Announcement

**windycitylady** · April 27, 2012, 03:24 PM

Totally new to forum, sort of new to bac

I only have a minute, but I wanted to say welcome, Stuck, and interesting story!
I very much relate. It felt like for so long I could picture myself alcohol free in the far future, accomplishing things that my drinking made impossible. But I couldn't conceive of even going one night without alcohol. Now that I've been sober for a little while, not drinking nightly is easy. But I've defined myself as a drinker for so long that I can't picture "forever" without alcohol. What if I take a vacation somewhere warm? No margaritas? No champagne if I get married? Those are poor examples, but you get the idea. It's not a craving, just a way I've always pictured myself. With a drink in my hand.
Anyhow...
Sounds like you respond very well to the baclofen! Congrats! I got up to 225 mg/ day and was still drinking every night. I was furious with myself, as I wasn't really craving alcohol that much. It was just THERE. I drank because I could. I decided to take antabuse. It took the argument out of drinking. I couldn't drink, end of story. The baclofen (of which I take 40mg/day now) helped with the cravings. I also suffer from debilitating anxiety, which the bac did not remedy as it does for some. I now take 400mg of gabapentin 3 times a day and 10 mg buspar once or twice a day. My depression and anxiety are significantly improved.
More to say, but I'm out of time. I'm sure others will have more helpful advice.
But I'm glad you're here!

**Ne/Neva Eva** · April 27, 2012, 06:02 PM

Totally new to forum, sort of new to bac

Hullo Stuck! Glad you decided to jump in.

There's a lot to respond to in both of your posts! (nice post, Windy. I can definitely relate to A LOT of that. It was such a quandary for me--the whole 'having a glass of champagne' thing that I decided that I would never celebrate another anything, or mourn another loss, with booze. So there, Booze! You don't get a place in a special way on a special day!) Anyway, bac to the post at hand!

Nice job on the taking care of yourself, Stuck. You might not think it now, but I hope you do or will soon. It takes some moxie to get into the hospital for detox, check out, and then still look actively for solutions. I'm impressed. I'm also sorry, obviously, because that is really, really lousy. I'm glad you're okay.

I see lots of things that might be questions in your post... I'm not sure which direction to go. The sensitive skin thing has definitely been reported before. I'm not sure what that's about and can't really remember now if I had it happen. I can only vividly recall the truly sucky ones, though, and eventually those may disappear too. I'll forget how much it sucked to birth the baby, or worse, become a side-effect-denier! :H (not likely.) Anyway, the SEs tend to be dose specific (in my and many other's experience.) Is it annoying?

The drinking thing...hmmmm. I had many similar experiences in AA. I knew that eventually the decision to drink would win out in spite of how much better my life was when I wasn't drinking, and how much I didn't want to drink. I always wanted to drink. It's what I do. (did.)

One of the promises of baclofen, for me, was that I could drink on my way up and that it would still work. I did, and it did. I'm pretty clear that drinking made it worse, almost unbearably worse, just as it does everything. So I'm not sure what to say here... If your drinking anything is landing you in 3 week binges (or any kind of binge) and/or hospitalized, don't drink. (duh. I know. But I have to say that or I might get into trouble of some sort.) If you're bingeing because you're depriving yourself, I'd look at that.
I do not (obviously) believe that to drink is to die...At least not instantaneously, or even suddenly. Nor that one drink will take one right back to where the last one left off. It's just not my experience. (I have met some in the rooms for whom this was true, though.) What's yours? 'cause it could be that the anxiety related to the whole thing makes the whole thing that much worse.
If it is no longer true that one thing follows the next as a matter of certainty, then it all just becomes a game our minds play. "What if I have two?" "What about next time?" "Have I failed? Has this failed? Should I quit?" Followed by, "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrgh." Right?

Are you staying at 150mg because of safety concerns? There's some pretty convincing stuff that says it is safe to go higher. A lot higher, actually.
If you are unsure of what to do because you think it hasn't worked because you had two drinks...um. You had TWO drinks. And left the bottle of bourbon alone. That would not have happened in my world before bac. You?
As to the anxiety--that's the crux of this whole thing, maybe.

I gotta run!
Take good care.

Your doc sounds great. I understand her reluctance. There is some stuff you can show her related to HDB, but it's not likely (I wouldn't think) to open her up to prescribing more than that. You can get a legal script in the U.S. from doc in Chicago.

**StuckinLA** · April 27, 2012, 11:47 PM

Totally new to forum, sort of new to bac

Windy and Ne, thank you both so much for your replies.

Ne: when it comes to drinking, anxiety was definitely the turning point for me. It's always been my way of dealing with anxiety, I think, but a couple of things happened in my life that switched drinking to a cause of anxiety. So it was the treatment that caused the cause, if that makes sense.

My drinking really spiraled from there. Finally, back in November I went to the MD I'm still seeing for an anxiety attack. I just couldn't deal anymore, and I was for the first time honest about how much I drink--which may or may not be a lot, I don't know. I was at a 1/2 to 3/4 a fifth of whiskey a night, plus beers. Anyway, what she said then made a lot of difference: withdrawal was probably causing my anxiety attacks, along with elevated heart rate and blood pressure.

So now I was worried about drinking and not drinking, along with worrying about blood pressure. I went home for Christmas and pretty much didn't stop drinking until New Year's Day--which is when I went to the hospital the first time. When I drank next, of course, worrying about withdrawal caused me again to spiral very, very quickly out of control.

And no, the old me would never in a million years left bourbon untouched in the cabinet.

I have no doubt that baclofen has kept me from spiraling this time. I have no doubt whatsoever that it's working. But as far as that goes, the first time I approached my MD I felt completely betrayed that she wouldn't even consider it. I mean, how ridiculous is that of me? But it's how I felt. This time around I'm much more rational about the whole thing, and actually surprised and happy that she's still looking into it for me and trying to find someone here in LA who knows more about it. Nevertheless, her concern about the 150/d, even though it's still fairly low relative to what people safely take, did send me into that same kind of anxiety/panic that I'd been in before.

Suddenly I started worrying about baclofen itself--plus I started drinking again--and for the first time I had a kind of crisis-of-faith and an Oh-My-God-nothing-will-work moment. That's why I'm stuck at 150, that and the SEs mirror what many of my panic attacks feel like already, with the falling asleep and everything.

I guess if there's a question in this for you, or anyone, is this: do you know of anyone who stuck with a moderate (150) dose for a while on their way up? Or someone who titrated down before hitting their "switch?"

**Ne/Neva Eva** · April 28, 2012, 07:14 AM

Totally new to forum, sort of new to bac

StuckinLA;1306280 wrote: ...
But as far as that goes, the first time I approached my MD I felt completely betrayed that she wouldn't even consider it. I mean, how ridiculous is that of me? But it's how I felt. This time around I'm much more rational about the whole thing, and actually surprised and happy that she's still looking into it for me and trying to find someone here in LA who knows more about it. Nevertheless, her concern about the 150/d, even though it's still fairly low relative to what people safely take, did send me into that same kind of anxiety/panic that I'd been in before.
Oh, I so get that. I was so damn nervous when I told my doc about it last year. And I was already indifferent! When she asked when I last drank, I lied. It still bums me out. I still understand why I did it, though. I was still having a beer (or less) occasionally. There is NO WAY she could understand the liberation of that--being able to have a beer. (I am not suggesting that it's appropriate. I am just sharing that I felt free, and couldn't even begin to explain it to someone who defined success by abstinence alone. It is not the abstinence for me--that's a bonus, somehow! :H It's the fact that for the very first time in my life I don't want to drink. Which is hard to explain since I didn't want to drink when I was drinking like a fish...It's just two different things completely. Anyway...) (I should also qualify that statement and say that not everyone has the same experience, obviously.)
When I told my doctor how much I was taking (which was much less than I had taken) she balked. Very disconcerting. But you know what? She wouldn't have believed me had I told her how much I drank, either. Most people didn't. soooo... It wasn't up to her, and I'm glad I kept on even though it sometimes felt very, very wrong to do so. (God, I am so damn grateful that I kept on. I suppose I am feeling particularly contemplative this morning. Sorry!)

StuckinLA;1306280 wrote: Suddenly I started worrying about baclofen itself--plus I started drinking again--and for the first time I had a kind of crisis-of-faith and an Oh-My-God-nothing-will-work moment. That's why I'm stuck at 150, that and the SEs mirror what many of my panic attacks feel like already, with the falling asleep and everything.

I guess if there's a question in this for you, or anyone, is this: do you know of anyone who stuck with a moderate (150) dose for a while on their way up? Or someone who titrated down before hitting their "switch?"

I understand.
Yes. and Yes, most people titrate down before they hit a switch.
150mg is not a particularly moderate dose! It's a good, hefty chunk of bac, imho.

I wonder now what my rush was...It took me 4 months. What was another 2, or 3 to avoid some of the hellish parts? Then I wonder if it was just going to be hellish for me. Bac made me feel wonky almost from day 1. Why drag it out even further? I remember thinking that I wished I'd just quit my job and titrated up really quickly in a padded room with a caretaker and a bottle full of benzos! Seriously.

But it takes what it takes and a friend gave me some insight into the fact that the very length of time it took was what I needed to get used to the idea of not needing to drink, so I could realize that I didn't really want to drink. Who knew? :H Not me. That's for damn sure.

AA has a lot of tools I found very useful. VERY useful. Still do. Use 'em. And a doctor friend of mine told me that he realized in residency that he can do anything for the next ten minutes. Made me realize that I can do whatever the hell it takes, for however long it takes. 20 years. Lots of money/therapy/rehab/meetings. A chance encounter with a book in a library, an awful lot of baclofen and a support group made up of online anonymous people.

What the hell are the chances of that working when nothing else did???

:H:H:H It is very, very funny when you think about it.

Hang in there. At 150. Or 120, or 220. I am very, very curious to find out if a steady level of baclofen (in the higher ranges) and a given amount of time will take people to the same place I've found. Maybe you're the guinea pig? lol. (Two times a guinea pig!) That would make you quite the anomaly since I've never, not once, heard of anyone who stayed put and waited.

Did you see the thread about the guys who realized they were indifferent at low doses? I'll see if I can find it and bump it. Who was that??? oy.

**terryk** · April 28, 2012, 09:46 AM

Totally new to forum, sort of new to bac

Hey SLA-

A lot of what you said resonates with my experience (hospital detoxes, blood pressure, the cycle of anxiety/withdrawal, most of it really). I drank for 20 years - the middle 10 very abusively, and the last 5 nearly fatally. Drinking was a huge part of my life and my identity, and now that I'm indifferent, there's a space left in my life where the beer and whiskey used to fit in. The good news is, for me, the indifference doesn't leaving me wanting too much, because most of the time I forget to think about drinking (in the present or in the past). Bars aren't that much fun anymore...but it's not like I can't go if my friends are going, and if it's in front of me, I might have a beer or two every few weeks, but most of the time I opt for club soda.

I don't like to give any advice on how to take baclofen, and you alone have to decide whether or not you want to go up, down, or stay steady.

If you search my post history, you can read about the hard time I had getting to my "switch." For me it was a definite point, and unmistakable. I had to get up to 280 to find it, and have taken a long time to get down to 220 (more than a year) to maintain it. In the beginning, I titrated on my own with online purchased bac and was lucky to find a psych. who would also prescribe (having 80mg/day officially prescribed and paid for by insurance is a great thing if you can take advantage of it - and you can supplement the rest from online purchasing if you need too).

Lastly, I'm including a link to a scanned medical journal article in one of the Consolidated Baclofen Information threads pertaining to the safety of longish term high dose baclofen if you want to hand it to your doctor (although it might not make much difference, and most regular docs balk at baclofen - I've had at least 4 say no) It's also in my signature below.

The safety of high dose baclofen

Good luck,
-tk

**StuckinLA** · April 28, 2012, 01:04 PM

Totally new to forum, sort of new to bac

Thanks again, guys, and thanks for the link, TK.

It just wouldn't seem right if I weren't always the guinea pig. Part of the weirdness is that I've been so up front with my MD that abstinence has never been my goal--getting beyond the panic attacks is, which is funny because I haven't really had one of those in a while. So cured, right? LOL. But of course that just makes me the drunk who goes around saying "gosh, I really need to cut back."

I think I am going to tinker a bit and come down slightly to see if I can improve the evening tiredness. I'll give some stats so people have a reference: I take 50/50/50 at about 9 am when I wake up, 2ish in the afternoon, then btw 7-8 in the evening. I get super tired most days anywhere from 4-6 and again around midnight, but I kind of pop awake right after. Again, that article was very helpful, given the peak blood concentration and 1/2 life.

So I'm thinking about reducing the afternoon/evening dose and I'll let you guys know how that goes.

As far as indifference goes. Jeez, I just don't know. My last "heavy" drinking was Wednesday night before bed, and that was just a little bourbon. Then two beers on Thursday and nothing yesterday. I kind of had a mini-freakout yesterday morning, realizing that whatever happens in the future it's too soon to drink without withdrawal repercussions right now, and the simple fact that I could have that realization is a big step for me. And then to decide not to drink--even sitting in a bar with some friends, and at the train station, thinking one drink would probably help 'cause I was feeling kind of wonky but then going to Starbucks instead. And nothing last night even though there's booze here. I mean, it's not indifferent but it's such a big difference. And then to wake up today and slap myself on the forehead because I think I'm feeling wonky due to a head cold and probably nothing more...

More than anything, I don't want a heavy drinking night to turn into morning "hair of the dog" cravings because that's always led to at least a second day of heavy, all day drinking. I'm actually already there. Bonus: making the conscious decision to maybe not do the heavy drinking at night in the first place.

So I will let you guys know how it goes, and hopefully add some experience/knowledge to the pool for others--since it so often feels like we're going it alone here.

**spacebebe01** · April 28, 2012, 01:23 PM

Totally new to forum, sort of new to bac

"More than anything, I don't want a heavy drinking night to turn into morning "hair of the dog" cravings because that's always led to at least a second day of heavy, all day drinking. I'm actually already there."

Its great you realise that

**StuckinLA** · April 29, 2012, 06:12 PM

Totally new to forum, sort of new to bac

Anybody know Thirdman? I ran across a post of his saying he knows a doc in LA who prescribes HDB and I'm hoping to connect my doc with his. I sent him a PM early this morning, so I'm not really expecting an immediate response, just wondering if anyone knows anything...

**COSGringo** · May 3, 2012, 05:58 AM

Totally new to forum, sort of new to bac

If you can deal with the sleepiness I think maybe go a bit higher but I am not a doc and please don't take this as advice. Everyone is different. I can get away with the SE's but where you are at was the worst for me. I went a bit higher and it wasn't bad. I am at 250 now and the sleep cycle is all over the place. Thank god I work from home. It has helped me but sometimes I drink to deal with the SE's. However I don't touch anything before 4 pm which sounds weak but that's amazing for me. I think I could skip drinking but it's such a habit and I feel like junk at night. I think maybe my switch is around the corner.

**StuckinLA** · June 8, 2012, 11:05 PM

Totally new to forum, sort of new to bac

Quick update:

Going up from 150, at 175 now and continuing 10/mg every 4 days-1 week, depending on how I feel SE-wise.

Problem is my anxiety is through the roof and my drinking is back to nearly out of control. Well, I should qualify that: drinking starting in the late afternoon/evening and going through the night. So not "out" of control--more like where I was a year ago rather than where I was last time I went to the hospital.

But I'm still pretty concerned. I know I shouldn't be drinking, but the afternoon anxiety gets me and before I know it I'm reaching for a beer and then I'm pouring whiskey.

I plan to continue titrating up on bac, but does anybody have any thoughts? Am I totally screwed or is there some hope here?

**COSGringo** · June 8, 2012, 11:38 PM

Totally new to forum, sort of new to bac

Might need some benzos I hate to say it. You can get SE's like that from baclofen. Do you have a doctor that would be willing to prescribe you some xanax or valium?
As Ne would say to me it's a tool. I agree with that.

**COSGringo** · June 8, 2012, 11:41 PM

Totally new to forum, sort of new to bac

Oh BTW, my switch turned out to be 230. Had to go up, feel like hell, go back down and something clicked for me.

**StuckinLA** · June 10, 2012, 03:22 PM

Totally new to forum, sort of new to bac

Thanks, COS. I've been reading through your threads, and that's been really helpful. I just don't know. I'm not even at 200 and I feel about done in. Yesterday I tried to make a real recommitment to abstinence, and nevertheless caved. Not bad, a couple drinks at the bar and a cocktail at home--and I was able to stop at that, even with more alcohol in the house, so I know I see progress.

But it's impossible to overstate the anxiety-consequences of not drinking straight through to passing out. By 5:30 this morning I was seriously considering an Urgent Aid, if not a freaking ambulance. Sure, a lot of that is just trying to stop the drinking, but man, I feel like I'm in a really bad place.

Going to see a doc tomorrow, hopefully mine but I go to a university student health and she might not be there. Either way, try to get the anxiety sorted and I've been breathing like crap lately, so maybe try to do something about that, too.

And as for the bac, ugh, I just don't know.

**COSGringo** · June 10, 2012, 03:33 PM

Totally new to forum, sort of new to bac

Why don't you stabilize where you are at for like a week. I think you might need some xanax or something along those lines. It does help. It's not another crutch.
I had some bad times myself. It was worth it in the end.
I am not sure how your doctor is going to react when you tell him about the baclofen. You might want to say you are having some panic attacks and see if you can get some anxiety medications. You do need to try somehow to cut back at least a little. The drink makes the side effects worse. I know that's tough to say.
Even if you cut back don't give up. I took me many months to get to where I am now. It does not happen in a month.
I am actually going down on my does a little and see if it still works.
Try to hang in there. I had my times when I thought about hanging it up.
I am good now and that's a great thing.

Welcome Guest to My Way Out Forums.

Announcement

Totally new to forum, sort of new to bac

Totally new to forum, sort of new to bac

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment