Dilemma Time

[redhead77]

Dilemma Time

BillF;1297529 wrote: .

On a practical level about baclofen, it sounds like you are a high-functioning alcoholic. You probably show up occasionally with a hang-over, but you are not drunk on the job. With HDB, you are chemically affected 24/7. Depends on your job. If you are a mid-level manager in a secured position who can nap in your office, go for it. But, if you are in a professional or client-intensive position where you are watched all the time, then you are jeopardizing your career.

Oops. Anyway, this is what I really meant to quote with my statement. Leave it to HDB, BillF! :H

*Really, I'm just fired up and not paying attention.

[ignominious]

Dilemma Time

bdd - I'm sorry, bad decorum, but my first response was directed at you. Also glad if Golf found it helpful
You sound like you're nearly there. You've had experience that it works before, so hit the switch again and work out a modified regime for titrating down. Good luck.
Hi everyone! Going to give an update on my progress fairly soon.

[redhead77]

Dilemma Time

Tk, I've missed a lot around here. I did see some of Dustbin's posts, though. I get the pessimism to an extent. Especially regarding the research or lack thereof. I still don't understand why someone would bash something they haven't tried. Or criticize the people who have tried it, and strongly believe in it (saying they're bac pushers).

Why is that BillF?

[redhead77]

Dilemma Time

Alrighty, it's bedtime for me. I do look forward to reading your thoughts in the morning, Bill. :l

[BillF]

Dilemma Time

redhead77;1297589 wrote: Tk, I've missed a lot around here. I did see some of Dustbin's posts, though. I get the pessimism to an extent. Especially regarding the research or lack thereof. I still don't understand why someone would bash something they haven't tried. Or criticize the people who have tried it, and strongly believe in it (saying they're bac pushers).

Why is that BillF?

As I said earlier, these discussions are never useful, and they degenerate into nastiness. The OP posted his situation and wondered if he should continued on high-dose bac. Someone else, seemingly scientifically-literate, responded with his personal experience and his take on the evidence for various med-based alcoholism treatments. The reality is that there is no good treatment, and for fringe treatments like HDB, there is no good evidence. If you want to call it pessimistic, so be it.

Why would someone bash something they haven't try? Lack of efficacy? Snake-oil? But, I haven't "bashed" bac, or anything else. In fact, I thought I was upbeat saying that many alcoholics will get better just by trying (with anything). O well, I guess my optimism is another's pessimism.

I haven't said that bac or anything else don't work. I said there is no good evidence that bac does. In the meantime, the OP is drinking less on 200+/day of bac , but stoned, sleepy, and appears "off" to his work acquaintances. Of course he will have to weigh these SE's against his previous drinking, but it is irresponsible for others to urge him to carry on because baclofen just *works*.

I've been to AA meetings, and many attendees eloquently recounted how nothing else worked until AA, and that their lives are now saved. On the basis of these meetings, I would have concluded that AA has a 90+% success rate, if only people would work the Steps. I see the same dynamic about talking HDB here.

I wish everyone well. I interjected in this thread because some one said he/she wants to engage on a scientific level. Obviously, the vast majority does not want to do so. As you say, it is not PC to criticize, or critique, HDB.

About TerryK, what can I say? He is one nasty piece of work, and I will do my best to ignore him from now on.

[redhead77]

Dilemma Time

I'm not sure when I said it wasn't PC to criticize HDB (at least to you). Have we talked before? I don't think it's wrong to question HDB, at all. But you aren't just questioning HDB. You're questioning the people who take it. Accusing them of being bac pushers. These people have been cured from alcoholism with a drug, and they go on to spread the word. We both know that alcoholism is difficult to cure. I do understand your frustration. I know that some may jeopordize their jobs if they continue to take HDB, and don't manage their SEs. I've experienced and written about this very problem. I also know the feeling the meds threads can give in general regarding HDB. Your coming on here (and insulting people like terry k) doesn't help the situation or change anything for the better.

Anyway, bbd, I sincerely apologize for hijacking your thread when you need support. I understand what you're going through. I've been there. I've done all sorts of things to help with the spaciness especially. I've taken modafanil and Adderall. I've taken Bronkaid (which is over the counter) to help me stay awake. It's hard for me to even remember what all I've done. I wish you the best and I hope you can stick with it, but if you can't nobody can blame you.

[RedThread12]

Dilemma Time

Hey, bdd: Yeah, it is a dilemma. Life - Work; Life - Work.

My doc referred a patient to me to help said patient through the baclofen titration protocol. She owns her own company, and last week, at 120 mg/day, freaked out completely about things not being in the proper files and her regular routine of organizing and managing being demolished by "bac-itis." She had several effortless AF nights last week, for the first time since in several decades. But she is titrating down so she can manage her business, which is what she identifies as the major stressor in her life that drives her to drink. Her alcohol consumption is down by 1/2, even though AF didn't last long. I can only support her to make her own decisions re bac vs. staying in the stressful position that SHE SAYS contributes to her deepening alcoholism. Her choice is "work." I don't get it.

Am I nuts or is she? I'm really open to your thoughts.

Does ANYBODY SEE the crux of the issue here? Alcoholism is a progressive disease. I guess I'm lucky, because for me, it was obvious - I had already quit working. The manner in which I generate my livelihood requires sobriety and absolute clear-headedness. Once I started drinking during the day, there was no way, in good conscience, that I could keep working. So I didn't have to weigh: work - life; work - life. I was past work and trying to save my life.

What happened for me is entirely different from most people's experience, it seems. I actually BEGAN working again, about 2 weeks after taking my first dose of baclofen. My capacity not only for work, but for dealing with other critical issues in life and relationship expanded dramatically. Just wanted to put it in writing that the baclofen journey does not always require somnolence and confusion. I am sympathetic when it does, but it's not a given. Go f'in figure!!

My heart goes out to you, bbd, and if I could help you "make" baclofen work for you, I would! I'm not a life-long drinker, but the past 7 years have been a breath-taking exercise in being an alcoholic and learning about addiction. I opted out of "convention" decades ago, so it wasn't a big challenge for me to give my health and mental/spiritual well-being priority. I actually agree with the AA premise that alcohol, or any other addiction, is a "spiritual" disease. And sometimes THAT path demands that we be true to something much bigger than we understand.

Alcohol, or any addiction, is an evil, cruel, master. And, as we see in headlines everywhere, all the time, it WILL take us to our graves. I send you all good wishes, that you find your own way out. Hope it's sooner rather than later!! So glad you finally posted!!

I'm not saying bac is the answer. It might be, though. I recall that Dr. Ameisen took a couple of stabs at it, titrating down, then systematically back up. But, as Ig says, you might be closer than you think. I'm sure you realize that the job will eventually go, anyway, if you keep drinking??

Hey, Ig!!!

[GolfMonster]

Dilemma Time

Baclofen etc

x

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Dilemma Time

bdd-

I get it. The choice for me was relatively easy, too. That wasn't the case when my husband titrated up, though. It was a real dilemma for us since his income provides... But after some serious thought and discussions, even that decision (for him to continue) was simple. (not easy, though.) Fortunately he didn't experience the SEs that I had. It turned out that he was able to be more productive in his demanding, stressful, successful career. Even on HDB!

Anyway. Two take-away points:
The switch is a misnomer. Indifference takes time. Going down a bit, going slowly, and managing the SEs as they come up may be very productive for you.

Please do not go down abruptly. Take weeks. Take longer. You WILL find cessation of SEs as you go down. You run the risk of other SEs if you go down too quickly. And I don't really think it matters how long it's taken you to get up to 290mg. But this suggestion is likely to be more important if you've been on it for a while...

go slowly. With a plan and your eyes on the goal (whatever that is...)

arsenic, (my favorite name for you so far) I don't have time right now. Can't you just find something better to do then post erroneous information about research you have yet to post in order to perpetuate the lies you tell yourself that keep you drunk and arrogant. And mean.

I sure as hell am not going to respond on a thread started by someone who is actually actively looking for a way out.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Dilemma Time

bdd35;1297555 wrote: I read where many of you, including Dr. A, felt an immediate ease of anxieties once on baclofen, I've never felt this.
I did not. I was on it for a long while before I started to experience relief from both anxiety and compulsive drinking.
Dr. A had been on baclofen for a year before he titrated down to 30mg and back up again.

bdd35;1297553 wrote: I told myself that I would continue on the baclofen up until 300mg. Which would be for another week. I can't take the somnolence, spacy periods, psychotic moments, snoring and other zombie-type side-effects that go with the bac.

Why would you go up?
if those are the side effects you're experiencing, it doesn't really matter what you do for a living. If you can't take the time to go up to find indifference, then going up when you're suffering and unable to cope is counterintuitive.
You have two choices: Manage them or go down.

Hang in there.

[BillF]

Dilemma Time

GolfMonster;1297692 wrote: ...... As Bill pointed out, in may studies people drink 50% less after taking the placebo for a couple of months! .............

Just to clarify, in studies, 50%+ of the placebo group get better, by whatever criteria used in the particular study (abstinence, safe-drinking levels, days AF,etc.)

For example, in the recent studies trumpeting the success of nalmefene (used only when drinking, a la TSM), the placebo group had a 60% success rate, compared to 66% for the medication group with no allowance for intention-to-treat.

I appreciate the personal report of trials of various medications, even if the results are negative. (Of course, N=1 )

As I mention earlier, discussions casting doubt on a therapy, esp. by appealing to the scientific literature, rile people. In my case, in fact I've never said the baclofen doesn't help. In the absence of good evidence, it may be worth giving it a try. But, in the same light, it does not make sense to me to jeopardize health and job to persist with a totally unproven treatment if there is no improvement after a few months. I would feel differently if the success rate with hdb is high, but *we just don't know*.

[RobinJ]

Dilemma Time

Big Sigh...

BDD35 I am sorry that you are getting so many side effects and also dealing with a stressful job. I pray that you will either hit your switch by next week or find another course of treatment that is effective.

One idea that I have not heard mentioned, but I read on several other threads, is that if you don't hit your switch at 300, dose up say maybe 50-60mg on say Friday, Saturday, & Sunday and see if you hit the switch before the work week begins on Monday. That is assuming that you are off on weekends. It's just a suggestion.

I know Bac will not work for everyone, and that is okay. You found the switch once and I hope you can find it again. Again I wish you much success in whatever methods you seek to stop drinking in the future. Please log back in and let us know how you are doing. Take care!

[BillF]

Dilemma Time

[QUOTE=Ne/Neva Eva;1297694}.....
arsenic, (my favorite name for you so far) I don't have time right now. Can't you just find something better to do then post erroneous information about research you have yet to post in order to perpetuate the lies you tell yourself that keep you drunk and arrogant. And mean.

I sure as hell am not going to respond on a thread started by someone who is actually actively looking for a way out.
I have never posted erroneous info. I have not lied. Drunk? Not for a while.