An introduction

[Ne/Neva Eva]

An introduction

jaddyday;1348794 wrote:

A few of my friends have been asking how I will know when I'm on the correct level of Baclofen. I've told them that when I reach a point of indifference to alcohol I'll be there. However, I've been thinking about this for a couple of days ever since I read on someones (I think it was Ne) tag line "stopped drinking against my will on (date)".
...
What more, if anything, can I expect from continued titration of Baclofen? Is it really going to relieve my desire for a social life and do I really want it to even it it has that capability? Does everyone experience a eureka moment type switch or does it happen more gradually and subtlety for some?
Morning, J! (afternoon? I think you're across the pond? anyway...)

It happens both suddenly and subtly, I guess. I realized I didn't HAVE to drink anymore. Which happened gradually over the course of titrating up. But I suddenly realized I didn't WANT to drink anymore.

If you read around you'll find that many people found the taste or smell distasteful. Or woke up disgusted with the thought of getting drunk, or drinking at all.

There were times when I literally forced myself to drink--I think the alternative--of not drinking at all--was too frightening. I had to wrap my mind around it!

I can't speak to whether or not you'll still want the same kind of social life you want now. I can't imagine why, but I'm pretty sure that's because I can't imagine that being fun anymore. The major difference, of course, may be age, marriage, and perhaps (sorry!) maturity.
That last could be judgement. And if it is I apologize. But it might also be that you haven't really looked at life from the other side--meaning the one that comes with some reflection. Whatever, dude! I'm not here to mother or suggest alternative--or rather conventional :H-- lifestyles!

Clearly my raving days are over! (thank all that matters! The last one I went to I fell of the stage. And not on purpose. 4 inch heels. More booze than I can remember. In fact all I remember is coming to, on the floor, legs askew, everyone staring at me and with my skirt not in the right place. omg. dreadful.) Living on the edge for me these days might include dinner out and a concert. Or maybe staying up until 2am gabbing with one of my girlfriends. I bet that sounds absolutely ghastly! :H:H

I'm not suggesting you become a stick in the mud, by any stretch. And I don't honestly know what will happen. I am pretty sure that regardless of indifference, continuing to "party" regularly confuses the issue of drinking against one's will and no amount of baclofen will change that.
I hope that despite (or because of!) my thoughts, you'll keep up with posting. Many of us are older.
I just now remembered Lo0p! Dammit, I wish he'd show up again. Anyway, he's the same age as you peeps, and he hasn't had any issues with going out, partying, carrying on, or (as far as I know--and I know a bit) getting laid. (sorry loopster, for sharing your business.)

jaddyday;1348794 wrote: Christ we sound bloody similar! Lack of respect for authority, sexual promiscuity, incessant partying and trying to shag the bartender - you could have been talking about me!

You could be talking about me. ***
just sayin'

***EDIT: From a loooong time ago. Before I stopped going out, preferring to drink at home where it was "safe" and there wasn't anyone to pass judgement.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

An introduction

I have been ruminating on your questions and your thoughts. I'm still not ready to jump in with my own quite yet! :H

But wanted to say hi, and that I really appreciate the stuff you're sharing. For instance, what, exactly, is your expectation? That question and the fact that baclofen might offer a whole new direction for treatment is pretty profound. Right? I'm curious about what your answer is for your own experience.

I'm also curious where the balance is between absolute abstinence and harm reduction models of treatment. That's all we've got at the moment, and harm reduction is so new (sort of) and so wrapped up in kerfuffle it almost makes it moot.

Anyway! Now you can see why I'm not ready to respond! It's inspired a bit of mental masturbation (if you will.)

I will offer this thought, though. Your friends that don't get it? Come on fellas. If they don't have it, they won't get it. I would like to say that I've stopped trying to convince, or at least explain. But I haven't. The proof is in the life, and people are starting to figure it out on their own. THAT is very gratifying. It makes me smile just thinking about it.

[jaddyday]

An introduction

Hi Ne,

I'm glad I've incited a little "mental masturbation"! A few months ago I was in a really dark place. I knew that my drinking was totally out of hand and that I needed to stop but I had also experienced two years of abstinence which was an immensely unpleasant period of my life. So when everyone was telling me that my life would be so much better if I stopped drinking, I knew that they were wrong. Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't! I'm not really sure what what my expectation is but I suppose I want the holy grail - the ability to drink socially, for alcohol to play a part in my life but never again be the pre-eminent force. For me, a life without an active social life is not worth living. At the moment I am not thinking about alcohol all the time and I am able to go out and socialise with my friends, have a drink, and not have it turn into a hideous downward spiral. Baclofen seems to have given me what everyone has always told me was impossible. I thought I was condemned to spend my life in a never ending cycle of binge and abstinence; never able to make and maintain relationships or build a career. I feel free, like I've had a last minute reprieve from a life of misery in which death would have been a blessing. It is the most profound experience of my life.

I believe that the potential for this treatment is truly monumental and it will utterly revolutionise the treatment industry and I want to be a part of that. My experience of treatment has been a combination of theropy, faith healing and 12-step indoctrination. I wasted two years of my life and ?25K ($40K) to achieve a life which was no more palatable than the one I left behind. We can, and must do better than that.

I'm still formulating my ideas on how best to take this forward but I envisage community based facilities offering Baclofen treatment together with theropy, support groups and access to a psychiatrist for those who need it. They should ideally be publically funded. For me, the whole abstinence issue is a bit of a no-brainer. The majority who attempt it fail to maintain it for any meaningful length of time and instead live in a never-ending cycle of binge and abstinence. Baclofen removes the need for abstinence and therein lies it's strength. I first went to see my Doctor about my drinking ten years ago, aged 19. I was told to go to AA and that I had to stop drinking permanently. Obviously I found this totally unpalatable and decided to ignore the problem in the hope that I would grow out of it. A couple of years later I bought a nightclub - I bet you can guess how that worked out! Had I have seen the Doctor, been told that I had a neurological issue (rather than a weak will), that could be effectively treated with medication and that did not require abstinence it would have saved my family and me ten years of misery. I am sure that many more people would seek help earlier if Baclofen was offered as a treatment. It is also impossible to claim that addiction is not a real illness when it can be effectively treated pharmacologically. One of the greatest challenges I have faced and my biggest source of resentment is the complete ignorance and lack of compassion shown to me by those around me and society in general.

Established treatment providers are likely to be incredibly slow on the uptake so I think it is up to us to try and push this thing forward. To that end I have enrolled on a course to train as a therapist starting in September. When I have done that I plan to open a facility in my local area along the lines I discussed, backed by my own money.

With regard to my friends I've come to the same conclusion as you. In six months or a years time it will be abundantly obvious to all who know me that this treatment has worked.

Well, how's that for mental masturbation for you?! Apologies for the nauseating display of emotion at the beginning - frightfully out of character!

Hope you are well.

Justin

[StuckinLA]

An introduction

Alcoholism: the only disease people get mad at you for having.

[Kradle123]

An introduction

jaddyday;1348322 wrote: Good afternoon folks,

Well I'm feeling a little angry today. I went away on Saturday night to visit a friend - good night, lots to drink, no ill effects apart from an horrendous hangover from which I am still suffering!

I have just got off the phone to a friend who has been very supportive of late. However, when I told her that I had been drinking at the weekend she became quite scathing. I've been quite honest with her from the start in that my goal is not total abstinence. I've been there and done that, I did it for two years, it was hell. She just has this mindset that alcoholics can never drink again and have to go to AA meetings. She doesn't seem to have read any of the literature that I have given her regarding Baclofen. She keeps trying to coerce me to go back to AA - an organisation I hate with every fiber of my being (no offence intended to anyone on here) and one about which she knows nothing. The most annoying thing is that she is totally intransigent in her opinions but does not actually have a clue what she's talking about! Arrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

Anyway, I just had to get that out of my system! The trouble is that she is a really good friend and her advice is well meant, if misguided. I'm sure I'm not the first person on this board to experience this problem so any pearls of wisdom would be gratefully recieved.

Justin

Hi Justin:

I may be off base here and it comes only from my own experience.

When I found myself in a similar situation as yours a few years ago, angry over my friends seeming non support and 'not getting' it, I pretty much knew she did get it because my drinking around her caused HER problems which because she loved me she tolerated. When she discovered I was going to try to stop I know in my heart she was as happy for herself as she was for me. So when I drank again and wanted her absolution, she was pretty pissed...

All of this was unsaid of course. She never accused me of creating problems for/around her due to my drinking. But I would be lieing now (and I pretty much lied to myself then, just blamed her and her 'not getting it' she doesn't have a problem so she can't understand-) if I didn't say that she did have a problem and her problem was me. She was just to nice or emarrassed or reluctant a person to say it.
I think I lost a lot of friends that way.

Hugs to you,

:l

[Kradle123]

An introduction

StuckinLA;1349595 wrote: Alcoholism: the only disease people get mad at you for having.

Well Stuck,

IMO, there are lot of people who have pretty Good reasons to be mad, at least in my life.

I don't think I would have done half the shit I did had I had lupus...

:l

[StuckinLA]

An introduction

True. But they'd be pretty darned upset when you went around tearing people's limbs off, eating them, and howling madly at the full moon once a month.

Oh, wait. Lupus. I was thinking of another disease that starts with an L but is totally different. :H

[Kradle123]

An introduction

That would be Bella Luna... My German Shepard, right?
:H
DON'T WORRY THOUGH. She's mostly harmless.
:l

[Ne/Neva Eva]

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Kradle makes a very, very good point. I had forgotten to think of it that way.

But so does LA. :H

I am thoroughly prepared and eager to leave a whole bunch of words, because you are posting really good stuff, JD. But I'm out of time. Lucky you!

More from me after my first hot yoga class. Unless it doesn't go well. In which case, I'll post when I come to.
xo

[jaddyday]

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Hi Kradle/LA,

I probably fall somewhere between the two of you regarding other people. Firstly, I feel absolutely no shame or guilt whatsoever for having this terrible illness. I didn't cause it and am doing everything humanly possible to cure it. I am always honest with people about this because I think it is of paramount importance to demonstrate that addiction in not something shameful or that should be hidden. Ignorance surrounding addiction is manifest in society and there is no excuse for it.

I too have treated those around me very badly over the years but it has rarely been one-sided. Where the fault is largely mine, I apologise and try to put things right. More often than not they accept that and we move on. If they can't accept it then I don't want them in my life. I used to be consumed by shame and guilt over some of the things I have done. I can honestly say that I would have behaved differently in the vast majority of cases were it not for my addictions. I will apologise (never grovelling) and try to put things right but shame and guilt are no longer a part of my life.

Hope you are well.

Justin

[spacebebe01]

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Just a quick pop in to say hi Justin, Ive got nothing to add right now but Im loving your thread

[Ne/Neva Eva]

An introduction

There's a big difference between regret and remorse and understanding. It seems you know that, too.

My parents think that I was completely abstinent after my last stint in rehab (2005) until I told them I was taking baclofen (2010). They make all kinds of erroneous assumptions based on that. They also make all kinds of assumptions based on what I have told them about baclofen. Though I've tried to share ALL of the information about baclofen (too much apparently! :H) They now offer my husband a drink, or rather my dad does, because he understands (?) that he can drink occasionally. That would NEVER happen with me. It would be extremely painful to see me drink. It would also be very painful for them to hear that I was never abstinent. That I didn't actually accumulate 30 days in a row after rehab. That I started drinking daily within 3 months and never achieved more than a couple of days in a row after that. Except when I was with them. Which made me pretty eager to get home, get away, get to a place where I could drink. The fact that I can participate for as long, and as thoroughly, as I do now, is pretty disconcerting for them! :H That, and I call them at 9pm.
My excuses for the above things were believable in that they wanted to believe, and pretty consistent because I have never wanted to hurt them. Still don't. Though at some point (and I am shocked it hasn't happened yet) they'll have to know that I drank daily.

I figure it's going to come out, because I feel about it a lot like you do. It is way past time that this is out in the open. That addiction is not shameful. That it's treated as the brain chemistry malfunction that it is.

"But you wouldn't be an alcoholic if you didn't drink!" well, yeah, that's true. But I'd damn sure be something else. Miserable for sure. A different addiction possibly. Whatever. I was born with this. There is absolutely no question in my mind. And I've never had a 'normal' drink. Until my first one after February 4, 2011.

"But if you just stopped..." hmmm. Don't eat for a day and let me know how that works for you.

Here's what is amazing for me in this new part of the journey. I can see, now, where all the stuff in 12-step programs stems from. There is no question that they were on to something, right? The steps are set up to reduce anxiety. Eliminate the really awful feelings that are so pervasive in our minds. Give us tools and words and phrases to quantify or qualify what happens during craving or relapse.

The problem, for me, was that I could not identify that when I was in the programs because I was not being treated for the chemical part. And once I was treated for that I, like you, found immediate relief from all of the crap that burdens--namely regret, remorse, and resentment. Because I really and truly wasn't making rational decisions, because I couldn't.

Now I can. I can also be willfully dishonest without thinking that it might kill me, or without worrying that at some point I was going to have to make amends for it. wooohooo! :H Sick but true. I can lie! Which I did much more frequently when I was sick, but I do now too. And I feckin' revel in it. (The lie then was something akin to making an excuse about why I couldn't, didn't or wouldn't do something. "I'm sick. I've got the flu. I'm busy that day/night. My grandmother is not feeling well and I'm going to visit her." You get the idea.)

I'm also much more likely now to just say no. THAT is a real gift. (It's a woman thing. I swear we are genetically programmed to say yes to every damn thing every person wants from us. My mother is the WORST. But also the best, because she can't say no!)
"No I don't want to go to my second cousin's wedding in a gymnasium in Timbuktu! I don't know her and I can't stand her mother!" Or rather, just: "No thanks." I still try to be polite.

So power on, Justin. I've been passively (sometimes actively) looking for someone to do something akin to what you're thinking of so I can attach myself to the bandwagon. I was gung ho to do it myself, or try anyway, but it's going to take a couple more years. And I'm not sure that it's my role. Which might not be a bad thing in the grand scheme. I am VERY glad I didn't come out and go public a year ago when I was on fire to get this OUT OUT OUT into the public.
However, it is very lame of me that I still don't have a local pdoc and still don't reach out to people locally. But that, too, will happen eventually. Maybe when I spend a lot less time on MWO!

[StuckinLA]

An introduction

Sounds like yoga went well, NE? :h

[Ne/Neva Eva]

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It was brutal.
Ah, hell, Stuck. I just deleted my post. Sorry.
It was a long one and kind of got away from the whole point of Jay's thread and thoughts.

I don't think I'll repost it. Maybe later. Or maybe on my own thread, where it won't distract/detract too much!

[StuckinLA]

An introduction

:hijacked:

I thought it was pretty on point, actually. Especially the part about parents, drinking, and bac. The anger, the disappointment, the fact that there's family and friends who will always be pissed if they see a drink in your/my hand... I'm dealing with a lot of that, or will soon, and I bet Js got some of those issues as well.

But no biggie. I'm gonna wait for Js next post so he can wrangle this thread in and get it back on track!