does make a world of difference to how I feel.

I just do not subscribe to the view that anxiety is a "psychological" illness, that it is an illness of the "psyche" because I don't believe there is a psyche. If there is a psyche and it is part of the "mind" which is not part of the physical brain and neurotransmitters.

One thing we forget about to do with sun is that modern man spends most of his time inside buildings and glass does not allow Vitamin D through.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Is alcoholism caused by Vitamin D deficiency?

Yeah you're right bruun. Sorry I was snippy. I didn't intend it that way. And the study...if alcoholics get more sun they make more D. Just like everybody else. That's all.
And you too tk. Oops. On several levels.

[Otter]

Is alcoholism caused by Vitamin D deficiency?

Ne, I have to say I wholeheartedly disagree with what you say about diet.

Seven Weeks to Sobriety is a bible to a lot of people and the whole book is about nutritional treatment of alcoholism starting with megadose detox then going onto a long self analysis of all the foods we eat and toxins we are exposed to and ending with a complete change of diet which is very much like what SP has come across.

Yes, there are lots of vitamin and mineral deficiencies which cause alcohol related conditions but the one vitamin, depletion of which causes anxiety through myelin depletion is Vitamin D. All the information on it I have read suggests this is a very new discovery.

You can be an alcoholic living in the sun. By drinking, you suffer demyelination, ie., reduction of myelin caused by alcohol regardless of how much sun you get. Maybe being in the sun can cause alcoholism in that people feel they want to enjoy themselves, relax, have a drink. Sun, sand and Sangria and all that.

This is the similarity:

In MS, sufferers have spasm and 90% have anxiety. 20% abuse alcohol or drugs. Baclofen treats the spasm and, I would expect, also anxiety. The cause of MS is demyelination. This is caused by a Vitamin D deficiency. The deficiency in MS is caused by a gene.

In alcoholism, sufferers of chronic alcoholism suffer from DTs, the shakes, twitches, nervous leg sydrome and have anxiety. Baclofen gets rid of the physical symptoms and anxiety. Alcohol consumption cause demyelination because it depletes the body of Vitamin D. In some, a pre existing anxiety may cause them to start drinking.

Excuse me if I am being obtuse but I see a striking similarity. That is not to say that MS and and alcohol have any connection except in those who suffer from both. It is the same in bipolar which is coming to be viewed as a disorder of the amygdala and sufferers often medicate with alcoholism. There is one view that bipolar or some forms of it are actually the same thing as GAD.

So, as Ameisen says, alcoholism can be caused by a deficiency of the amygdala and limbic systems and maybe, IMHO, when he says limbic system this is interconnectivity within the limbic system.

[redhead77]

Is alcoholism caused by Vitamin D deficiency?

Otter, if you are worried about your vitamin D level, you could ask for a simple blood test. It's called 25(OH)D. I've attached a link I like. I'm not going to weigh into anything else here. I'm actually a little confused about it.

Vitamin D Council > Information on Vitamin D, Vitamin D Deficiency and Vitamin D Toxicity

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Is alcoholism caused by Vitamin D deficiency?

Otter;1246023 wrote:
I desperately do not want to be like this. I don't think I could have coped without Baclofen and don't have huge side effects but I don't feel good. I feel lazy and unmotivated and generally unable to motivate myself to do much during the day although it is getting better.

So, I want to know whether vitamin D is a way out of this so that I don't need Baclofen or can reduce it. I cannot seem to wean myself off it. I try and get the most incredible anxiety. Certainly going on holiday in the sun does make a world of difference to how I feel.

I can't write any more about the whole D, MS, anxiety, twitching, alcohol thing. It doesn't make any sense to me. If it makes sense to you that's fine. But please know that vitamin D can be toxic, that it builds up, and that if you decide to take a bunch, or tell someone else to treat their own alcohol dependence with vitamin D, well, that wouldn't be good.

But if you're looking for some answers related to what you are going through, perhaps that is a place to start.
Pretty cool about the benefits you've experienced.
Pretty interesting about the increased anxiety when you try to stop taking it. And the fact that you have different doses. I have no suggestions, obviously, since you're not treating alcoholism, and that's my only frame of reference. But if you're experiencing side effects, and you want to get completely off of it...Well, are you titrating and doing all the rest of the stuff that may help with that?

redhead77;1246087 wrote: Otter, if you are worried about your vitamin D level, you could ask for a simple blood test. It's called 25(OH)D.

That's how I found out that I am actually deficient and why I take the vitamin.
That's all I got.

[SlipperyPete]

Is alcoholism caused by Vitamin D deficiency?

terryk;1245973 wrote: And while I'm here....

Pete.... No.Soup.For.You.

:H
I know, I know. It was mainly a peace offering and I was going to bow out, although NE is trying as hard as she can to get me to jump back in by arguing about stuff she (admittedly) doesn't know what she's talking about.

Otter, I seriously think nutrition plays a strong role in all this. I will buy this book for you and ship it to your house, but you NEED to read this:

http://www.amazon.com/Paleo-Solution...6771389&sr=1-1

I think there's a free snippet you can download where he talks about his story. Isolde knows where it's at, so I'll ask her later.

[thewife]

Is alcoholism caused by Vitamin D deficiency?

Ne/Neva Eva;1245944 wrote: Hi, TW. How's TH?

He's still on bac, he felt like drinking today but decided not to experiment with it till later. he's doing great actually! i'm really hopeful!

[thewife]

Is alcoholism caused by Vitamin D deficiency?

is it crazy to think that alcoholism is caused by drinking too much alcohol and that you grow dependent on it? I know we want to point to the physical causes for a disease but the fact that you are physically taking some thing that changes your brain and it's chemistry is pretty strong physical evidence to the cause. I don't believe there has to be any deficiency of anything for alcohol to set its claws into people. There are many "healthy" people who are alcoholics. I do believe that we are more than our brains flashing signals and so our psyche is a very real complex thing.

[Road to Recovery]

Is alcoholism caused by Vitamin D deficiency?

thewife;1246358 wrote: is it crazy to think that alcoholism is caused by drinking too much alcohol and that you grow dependent on it? I know we want to point to the physical causes for a disease but the fact that you are physically taking some thing that changes your brain and it's chemistry is pretty strong physical evidence to the cause. I don't believe there has to be any deficiency of anything for alcohol to set its claws into people. There are many "healthy" people who are alcoholics. I do believe that we are more than our brains flashing signals and so our psyche is a very real complex thing.

Sorry but I disagree.
I drank the same amount as all my friends in my early 20's. I am an alcoholic, they are not. People take things that change brain chemistry all the time. Anti depressants for instance - I take them and they alter a deficeincy in my brain but I am not addicted to them. And what exactly do you mean when you say there are many "healthy" people who are alcoholics? Whta is your definition of healthy? Not over weight? never sick?