HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

[AL Fiend]

I am currently at 360 mg a day, my second day at this dose. I titrated up very slowly over the last 5 months, going at least 5 days to a week between upping my doses. I have had very few of the side effects most people here talk about. Although I am slightly less obsessed with AL than I was previously, I still really want to drink, and when I do, I drink easily 10 drinks in a sitting.

With little to no side effects, even at this high dose, and still wanting to drink more than anything else in life, just wondering if I am one of the ones BAC doesn't work for.

Would appreciate anyone's story about BAC success achieved at this high dose. Getting worried about going much higher.

Thanks,

AL

[Ne/Neva Eva]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

Hi, Al!
You'll want to seek out bleep. His first username was bleep69. He doesn't come around here much these days, but if you send him a PM he'll respond. Also lowcountryman, who went up to 400+ before he stopped drinking. You can use the search functions to find their threads...

I went up to 320mg and drank every step of the way. (ugh.) Toward the end I was pretty much forcing it, and then woke up one day and realized that I didn't really want to drink. On my way home from work that night, I thought I would just 'try' not drinking that night. Plus it was raining. And cold. And I didn't feel like stopping to get some beer...
My husband had a very similar experience and at a very similar dosage. (I can never remember if it was 320/340 and which of us it was or when. :H)

Don't give up before the miracle happens.

[AL Fiend]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

Thanks Ne. I will try to find those guys.

[bleep]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

Hi Fiend,

I wouldn't panic about going higher, especially if you aren't experiencing debilitating SE's. I found indifference close to 400, but went much higher just to see what it was like, and I didn't experience any problems. At least none that I was/am aware of!

I remember reading somewhere that Amiesen has taken a patient up to 510 to reach indifference, that being his highest to date. Maybe someone can lay their hands on that for you, I've can't for the life of me remember where I read it though.

I still wouldn't panic about going higher than that if you have to, but cross that bridge if you come to it.

Best of luck.

[AL Fiend]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

Hi bleep,

Thanks for finding me quicker than I found you! I appreciate your support.

Today I had the first inkling that something may be happening. My thinking feels different. It seems to be getting more rational regarding drinking. And your encouragement helps. So I will hang on.

How long did you stay at your indifference level before you titrated down, and how fast did you titrate down?

Thanks again for your support, encouragement, and future responses.

[bleep]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

No worries, I just happened to pop in at the right time.

I stayed at my level for a good few months, and then went up, as I said, for no real reason, I was curious to see what would happen. Nothing much did, so I went back down. Now I'm trying the experiment the other way, again, just to see what happens. So far so good - I'm on a measly 50mg's and plan to keep going. If anything exciting or odd happens, I'll post about it.

I think what's let me reduce so much is the decision to actually stop (which baclofen made very easy to make, and carry through). If I decided to drink at this level, I'm not sure what would happen. Doubtless I'll try and find out at some point, but for now I'm happy just giving it a miss...

[AL Fiend]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

Thanks for your info, bleep. I think something really is happening. I am starting to feel better in my own skin. I think I may be on the verge of indifference!

Do you think a month at a switch level is enough time? And what kind of a titration down schedule should I expect? I've read some people only going down 10 mgs a week.

[bleep]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

I'll answer on the thread that Ne just started to avoid having to type it twice!

[AL Fiend]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

"Some people, about 1 in 10 from memory, have a different reaction to alcohol than most people. They feel greater euphoria from it and they seem unable to control their intake after having just one or two drinks. This is not something that happens to the majority who drink alcohol. It's not about being "weak" but is actually about the way the brain reacts to alcohol. The euphoria and paradoxical stimulant effect appear to happen due to alcohol's effects on the brain's natural opioids (endorphins) and the dopamine receptors, rather than its better-known effects on GABA receptors. This probably happens with everyone to some extent but it seems to happen to a lot greater extent to those 1 in 10 who go on to have serious alcohol problems. Feeling an overpowering need to keep on drinking after having the first drink or two seems to be an indication that a person's brain reacts this way to alcohol, and it is likely that their brain will always react chemically in this way, every time they drink any alcohol at all. This is probably the reason why alcoholics usually go straight back to serious drinking if they have any alcohol at all, even after months or years of total sobriety. Alcohol actually has an effect on numerous receptor/neurotransmitter types so it may also affect others in a way that causes the urge to drink more and more." (My emphasis)

Read more: Treatment - Alcoholism--probable causes, treatments, medications - Drugs Forum

Found this on the above cited (non MWO) forum and I thought it might give food for thought as to why Baclofen doesn't work as readily for some as others, or why some might need such high doses. It may be possible that some of us need our opoid systems stimulated instead of, or in addition to, the stimulation Baclofen has on our GABA systems.

[redhead77]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

Hi Al Fiend,

Thanks for sharing. I'm not sure that all or most alcoholics experience alcohol as a stimulant. Do they, I wonder? I haven't heard many people talk about it here (UK Blonde once did). I certainly do. I often use alcohol to give me energy.

I think because I fit the exact definition described, that I respond well to naltrexone. It's working on my opioid receptors. But I also have issues with anxiety, and bac seems to help, as well as curb my cravings for booze. Majorly at certain doses. Hard to say, but hopefully one of these drugs will cure me eventually.

Thanks again!

[redhead77]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

I reread what you posted Al Fiend. I kind of missed your point (ADD? ) Yes, I agree this might possibly explain why some don't respond to baclofen as expected. It's hard to know. I think understanding the neurotransmitters and how they affect behavior and addiction has the 'experts' perplexed. It's an interesting perspective, though.

Once again, thanks.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

hmmmm...

There is a definition of alcoholism somewhere that includes the fact that people who are addicted (as opposed to abuse or dependence) no longer experience the euphoria or some of the other positive benefits.
This definition was true for me. I dreaded drinking (almost) as much as I looked forward to it!

The rest of it, the dopamine/epinephrin/opiod thing? Researchers that have spent a lifetime trying to untangle those connections (and the whys and the hows and whatfors of 'em) really don't know much.
That said, there is obviously a connection.

I think I could lose hours and hours and hours simply following the trail of dopamine in our bodies. It's truly fascinating! (It's made by glands in the stomach as well as in the brain! And it also has a direct effect on so many other hypothalamic hormones--not just the 'feel good' ones, that it's clearly as integral as Vitamin D. Fascinating stuff, but I digress! Sorry!!)

It is weird that some of us can take

[AL Fiend]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

Hi redhead77,

redhead77;1370757 wrote:
Thanks for sharing. I'm not sure that all or most alcoholics experience alcohol as a stimulant. Do they, I wonder? I haven't heard many people talk about it here (UK Blonde once did). I certainly do. I often use alcohol to give me energy.
No, the post actually says that only 1 in 10 experience alcohol as a stimulant. And those alcoholics are the ones who's opoid systems are being stimulated by alcohol.

redhead77;1370757 wrote: I think because I fit the exact definition described, that I respond well to naltrexone. It's working on my opioid receptors. But I also have issues with anxiety, and bac seems to help, as well as curb my cravings for booze. Majorly at certain doses. Hard to say, but hopefully one of these drugs will cure me eventually.

What dose of Baclofen do you use, and does it curb your cravings? Or is it the naltrexone that is responsible. Both drugs certainly have their proponents. Maybe some of us need both.

Thanks for your reply,

AL

[AL Fiend]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

Hi Ne,

Yeah, there is no end to the depth of our neruotransmitters and how they affect our neurology, especially our substance abuse.

Yeah, and I am totally jealous every time I read that someone hit their switch at such low levels.

I titrated down to 240 after being at 360 with what I thought might be a switch. I stayed there for over a month before titrating down, but then started drinking again, so started to titrate back up. Am currently at 340 and still drinking, although I am drinking about half as much as I did before I started Baclofen 9 months ago or so. (6 drinks compared to maybe 15 or more a day.) So not a switch, but definitely less compulsed.

I've also added tyrosine and 5 htp to my supplement regimen which I think is helping.

Wish I would just switch!!!!! I am so tired of all these pills and still drinking!!!!

AL

[redhead77]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

AL Fiend;1370742 wrote: "Some people, about 1 in 10 from memory, have a different reaction to alcohol than most people. They feel greater euphoria from it and they seem unable to control their intake after having just one or two drinks. This is not something that happens to the majority who drink alcohol. It's not about being "weak" but is actually about the way the brain reacts to alcohol. The euphoria and paradoxical stimulant effect appear to happen due to alcohol's effects on the brain's natural opioids (endorphins) and the dopamine receptors, rather than its better-known effects on GABA receptors. This probably happens with everyone to some extent but it seems to happen to a lot greater extent to those 1 in 10 who go on to have serious alcohol problems. Feeling an overpowering need to keep on drinking after having the first drink or two seems to be an indication that a person's brain reacts this way to alcohol, and it is likely that their brain will always react chemically in this way, every time they drink any alcohol at all. This is probably the reason why alcoholics usually go straight back to serious drinking if they have any alcohol at all, even after months or years of total sobriety. Alcohol actually has an effect on numerous receptor/neurotransmitter types so it may also affect others in a way that causes the urge to drink more and more." (My emphasis)

Read more: Treatment - Alcoholism--probable causes, treatments, medications - Drugs Forum

Found this on the above cited (non MWO) forum and I thought it might give food for thought as to why Baclofen doesn't work as readily for some as others, or why some might need such high doses. It may be possible that some of us need our opoid systems stimulated instead of, or in addition to, the stimulation Baclofen has on our GABA systems.

I didn't read it as that, AL. When looking at the wording it states "people" not alcoholics. It then goes on to state "This probably happens with everyone to some extent but it seems to happen to a lot greater extent to those 1 in 10 who go on to have serious alcohol problems". Seems to me, the author is comparing how drinking affects a person who isn't prone to alcoholism, versus how it would affect one who would go on to develop alcoholism or dependence. I'm aware that statistically, about 10% of people who drink, go on to develop alcoholism. That would be consistent with the 1 in 10 this author speaks of. That's why I interpreted it that way.

I'm currently taking 160 mg from a low of 120 mg. Yes, I think it curbs my cravings. I've been at a high of 240 and then I didn't want to drink. I had to come down due to SEs, and once I get under 200 (for sure 180) my cravings return. I agree that both drugs may be helpful for some of us. I haven't read of many that have used both. There's only one other person I know of, and he only took naltexone briefly. He did a very rapid titration of bac and that worked for him. I don't think Nal is curbing my cravings at this point. It does reduce how much I drink and how I respond to alcohol.

Good luck to you! I know the stuggle to figure it out and find the balance. At least you're drinking less now until you do. Six drinks compared to 15 is a big difference in the harm alcohol inflicts on your body.