Anticonvulsant+muscle relaxant alcoholism treatment : 70-90 percent claimed success

[Greg]

A few nights ago here in Australia, one of our TV programs Today Tonight featured a segment about a new type of hospital treatment program for alcohol dependence, in which the claimed success rate is 70-90 percent. To be more specific, the claim is that 80-90 percent of patients are improved, with an incredible 70 percent becoming abstinent. I don't know how much the patients were drinking each day however, or for how long, or if many had other issues such as pre-existing anxiety or depression.

I didn't see the program when it aired, and when told about it, my first reaction was what our former loved-and-hated Murphy would have said..."bollocks". However, I moderated that view a bit when I read more about this program, and realised that it is being run at a well-known and respected Australian hospital by a Professor who is a neurologist and addiction specialist with years of work in the field. In other words, it's not one of those fanciful claims of incredible success rates sometimes made by private money-driven rehabs, crackpot individuals, CBT/counselling enthusiasts, or a spiritually-based group. The fact that it is largely medication based, and using medications that are not just antidepressants or the same old officially-approved alcoholism drugs, further increased my interest.

Professor Jon Currie is running this from the St. Vincent's Hospital's Department of Addiction Medicine in Melbourne, Australia, and his statement about the medications used is as follows:

We are using epilepsy medications and there is a medicine used for muscle spasms which is fantastic for craving with alcohol. All of these are new uses for old medicines

I can only guess, but the muscle spasm medication could well be baclofen, while the epilepsy medications could be topiramate/Topamax aswell as a few others that have anecdotal reports of efficacy in alcohol and benzodiazepine dependence, such as Tegretol/Trileptal and gabapentin. The combination of these drugs, rather than using just one, could allow success without needing huge doses of any one drug (strictly my speculation only). It is also notable that these medications are ones that do not have tolerance as a reported problem, unlike benzodiazepines for example.

Anyway I thought it may be useful to post about this on the forum, and anyone wanting to read the full story can follow this link:

Today Tonight - Addiction*Doctor

I admit it all sounds too good to be true, and an old and true saying haunts me with things like this..."if it sounds too good to be true, then it generally is". I feel skeptical when anyone claims that one treatment can cure heaps of problems, but this guy also states that he is flexible with the medication treatment, tailoring it to suit the particular addiction or compulsion.

I live a long way from this hospital, unfortunately, but I will see if I can find out any specific details. If I hear anything more definite, I will post again.

EDIT : The claim that this Professor is the first in the world to develop a program that can switch off the part of the brain that controls cravings made me highly suspect at first, since we know Dr Ameisen claimed this result from very high doses of baclofen back in 2004 or so. In this case, however, there is an actual treatment program for patients to attend, if I have read it right. Also, in this case, hopefully the result is obtained using dosages of medications that are within usual guidelines, rather than the 2-4 times usual maximum dose that usually applies when baclofen is used as the sole treatment.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Anticonvulsant+muscle relaxant alcoholism treatment : 70-90 percent claimed success

Greg;1315098 wrote:

Professor Jon Currie is running this from the St. Vincent's Hospital's Department of Addiction Medicine in Melbourne, Australia, and his statement about the medications used is as follows:

We are using epilepsy medications and there is a medicine used for muscle spasms which is fantastic for craving with alcohol. All of these are new uses for old medicines

I can only guess, but the muscle spasm medication could well be baclofen, while the epilepsy medications could be topiramate/Topamax.

It is reported on wikipedia that baclofen was originally designed as an epilepsy medication. I could not find a link to verify that report, so I'm not sure it's accurate. And as far as I can tell baclofen has never been used to treat epilepsy, and was suspected to be contraindicated for people with seizure disorders (though these have been refuted with further research.)

That said, there's only one med they could be talking about.

It works.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Anticonvulsant+muscle relaxant alcoholism treatment : 70-90 percent claimed success

And Hi, Greg!

[Greg]

Anticonvulsant+muscle relaxant alcoholism treatment : 70-90 percent claimed success

Hi Ne, I hope all is going well for you. I'm not on the forum every day, so am not sure how everyone here is going.

Regarding baclofen as an epilepsy medication, yes I remember reading about it being developed for epilepsy but not being very successful for that application. My own opinion is that its very short half-life and maybe its GABA-B agonism (different to the way other anticonvulsants work) could make it unsuitable. That's just a semi-educated guess, but anything with a very short half-life would (my opinion again) make it dangerous as an anticonvulsant, unless available in extended/slow release form. Taking anything with a rapidly reducing plasma level seems a bad idea to me, not just for epilepsy but also anxiety

Yes they must be talking about bac as the muscle spasm medication with strong anti-craving properties. I'm pretty sure they are using "normal" doses of bac, reinforced by one or more recognized anticonvulsants, but I may know more about this if they answer a couple of emails I have sent to the hospital's research professors.

I hope they are not just bullshitting, as we say here down under, because this addiction has destroyed more people throughout history than any other, and it will continue to do so without effective treatment.

[spacebebe01]

Anticonvulsant+muscle relaxant alcoholism treatment : 70-90 percent claimed success

Thanks for that Greg, interesting article, I am always happy to see medical research on alcoholism, it shows changing thoughts about it away from the traditional just dont drink idea. and sending people off to 12 step fellowship run groups or rehabs.

I am already taking bac and gabapentin and I think there are a few of us on here that take both of those medications together. Im not sure about peeps taking topa tho, I think on here they just seem to stick to that one med, I think tho I could be wrong.

I havent lost all desire to drink tho, so either maybe its different meds they are using ie not bac and gabapentin or the dosages are different, where the guy Micheal who was a heavy drinker and didnt drink after the consultation that would say to me a different veiwpoint in his mind rather than the medication doing it, one metting, maybe one lots of pills, then abstinace sounds great, almost too good to be true. Maybe the meeting gave him hope to keep him going until the medication started working, we dont know.

[struggles]

Anticonvulsant+muscle relaxant alcoholism treatment : 70-90 percent claimed success

Hi Greg~

I have a dr. who uses topa with bac, if needed. I started on the topa, horrible side effects at first, but eventually they went away. I went up to 75mg and found no cravings so stayed at that dose and did not seem to need the bac with it.

However, a few weeks ago, I found some empty beer cans I hid in my closet. Something in me said, you have been doing so well, go buy a six pack....I have been drinking everyday since from 16-24 beers and stopped the topa.

WHAT A HUGE difference the topa made. I have an appt with the dr. to tell her I "fell of the wagon" and will start the topa again, and maybe this time I will learn to listen to that voice in my head that tells me how happy I am and to NOT have any.

She also prescribed me gabapentin...aka neurontin..for anxiety and tossed my xanax. I had horrible effects with the gaba, so I don't take it. But, yes, my dr. here is doing the same type of treatment....and it's all off label.

I feel like she saved my life, but I need to get back on track. For me, topa works.

[GingerDust]

Anticonvulsant+muscle relaxant alcoholism treatment : 70-90 percent claimed success

That's very intriguing, Greg. Thanks.

Greg;1315098 wrote:
Professor Jon Currie is running this from the St. Vincent's Hospital's Department of Addiction Medicine in Melbourne, Australia

If I recall correctly, he was co-author on a report (can't really call it a study) of four patients who had success with baclofen. I thought (and still think) that a published report of only four individuals is pointless at best. That report also mentioned other drugs being used alongside baclofen in those four cases (I think campral was one, maybe topa was mentioned too). If I recall correctly, only one of the four used a high dose of baclofen, "high" being around 110 mg (which would be low for most here).

I think you are right to take it with a grain of salt. We've heard it all before (100% success rate, no significant side effects, etc.). But it would be great if he found a way to use other drugs in order to get the beneficial effects of baclofen without having to use high doses.

Please let us know if you get a response to the emails.

[baclofan]

Anticonvulsant+muscle relaxant alcoholism treatment : 70-90 percent claimed success

My Pdoc prescribes me daily combo of 60 mg of baclofen and 200 mg of topamax for quite some time now. I'm taking only 75 mg of topamax at the moment tho and no baclofen.

[Otter]

Anticonvulsant+muscle relaxant alcoholism treatment : 70-90 percent claimed success

The thing with Baclofen is that it creates a "space" in which one can decide whether to have a drink or not. If you have that space long enough then you can create a habit. If you keep drinking you damage your progress and eliminate that space, in some people. If you have other problems, like a neurological deficit or damage from, say, stroke, or even huge stress in your life, it helps but you may need something more.

Our doctor prescribes baclofen now as well as anything else which might help. It is a long road for some but Baclofen can make a huge difference for a lot of people. It is a shame that there is still reluctance to use it considering its safety record. If it works only for some and only to allow them to control their drinking, that is better than nothing and it should be prescribed if requested. It seems things have slowed down on this board. I think it is because there are now a lot of doctors who know about Baclofen and people are getting prescriptions and help with it from all sorts of places apart from here. It used to be this was the only place. Now people all over the world know about it.

[Greg]

Anticonvulsant+muscle relaxant alcoholism treatment : 70-90 percent claimed success

GingerDust;1315189 wrote: That's very intriguing, Greg. Thanks.



If I recall correctly, he was co-author on a report (can't really call it a study) of four patients who had success with baclofen. I thought (and still think) that a published report of only four individuals is pointless at best. That report also mentioned other drugs being used alongside baclofen in those four cases (I think campral was one, maybe topa was mentioned too). If I recall correctly, only one of the four used a high dose of baclofen, "high" being around 110 mg (which would be low for most here).

I think you are right to take it with a grain of salt. We've heard it all before (100% success rate, no significant side effects, etc.). But it would be great if he found a way to use other drugs in order to get the beneficial effects of baclofen without having to use high doses.

Please let us know if you get a response to the emails.

Yes, we heard similar inflated, impossible success rates for both high-dose baclofen (99 percent claimed success at one stage) and The Sinclair Method. In the case of TSM, I read that the average alcohol intake of the patients was a ridiculously low amount, something like 30 standard drinks a week I think. It was barely above the accepted safe daily drinking limit, whatever it was. If this latest hospital program only has a few patients, or only accepts carefully selected cases, then the latest claims will be similarly meaningless.

I will post again if I do get a reply to my emails, even if the response is not encouraging.

[Greg]

Anticonvulsant+muscle relaxant alcoholism treatment : 70-90 percent claimed success

Otter;1315381 wrote: The thing with Baclofen is that it creates a "space" in which one can decide whether to have a drink or not. If you have that space long enough then you can create a habit. If you keep drinking you damage your progress and eliminate that space, in some people. If you have other problems, like a neurological deficit or damage from, say, stroke, or even huge stress in your life, it helps but you may need something more.

Our doctor prescribes baclofen now as well as anything else which might help. It is a long road for some but Baclofen can make a huge difference for a lot of people. It is a shame that there is still reluctance to use it considering its safety record. If it works only for some and only to allow them to control their drinking, that is better than nothing and it should be prescribed if requested. It seems things have slowed down on this board. I think it is because there are now a lot of doctors who know about Baclofen and people are getting prescriptions and help with it from all sorts of places apart from here. It used to be this was the only place. Now people all over the world know about it.

Hey Otter, I'm glad to hear your doctor is willing to prescribe baclofen now. Also glad to hear that doctors in general are becoming more open-minded. They infuriate me when they refuse to try something just because it's the patient who suggested it, or because they consider it "too much of a risk"...when not treating alcoholism carries the very real risk of death.

[windycitylady]

Anticonvulsant+muscle relaxant alcoholism treatment : 70-90 percent claimed success

Hey all. My first thought was that the muscle relaxant was bac and the anticonvulsant was gabapentin, not that bac was an anticonvulsant.
Just sayin...
Anyhow, great stuff, Greg. Thanks.

[Otter]

Anticonvulsant+muscle relaxant alcoholism treatment : 70-90 percent claimed success

I think that the muscle relaxant aspect suggests it it baclofen or something which also works on spasm. I say this because I just picked up Ameisen's book again and he plainly says that he was sure his anxiety was part of his own muscular tension problem which gave him nervous leg syndrome. I have been going on about this and not got much interest or support here. I am sure the part of the brain which is responsible for spasm and anxiety are the same, the amygdala. It is a central part of the brain translating input and output of billions of neurotransmissions. It is the anxiety/fear center of the brain. Just think how we equate anger and nervousness with shaking. If this response center becomes damaged then there is a problem, whether it is through drinking or stroke, or if there is a shortage of the chemical which calms it down. It seems alcohol and baclofen both calm down the center which allows for clearer thought. It then becomes a challenge to use that opportunity to change the lifestyle and behaviour which led to the stress. If the damage is organic though, that may make the process much more difficult, ie., in stroke or head trauma.

I am finding more doctors know about this medication now and I know doctors are using it in England for GBL addiction so it is gaining ground. My feeling is that if it were to become "public knowledge" that would help everyone suffering from this illness because part of the problem is the perception of "once a pickle, never a gurkin". It is a major impediment to recovering from any illness if there is no support for it and right now, society takes a view of alcoholism as incurable and a question solely of will power.

[spacebebe01]

Anticonvulsant+muscle relaxant alcoholism treatment : 70-90 percent claimed success

Hi Otter, do you know what doctors in England are prescribing bac for alcoholism. It is very crap if they are trying meds to help with GBL addiction which until I just read about it then didnt really know much about it, but still ignoring the massive alcohol addiction that has been going on around them for so long and I think is increasing.

I am not meaning that GBL addiction should be ingored its great that its getting treated so quickly, it would be even better if it was made illegal like it is in other countries but then there will just be a replacement found, by the sounds of it GBL is a repalcement for GHB which was made illegal.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Anticonvulsant+muscle relaxant alcoholism treatment : 70-90 percent claimed success

There I go jumping on the bac-wagon again to the exclusion of other things...
WCL, the gabapentin thing really rings true for me, too. Not that I'm trying to add more conjecture. It has been a pretty amazing addition for enough people around here that it makes me very curious.

I found these videos when I looked up the doc:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aQ4hQgozGs[/video]]Jon Currie part 1.mp4 - YouTube

It wasn't actually the same format as what I watched yesterday, which was on a website from the actual seminar, but I think it's all the same info. I learned a lot from it.

There are now docs/rehabs in NC, NY, GA and MN (All U.S.) As well as a couple of other places I can't remember offhand.

Otter;1315381 wrote: The thing with Baclofen is that it creates a "space" in which one can decide whether to have a drink or not. If you have that space long enough then you can create a habit. If you keep drinking you damage your progress and eliminate that space, in some people.
...

Not so sure about that.

Otter;1315487 wrote: I am sure the part of the brain which is responsible for spasm and anxiety are the same, the amygdala.
...
It seems alcohol and baclofen both calm down the center which allows for clearer thought. It then becomes a challenge to use that opportunity to change the lifestyle and behaviour which led to the stress.

Again, not so sure about this either.