Who has found a way of eliminating baclofen insomnia?

[Greg]

I have tried getting up to high doses of baclofen several times now, but have stopped each time due to severe insomnia setting in and refusing to budge. I'm currently relying on Antabuse alone, which of course prevents me drinking, but I also need to find a way of dealing with cravings that I still get. The Antabuse does make it easier by removing the old "will I drink or won't I" argument in my mind, but there are still depression-related cravings (since I abused alcohol for years to temporarily escape depression).

Have many of you found a reliable way of reducing or eliminating baclofen-induced insomnia? I think quetiapine (Seroquel) was mentioned to me once on the forum, and I recall one or two others saying they have used alprazolam (Xanax), although I really need to keep away from benzodiazepines if I can.

Not taking any baclofen for several hours before bed helps with the insomnia while still at a fairly low daily dose, but it's more difficult to do this when trying to take a lot, since it means taking large amounts earlier in the day, which causes more side effects.

I'm sure some of you just put up with the insomnia in exchange for having less (or no) alcohol cravings, and I would do this except for the fact that regularly not getting much sleep worsens my depression a very great deal, which in turn reduces my resolve to stick with the treatment and keep away from the alcohol.

Anyway I hope everyone has been doing well since I was last here...I don't get a chance to be online sometimes, which is why I'm not here very much at present.

[Allthestars]

Who has found a way of eliminating baclofen insomnia?

Hi Greg, unfortunately one of the biggest side effects from baclofen is insomnia due to its action on the Pons in the brain stem which effects sleep patterns. Unfortunately one of the only ways to stop this is by counter acting the connections with the likes of Zoplclone for example which is a sleeping tablet which dulls down any electrical and chemical reactions that a drug like baclofen may cause to the brain. Obviously u need a prescription from your doctor for these, but I know a lot of people on here buy them online from the same pharmacy they get their baclofen from. But please be warned they can become a very dependant medication and u should try all other methods before trying sleeping tablets such as herbal kalms, nightall, meditation CDs etc etc. this is the speel a GP will give u if u ask for sleeping tablets as they would rather u had tried all other possible methods before u try sleeping tablets......and for good reason. Some people once started on a medication like Zoplclone find it very hard to let a natural sleep pattern commence again after stopping the medication hence the reason it can becom a dependant drug. I hope this helps a bit but know u r not alone with the insomnia side effect of baclofen.

[Greg]

Who has found a way of eliminating baclofen insomnia?

Hi Allthestars, thank you very much for your reply.

Yours is the first explanation I have ever read of baclofen's insomnia side effect. I always simplistically thought that a general CNS sedating and GABA agonist medication (even though it works at GABA-B not GABA-A receptors) would only increase the tendency to sleep, not decrease it. I have read that the two other well-known GABA-B agonists, GHB and phenibut, increase dopamine activity and can thus cause an activating effect, but I had thought that baclofen was a "pure" GABA-B agonist that would not have such an effect. It still seems odd to me that anything regarded as a sedating drug can render someone unable to get to sleep, although I have heard of paradoxical effects happening when large doses of benzodiazepines are taken.

Thanks also for your cautions about benzo/z-drug sleeping pills. I am indeed wary of taking them, mainly due to the risk of tolerance if taken regularly. I used alprazolam/Xanax nightly for a long time at one stage, and experienced tolerance to it, then had to withdraw from it using diazepam/Valium as a substitute. Not exactly fun. I have considered zopiclone but not (yet) tried it. Here in Australia it is illegal to import anything listed as a prohibited import, and this includes most benzos and z drugs, so any use of these would preferably happen via a doctor's script (I don't want customs officials intercepting a prohibited import, given the fairly formidable reputation our customs people have).

One medication that eliminates insomnia for me is trazodone, but it is not prescribed at all in this country, so I have to order it online. I am worried that customs officials will start getting suspicious if I regularly import two medicines, i.e. baclofen and trazodone. Neither are prohibited imports, but it would look suspicious if they kept a detailed record.

Thanks again for your input. I think that any drug used every night for sleep would end up causing a very real problem with sleep once stopped, so my method right now is to try and rotate several sleep-inducing medications that have a different mechanism of action, such as trazodone>doxylamine>l-tryptphan>benzo/z-drug>melatonin.

[terryk]

Who has found a way of eliminating baclofen insomnia?

Greg, I've followed your posts for some time, and I've got to say that you are one of the most methodical and rational people I've read on MWO.

Here's a an article that describes the role of GABAb recepors (and Baclofen) in sleep regulation (the full-text is available for free):

Differential effects of GABAB receptor subtypes, ... [J Neurosci. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI

and here's another that mentions GABA receptors, baclofen, ambient light, and shifts in sleep schedule:

GABA interacts with photic signaling in the sup... [Neuroscience. 2002] - PubMed - NCBI

My sleep normalized not too long after reaching my switch at around 10 months in total of being on hdb. During my titration I experienced the gamut of sleep disorders from stressful insomnia, to only needing 2-3 of sleep a night, and of course the daytime somnolence/hypersomnia.

I say it all of the time, my sleep is perfect right now. I take 4 doses per day and my last of 50 or 60mg right at bedtime (midnight). Zero defects.

One thing that occurs to me, is that even though my daytime somnolence is mostly gone, I can still get trapped by a nap if I'm sitting down too comfortably in the late afternoon/evening. When that happens, I have often have a really hard time falling asleep at bedtime.....So, my lifestyle involves a hefty dose of daytime coffee (about 8 servings throughout the day - before, when I was drinking and anxious from withdrawal, more than a cup or two and any after the morning would send me out of my mind at night). So *really* fighting the daytime somnolence (no naps!) might be a place to start.

As far as adjunct sleep aids, Melatonin has been a huge help at times. I believe 1-3mg is the standard/maximum dose, and taking more has no benefit. Melatonin doesn't make you sleepy, it invokes a sleep response in your body hormonally. I find that it works best if you take it when you actually lie down in bed, because if you take it and wait too long (more than 20 minutes) you can power right through the sleep response and you lose your chance.

Chamomile and valerian tea works too, and I've used diphenhydramine/Benedryl/anti-histamine when I've gotten desperate. I believe it may be contraindicated with baclofen, and I'm not recommending it, but I admit taking it (a bunch of times) and it didn't kill me.

I've taken Trazadone during detox and believe it is very safe based on experience, research, and anecdotal reports from lots of friends who still rely on it after quitting booze.

I've also seen Seroquel mentioned here, but am a bit wary of rare but possible side-effects (tardive dyskinesia).

Hope this helps, and I wish you the best, you deserve it.

-tk

[Allthestars]

Who has found a way of eliminating baclofen insomnia?

Ok I will try to describe it as easy as I can without going into too much medical detail........ You are correct in saying that GABA antagonist medication have sedation properties, hence the reason baclofen was first trailed as an epileptic medication and is used widely across the world for muscle spasms especially in ms patients. So baclofen will always retain its sedatory value, so patients with muscle spasms will find the same dose of baclofen over many years will still help with their muscle spasms as it dulls down the motor response of the nervous systems from the brain ( via each synapse at each axon junction) to each muscle in turn stopping the spasms. However when a patient uses baclofen at high doses ( remember a high dose of baclofen via prescription is 80-100mg .....except when using a baclofen pump then that's a different story) often results in residual sleep dysfunction and does not improve slow-wave sleep which it previously would have done, and adjunctive GABAA receptor modulators, such as benzodiazepines and zopiclone can over ride this and almost dull the GABAB receptors. I can go into lots more detail if u want.........did a medical degree and worked for nearly 15 years in the medical field before I had to retire due to an injury......so could go on for hours indepth if u want the long boring side lol

[azurmyst]

Who has found a way of eliminating baclofen insomnia?

Is there a pharmacy in the US for Baclofen. I finally ordered some from Inhouse and it will take 3 weeks to get here. I am disappointed. I wanted to start sooner. How does the group like River?

[Allthestars]

Who has found a way of eliminating baclofen insomnia?

River seems to have one of the best names on this forum

[Grommet]

Who has found a way of eliminating baclofen insomnia?

River is the bomb. They seem to be taking over the online Bac world and it is well deserved. I order the Lioresel 25 mg tabs - 10 to 12 days to the Eastern US like clockwork. Plus, they always answer the phone. I think it is a nice lady in Canada that works out of her house but she is lovely and on her game.

With regard to insomnia, I think NE said it best at one point - don't get out of bed. I have a little radio with an earplug and listen to the BBC broadcast on my local NPR station, Just try to keep my eyes shut and not stress.

[Greg]

Who has found a way of eliminating baclofen insomnia?

Thanks to both Terry and Allthestars for your informative replies. It never ceases to amaze me at how many more things there are to learn about medications, just when I thought I already knew most of the facts!

Regarding suppliers, Inhouse have been very quick in getting shipments to me, but that could be due to me being in the Southern Hemisphere, as they are (in Vanuatu). I will never ever understand how or why it can take any supplier the best part of a month to get a product to a customer, considering we have electronic payments via credit card and air transportation these days. How on earth can it take weeks or a full month to ship a small package that has already been paid for?? Unfortunately I have found this issue to exist with nearly all online pharmacies aside from Inhouse.

Anyway enough of my ranting...thanks again for the replies.

[COSGringo]

Who has found a way of eliminating baclofen insomnia?

Insomnia know it all to well. At this point my whole cycle is screwed up. I've used everything with very limited success. I have a scrip for ambien. Sometimes it works but usually not. I have a scrip for klonopin, valium, and xanax, I have trazodone and seroquel but if I take those and don't sleep the next day is terrible. I switch between melatonin/valerian, benzos, ambien, and god knows what else. I don't have much luck with any of it. My couch and basement have become my home. I don't like to keep my wife up. I should be asleep now to be honest. I just get used to it and can get a nap if things are real bad as I work from home. Else I drink Morning Thunder tea. The energy drinks made me want to hit the bottle to calm down.
I am sorry I don't have an answer for you but whatever you do I would switch between some options so you don't become dependent upon one. Odd to me but the benzos once would kind of get me high. They do nothing now except maybe relax me a bit. I assume that's from the Bac. If you have insurance and a doc you can probably get most of these without going to a overseas pharm. If not I can probably tell you where to go but PM me on that and I am only going by what I read.
River Pham is a great source of Bac. It usually takes about 2 weeks for me and it's only a supplement as I have a scrip for it too. River is good because they don't farm out your e mail and I have had no problems with CC. I would say if you need to get your Bac get a lot of it at once so you aren't getting a lot of deliveries. My mailman for that stuff is odd. Long story.
Good luck and stick with it if you can.

[_serenity_]

Who has found a way of eliminating baclofen insomnia?

Greg - I was taking Seroquel for a few months, and it did help me sleep. However, I found that I had to take so much that I would be zonked the next day. Lately I've been taking Doxylamine Succinate, which is the ingredient in Nyquil that always gave me the most wonderful sleep. They sell it in some versions of Unisom, and there are generic versions of that. I take more than the recommended dosage - usually I take about four of the 25mg tablets. It gets me to sleep with no residual hangover the next day. Getting good sleep has always been very important to my mental health and I've long struggled to find something to help me with that.

[Greg]

Who has found a way of eliminating baclofen insomnia?

_serenity_;1310652 wrote: Greg - I was taking Seroquel for a few months, and it did help me sleep. However, I found that I had to take so much that I would be zonked the next day. Lately I've been taking Doxylamine Succinate, which is the ingredient in Nyquil that always gave me the most wonderful sleep. They sell it in some versions of Unisom, and there are generic versions of that. I take more than the recommended dosage - usually I take about four of the 25mg tablets. It gets me to sleep with no residual hangover the next day. Getting good sleep has always been very important to my mental health and I've long struggled to find something to help me with that.

Thanks Serenity. I am not here all that often so sorry for my delayed reply. Unfortunately Seroquel has also given me some unwelcome next day effects, not so much sedation because I only took a low dose, but more of a pervasive feeling of "this stuff DEFINITELY does not suit me". I had a similar feeling when I tried SSRI's and bupropion/Wellbutrin. Yes doxylamine is helpful for sleep, and it works for me even at a low dose of 12.5-25 mg, although I find tolerance builds very rapidly if used nightly. Trazodone is another helpful one in my case. I find that if I can't sleep properly for more than 2-3 days in a row then my depression comes back big-time, and I rapidly lose all motivation to stay away from alcohol. Maybe I just need more willpower when this happens, and a remembrance of all the rotten effects of alcohol...I seem to get damned "euphoric recall", as AA and others sometimes call it.

P.S. Antabuse definitely helps with this sudden urge to give up on sobriety, because I just can't drink when I get these thoughts!

[suneelca]

Who has found a way of eliminating baclofen insomnia?

What's working for me

Hello, everyone. Been very busy lately, but -- as always -- this particular topic has been much on my mind, and hope what I've found -- which is working for me now -- helps.

First -- Google 'sleep hygiene.' I have a non-MD therapist who says that insomnia can be cured through cognitive behavioral therapy. Of course, this doesn't account for Baclofen -- but what's really helped is keeping my coffee intake to less than 16 oz per day. One thing he said is that having more than this can cut down on natural sleep cycles by one-third.

Second -- in spite of that, have been doing better living through chemistry, specifically Lunesta plus 25 mg of Seroquel. But what I found that one big way to beat the somnolence was by hoovering a lot of water. Maybe I was drinking too much coffee -- which is a diuretic -- and not enough water? Eating helps too.

Third, dosing at noon, three, and six PM. Seems to be helping. But there are so many variables at play, who knows?

Last night, only took Lunesta plus a couple of Advil PM, and little, if any somnolence today.

Reader, draw your own conclusion ...

Otherwise, life is good out here in the Bay Area. I have no complaints! A shout out to all of you.

[COSGringo]

Who has found a way of eliminating baclofen insomnia?

I am finding doxy is not cutting it for me alone. Seroquel at 25 mg seems to do me the best. I had mixed results with traz but might try it again. I am going to see how nitrazepam does for me next.

[Greg]

Who has found a way of eliminating baclofen insomnia?

I have found that doxylamine only works for 2-3 nights in a row for me, then I seem to have a total tolerance to it. Around 12.5-25 mg is the dose I usually take, so a higher dose could allow it to work for longer I guess. I have found trazodone 50-100 mg to be useful, with less tolerance...75 mg seems to give the best compromise between effectiveness and not too much next-day sedation. Seroquel creates some odd feelings the following day for me, so I am trying to use other things now. Xanax has also helped in the past but I seem to need a fairly high dose, and I am now trying not to use it if possible. If I find anything else to be helpful I will post again about this issue.