HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

[AL Fiend]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

redhead77;1371334 wrote: I didn't read it as that, AL. When looking at the wording it states "people" not alcoholics. It then goes on to state "This probably happens with everyone to some extent but it seems to happen to a lot greater extent to those 1 in 10 who go on to have serious alcohol problems". Seems to me, the author is comparing how drinking affects a person who isn't prone to alcoholism, versus how it would affect one who would go on to develop alcoholism or dependence. I'm aware that statistically, about 10% of people who drink, go on to develop alcoholism. That would be consistent with the 1 in 10 this author speaks of. That's why I interpreted it that way.
Ahhhhh! I see what you mean readhead. Nice critical reading. I guess in my world everyone is at least an alcoholic abuser so I automatically assumed s/he was talking about the most affected of the bunch. But your interpretation makes more sense.

redhead77;1371334 wrote: I don't think Nal is curbing my cravings at this point. It does reduce how much I drink and how I respond to alcohol.

I think I will look into that Naltrexon. If it even helped me drink less it would be worth it. Do you suffer side effects from Nal?

Thanks for your support, redhead.

[baclofan]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

AL Fiend;1372762 wrote:
I think I will look into that Naltrexon. If it even helped me drink less it would be worth it. Do you suffer side effects from Nal?

50mg-closed eye visuals, I'll never forget that night. 25mg still made me to puke my guts out (and I was cold sober).
IMHO naltrexone is toxic, but hey whatever works for ya

[moglor]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

AL Fiend - I experience the alcohol-as-a-stimulant effect. I finally ended up at 375-425 before I hit my switch. There's definitely something there with regards to the other neurotransmitters. My alcoholism and my depression are inextricably linked.

[AL Fiend]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

baclofan;1372769 wrote: 50mg-closed eye visuals, I'll never forget that night. 25mg still made me to puke my guts out (and I was cold sober).
IMHO naltrexone is toxic, but hey whatever works for ya

Yikes, baclofan! That sounds awful. Yeah, not excited about testing out yet another series of side effects. Just starting to get desparate for the switch. But moglor's post below yours is encouraging.

[AL Fiend]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

moglor;1372777 wrote: AL Fiend - I experience the alcohol-as-a-stimulant effect. I finally ended up at 375-425 before I hit my switch. There's definitely something there with regards to the other neurotransmitters. My alcoholism and my depression are inextricably linked.

I find this somewhat encouraging moglor, since I am at 340 and have been as high as 360. So maybe not much longer to go.

What do you mean "There is something there with regards to the other neurotransmitters." Do you think baclofen is affecting all the neurotransmitter systems, not just the GABA system?

One reason I ask is that I not only want to be rid of the cravings, but also am hoping to get some motivation in my life. (So it would be nice if bac also positively affected the opoid system.)

I don't exactly "feel" depressed, but I know that lack of motivation is a sign of depression so maybe I am and just don't know it. At any rate, my lack of motivation is what keeps me from doing other thing I know I should do, like exercise. I just can't summons the energy. It sounds so tedious. And I was like this before I started on bac. I think it's a big reason why I drink. It's easier than actually doing something (like exercise.)

[moglor]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

I mean that I think unbalanced neurochemistry in general is responsible for alcoholic recidivism and many of the various comorbidities associated with alcoholism (depression, anxiety.) When you start reading up on neurochemistry, you start to see how delicate a balance it is, and as you learn how the dopamine/gaba/serotonin systems interoperate, it makes you wonder how humans can survive at all as alcoholics.

Because there has been so little legitimate research done on baclofen vis a vis alcoholism, we're left with armchair theories of how it works, why it works, etc.

Based on all the threads here, these questions seem to pop up fairly regularly:

- is baclofen efficacy mg/kg related (dose/body mass related)? maybe. some people seem to have results at low mg/kg. others don't. seems like most people who are willing to go high enough get results. In my original thread, I bemoaned the lack of a definite "switch." Even up at 325 I wasn't getting it. It wasn't until I hit 375/425 that it truly was a switch. One day I was addicted to beer. The next day, I was totally uninterested. That doesn't mean my psyche doesn't still want to reach for a cold one, but physically, I can take it or leave it.

- is baclofen efficacy a factor of previous alcohol intake? maybe. if you look at the brain's GABA systems, it's entirely possible that baclofen's success may be related to a combination of neurobiology (underlying conditions, depression, dopamine/serotonin levels) plus damage to the GABA system due to the length and severity of addiction.

- is baclofen efficacy a factor of continuing alcohol intake? again, maybe. some people seem to be able to overcome bac's effects by simply continuing to drink. I know I quickly got used to drinking tons of vodka even at 200mg/day. Some people can drink straight up to the switch. Some people switch at much lower doses if they can take a break from the alcohol for awhile.

All that said, since you mentioned you had few side effects even at 360, I'd really wonder about the quality of your pills. Even after 2 years of HDB, and knowing what the SEs are and how to manage them, the SEs at 425mg/day are significant. I need to speak slowly and enunciate otherwise my words are slurred. I stumble easily and bump into things. I am very clumsy. I have broken fingers and toes numerous times due to this. I get strange visual effects, and depending on what my activity level is, I tend to fall asleep like I have narcolepsy.

If you haven't already, try switching brands. I use Neuraxpharm from Gold Pharma.

Best,
Moglor

[AL Fiend]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

moglor!

Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response. I appreciate all the insightful information. Yeah, it makes so much sense that the unbalanced brain chemistry is the culprit for alcoholism, or actually, the underlying comorbidity which probably causes the alcoholism.

And yes, I have pondered and been perplexed by each and every one of the questions you put forth. I did indeed wonder if I had messed up my brain so much that it was taking me longer; but then I wondered if I had a more messed up brain to begin wtih which caused me to become so addicted to alcohol in the first place!

I read carefully through the threads that talked about weight and gender as possible factors. Nothing there.

And I have tried being AF for a month or two while looking for the switch, and I have drank lots at points and limited my alcohol at points. It eludes me no mattter what.

I did look up the two sources of Bac I have been taking. For about the first 4 of 5 months while titrating up to about 300 I was on bac manufactued by Teva Pharm. I changed my pharmacy about 5 months ago and have been on a bac manufactured by Upsher Smith Pharm. Both sources were purchased in the US.

So yeah, very confusing. Maybe I just don't want it bad enough. I am a bit apprehensive about ending this relationship with alcohol.

Thanks again for all your information.

AL

[Ne/Neva Eva]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

Morning, fellas. (you're all fellas, right?)

I think it's pretty conclusive that weight has nothing to do with it. I weigh about 130 lbs. My husband weighed about 200 lbs. Same number of mgs to find indifference. There are too many discrepancies, on this board alone, to assume that there is a correlation between mg and kg.

Gender is a different story, but really rather moot. Especially if you're a guy! I'm not, and I tend to think that baclofen has a profound effect on hormones particularly related to being a woman...But then, I'm biased of course. So as I said, it's kind of moot.

I drank all the way up. I didn't exactly have a "switch" because I kept drinking even when I didn't want to anymore. When the thought of drinking my go-to drink of cheap white wine started making me nauseous, I switched to beer. When that made me sick to think about, I switched to different beer. Then red wine. etc...
One day I decided I didn't feel like stopping to get booze on the way home from work. I figured I'd "try" it out, and see if I was going to be okay. I had done this before, and even forgotten to get booze on the way home! But I'd always gone out and gotten some after the fact. That night I was blissfully sober. The next day, a Saturday, I decided to try it again. Generally I would start drinking around noon on days off. But it was effortless to not drink. Lather, rinse and repeat. I decided on day 6 of effortless sobriety that I was 'switched'--but called it indifferent because I just didn't care anymore...And I don't know that I had an off switch. (Ever!)

I was also very superstitious about it all in terms of brand and times and ways I took baclofen. It was very confusing at the time why I was taking 320mg when older men, double my weight, who drank way more than I did, found indifference at much lower doses.
In retrospect I think it just takes what it takes. I know I had it bad...Really bad. The thought of being able to live without booze was inconceivable. (I'd tried in so many ways, after all, and it had never ever worked.) And there is a loooong line of hereditary alcoholism on both sides of my family. (I am one of the ones that when talking to a shrink/counselor I could see them figuratively shaking their heads in dismay. :H)

So. It takes what it takes, AL. You can slow down on the ramp up, and manage your drinking (at the levels of bac you're taking, even a couple of drinks is likely to make the SEs much less manageable.) But time is a huge, often overlooked factor here. OA was on bac for a year before he titrated down and then back up again to find indifference. I'd imagine that has a lot to do with how manageable the SEs are, and how long it takes to get there.

Have faith, courage and keep your eyes on that goal. It'll come. It always does. (And in the meantime, you can start planning on what you're going to do after the fact. Mog can tell you that is a big hurdle for many of us.)

:l

[AL Fiend]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

Thanks Ne. You are always so reassuring, no matter how much I whine. (No pun intended...mostly.)

I do worry that having little to no side effects means bac just isn't affecting me, and thus, will not help me become indifferent. (And I am drinkinking at least 6 beers a day, sometimes cocktails too.) But I will keep up the good fight. I haven't surpassed the highest dose I have read about on here.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

That's not true. In general, every single last thing you post about medications, baclofan/desperados/benzo control board is wrong. wth???

When is this going to stop?

[baclofan]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

Ne/Neva Eva;1373192 wrote: That's not true. In general, every single last thing you post about medications, baclofan/desperados/benzo control board is wrong. wth???

When is this going to stop?

???

The Low Dose Naltrexone Homepage

[Ne/Neva Eva]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

This is factually incorrect:

desperados;1373054 wrote: Hey, the best study ever for baclofen diminishing AL cravings done...on rats was up to 4.5mg/kg of body mass

That website is irrelevant. It has to do with the treatment of HIV/AIDS and other autoimmune diseases.

What, exactly, is your point desperados/baclofan/benzo control board?

[redhead77]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

AL Fiend;1372762 wrote:
I think I will look into that Naltrexon. If it even helped me drink less it would be worth it. Do you suffer side effects from Nal?


I suffered some mild nausea and headaches at first. Everything went away within a couple of weeks.

baclofan;1372769 wrote: 50mg-closed eye visuals, I'll never forget that night. 25mg still made me to puke my guts out (and I was cold sober).
IMHO naltrexone is toxic, but hey whatever works for ya
IMHO alcohol is toxic when drinking great enough volumes. That would be the majority around here who haven't found a solution.

moglor;1372777 wrote: AL Fiend - I experience the alcohol-as-a-stimulant effect. I finally ended up at 375-425 before I hit my switch. There's definitely something there with regards to the other neurotransmitters. My alcoholism and my depression are inextricably linked.

That's interesting, Moglor. I remember you tried naltrexone and it had a profound affect on your drinking. If I remember correctly, you posted something like you went from 40 beers a day to 2 or 3. You actually had an impact on me trying the drug.

Edit to add, I also remember you didn't want to take it because you felt like it affected your exercise endorphins. Do I remember this correctly?

baclofan;1373197 wrote: ???

The Low Dose Naltrexone Homepage

Low dose naltrexone (LDN) is not the same as the 50 mg dose people take for drinking. However, it is interesting, isn't it baclofan?

[moglor]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

Yes, redhead77, naltrexone completely wiped out any "positive" feelings from exercise, and I think it hastened the arrival of depression. It did seem to help with the drinking, but I think a lot of that was placebo. TSM can take months, and I was having a lot of nausea as well. The SEs weren't worth it in the end, but if bac and others don't work, it's a tool in the toolbox.

[redhead77]

HDB: 360 And Counting. . .

Thanks for the feedback!