Baclofen as a specific-time craving reducer?

[Greg]

Hi all, I'm sorry I have not been around here in quite a while now, but I hope everyone has been going well.

I am finding that Antabuse continues to be a vital part of staying sober, but that alone it is not enough. After a few weeks, I start getting desperate to have something at night as an emotional "fix", mainly against depression but also against residual alcohol cravings and just because of my 20+ year long habit of having always ended my days with alcohol. Logically I know it is stupid and unnecessary to want this, but emotionally it is a different story. Many here will know I used cannabis as a night substitute for alcohol, but problems with that now make me want to avoid it too.

This brings me to my baclofen question. I have tried various doses, and have found benefits from it, but I am also wondering if it has been taken by anyone here on an as-needed basis only, rather than taking doses throughout the day every day. I ask because I'm seeking a way of reducing some daytime tiredness and other problems with it, and I never get any desire at all to drink during the day. I also thought I could reduce my total dose by only taking it towards evening, which is my only time of wanting alcohol or any other mood-altering substance. I did ask about this a year or two ago but was told the idea was "bollocks" by a fairly well-known member who no longer posts here.

If nobody has experience with doing this then I'll just try it and see. Dr Ameisen did mention using an extra "PRN" dose during his original self-trial, for times he had extra stress or cravings, so maybe this sort of thing can work.

[windycitylady]

Baclofen as a specific-time craving reducer?

Greg! Great to see you!
This may not exactly be what you're looking for, but...
I take 10mg bac with breakfast (1 PM), then don't take another until 10 PM. Between 10 PM and 3 AM (when I would normally be drinking) I take 30 mg. Bac has helped with my cravings, but I don't find that it effects my anxiety the way it does for others, even when I was at very high doses. I might not take the breakfast dose at all if the bac didn't prevent painful muscle spasms I sometimes experience. So, I don't think your idea is ridiculous at all. In fact, maybe the bac would have even a more pronounced effect if you weren't taking it all day. Maybe the feeling of the bac "hitting you" could be your intoxicant substitute.
On that note, are you still looking for some kind of substitute? I was, so I did some experimenting with kava root. I'd always shied away from kava, believing it to cause liver damage. I recently read, however, that liver damage comes from consuming parts of the plant other than the root, which can happen in cheaper preparations. I did more research and bought some high quality freeze dried root juice. It seemed to relax me somewhat, but I wanted to try something stronger. I then bought a pound of potent ground root. You have to soak it, put it through a strainer, put it in a blender, then strain it at least once more before drinking. Call me crazy, but this whole process actually added to the allure for me. Something "ritualistic", I guess. Well, I ended up making a pretty strong brew. It definitely had an effect on me. Numb mouth, heavy body, intoxicated mind state. In short, it felt pretty close to a mild drunk. Although this was what I'd been seeking, turns out I didn't enjoy it. My brain, being tricked into thinking it had consumed alcohol, just wanted more alcohol. So it ended up increasing my alcohol cravings, rather than the other way around. I think if it had had ANY other effect on me, besides making me feel slightly drunk, I would have really enjoyed it. I've been meaning to try a less potent brew (after all, I did spend $50 on the kava, $20 on the blender, and $10 on lecithin to act as an emulsifier. Might as well get my money's worth.), but that first episode kind of scared me off. In the meantime, I'm putting the lecithin in my daily yogurt (mmmmmm, delicious inositol and choline).
Although I didn't get the results I desired, I thought if you were still looking for a legal, non-habit forming substitute, you might want to try it.
Anyhow, great to see you. Hope you're doing well!

[eight days a week]

Baclofen as a specific-time craving reducer?

Hey Greg,

Did you never get a lifting of depression from Baclofen? I do, but only when not drinking much at all (I still tend to drink moderately at least half the week). In periods where I haven't, it's had a very subtle, almost imperceptible at times, and yet at others very marked, anti-depressant effect for me.

As for cravings, it definitely works like that for me. If you're still getting cravings I can only suggest trying it

I take 40-80mg daily btw. With doses of 10/20mg prn above my 40 'base level', and it works very well. I don't even think I need the daytime 20/20mg and might start to experiment with just an early-evening dose with a prn top-up. I also have trouble sleeping and quite often wake in the middle of the night and don't feel tired, and with awful anxiety. This was one of the reasons I originally collapsed into 24/7 drinking of neat spirits (just to get some sleep). Now if it happens I take 1 or 2mg diazepam (I take 6mg daily which I'm trying to get off of) but if there's craving there, even slightly, I also take 10mg Bac.

Hope that might help

[Greg]

Baclofen as a specific-time craving reducer?

Thanks very much for the replies.

I'll probably always have the idea of an alcohol substitute in the back of my mind, as it has been an obsession of mine for over 20 years! I did try kava some years ago with a few results, but it is now banned in Australia except for one brand of tablets. The root and extracts are not permitted now. The tablets are $40 a bottle and are similar to other herbal pills I have tried, namely very weak. Thanks for the suggestion but it's not practical anymore since the ban was introduced 5 years or so ago.

Windycitylady, I also did have the idea of substitution in mind with the baclofen while asking my question here. When I first had a script for it, I took 75 mg in one dose at night, no titration beforehand. Needless to say this was the wrong way of taking it, and I had some unpleasant effects (but also a dizzyish intoxication). Total insomnia, as in lying awake with my mind unable to shut down, was the worst aspect of this...also racing heart. I'm now looking at a more sensible idea such as taking it in several doses leading up to bedtime, rather than all at once. I have taken it in the normal way people use it here, meaning spread out over the whole day, and am now looking to bunch it up towards night, rather than a sudden single dose without any titration. As pointed out it would be a legal non-addictive option for this.

8, I think baclofen's depression lifting effects have been obscured in me by my use of cannabis, even though this has been night-only and fairly low dose. It has effects that carry over well into the following day, and depression with a foggy hangover is the main effect. I have noticed some mood improvement with baclofen when not having used cannabis the previous night, which is probably similar to the benefits for you when not having had much to drink. Both alcohol and pot definitely produce serious depression as after effects in me, I know that for sure now. I just didn't want to admit that there were problems with substances I had relied upon for so long!

At present I am AF and on Antabuse, with some Valium (5 mg/day) and still using some cannabis. I don't care that much about the alcohol just now, so it's the pot I have to tackle yet again...have been on and off it as much as I was with alcohol really. This is what I hope baclofen will tackle and substitute for now.

For those reading this and thinking substitution is a wrong or stupid idea in addiction, you may be right in the case of most alcoholics/addicts but there are some who just don't do well while staying substance free. I am one of those, having tried substance free time as well as nearly all antidepressants and numerous episodes of CBT and other counselling (and also AA). I don't recommend substitution if someone can find relief using more conventional methods.

[sujo]

Baclofen as a specific-time craving reducer?

I have just started with bac. Around a couple of weeks max. I'm not counting days anymore. I am taking 5mg @ 11am ish & another 5mg @ 4pm ish. It helps, I find I sort of forget about AL. I can't watch "Come Dine With Me" definite trigger. I was counting drinks!

[spacebebe01]

Baclofen as a specific-time craving reducer?

Come dine with me has a bad effect on me, or maybe its when I watched it sober I realised how messed up I must have been to have liked it:H

[YouKayBee]

Baclofen as a specific-time craving reducer?

I don't recommend substitution either Greg. I tried using cannabis in the way you describe after a friend waxed lyrical about it being a lot better drug than alcohol. All I did was abuse it in the same manner ie knock myself out with it - luckily I learned this before becoming dependent on the new drug. At that time I knew I had a serious drinking problem and decided to cut out all the crap, which I did for a while. Then I thought stimulants might help, they didn't and I found ANY mind altering drug could lead me to alcohol relapse. Only exception is caffeine and even that I keep a very close eye on - tending to cut it out when I can.

Recently I dug out some old baclofen and tried to use it to help me relax during a period of stress. To be honest I really did not like it, I'm really so averse to anything that isn't necessary and makes me even a bit woozy (including booze at the moment).

Having read your posts and threads over quite a long time there is one thing I would say to you Greg if I was your friend in real life. That would be, perhaps you need to stop looking for this magical answer/substitute and get on with being AF. I know I looked for a magical answer for years and years and wasted a lot of time and money. Do whatever you need to get sober but keep it simple and get on with it properly (be it HDB, TSM, AB or some other method that you throw yourself into).

[spacebebe01]

Baclofen as a specific-time craving reducer?

While I agree with what UK says, it would be great to be totally sober and clearheaded it is ironic that the wanting this and trying to cut down on meds that ended me up drinking vodka 24/7 for 6 days, now I am through that I will take a few pills over it anyday. I am the opposite I suppoe in that I have spent many years trying to be totally clean and sober and it never working for me, it is only now that I have tried to accept that maybe I need meds I am feeling I can move on and WILL beat the booze.

I used to try smoking weed but never liked it, after months of trying to learn to like it so it could be a drink substitute I gave up. I also have a friend who after 8 years sober in AA met a guy who was addicted to heroin and she started taking that, she used to sit in meetings and people praised her for not drinking in such a bad situation!!! At the time I tought it was a good idea and wanted to try it myself but there was noway I could inject myelf so I didnt, I was very envious of her tho:H

[Greg]

Baclofen as a specific-time craving reducer?

Thanks Uk for your honest opinion. My reason for being so unwilling to stick with substance-free options is that each time I have tried that in the past I haven't been able to handle feelings of depression and worry at night. However I do admit it's an addictive ritual, needing something every night, so that is something I have to overcome.

I'm now giving L-tryptophan and bupropion/Wellbutrin another try, as they are non-addictive and are both supposed to be able to help depression. They don't interact either. None of the other antidepressants have really helped. With baclofen, I was thinking it could help me feel relaxed at night and also reduce cravings, without also taking it during the day (when I don't get cravings).

Also still on Antabuse and have had some nights without pot too.

I know I have to work at sobriety, not just let pills or other drugs do the work for me, but I also think anything that can help without being addictive itself is worth trying at the same time.

[Greg]

Baclofen as a specific-time craving reducer?

Spacebebe, we must have posted at the same time, as I didn't see your post last night after sending mine.

I hope you are able to stay away from the booze after the vodka relapse. I really do think some addicted people still need some form of substance after getting off their main drug/s of choice, although others do better if totally substance-free.

I recently finished seeing a hard-line drug and alcohol counsellor who insisted upon me giving up ALL substances. I explained to her that my no.1 priority was staying off alcohol, and no.2 was getting and staying off marijuana, but she focused on the fact that I also take a small dose of Valium (5 mg/day) and want to try one or two unconventional (non-addictive) things for my depression. Not only did she say that I shouldn't take any prescription medicines at all for anxiety or depression, she also said baclofen was a big no-no "because it has sedative properties". Obviously she thought I would abuse baclofen as I have done with alcohol and pot, even though I have no record of ever having abused benzodiazepines!

I tried to do the zero-substances idea while seeing this counsellor, as I had tried at times in the past during dry spells. I ended up being in the worst state I have been in for years, although I did manage to stay off everything apart from 1/4 of a Valium tablet a day. After 3-4 weeks of this idea, with almost no sleep and various problems such as tinnitus, anxiety, and depression, I threw the towel in. I make no excuses for what I am about to say : THIS WAS TOO HARD FOR ME! My family also said I was the most difficult to live with for years, I was so edgy and agitated.

Hopefully I will be free of all substances one day in the future, but for me it will only come via harm reduction methods, I now know that. I think anyone who can get substance free completely should aim for that goal sooner however, as it is the most ideal method.