HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

[MusiciansMallet]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

I'm still stuck at 30-40 mg of baclofen... although i'm fine with taking more in the evening. But, the side effects aren't going away. This has caused family members to f*cking accuse me of being "drunk" or "using" (i find this very offensive w/ 5 years of recovery from heroin, well from any drug, aside from an occasional drink; but i was never an alcoholic, in fact; i absolutely HATE being drunk)... So, i don't know, just to appease family members (which, I sort of HAVE to.. since they partially assist me w/ income for the time being) I may try stopping for a day or two to say, "HEY guess what? It was my medication.. get it now?" Uggh, I'm just really really pissed off at this situation.

I wrote an extended email to this individual too, doubt if she'll read it.

[RedThread12]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

How are you dividing your doses, MM? 30-40mg is not so much. I definitely hope you are taking at least 3 doses/day. Bac exits the system pretty rapidly, which is why there is no much emphasis on spaced out, even doses. If you're NOT doing that, give it a go. If you're taking most of it at one time, or even just to 2/day, the symptoms you describe would definitely be exacerbated.

If you're already doing this . . . well . . . nevermind And please, don't just stop taking the bac. Titrate down gradually. Avoid a psychotic episode and a trip to the ER. They can't help very much there, anyway. Just take 10mg less for 4-5 days, etc., etc.

Wish it weren't an issue for someone else. Sure seems to be helping you and your situation a lot. I encourage you to think long and hard about where you want to be in the "big picture." CAN you explain to your family that it's the medication, without having to stop taking it?

[spacebebe01]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Im wondering if its got any connection with the other meds your taking MM because at 30 - 40mg I dont think I was getting any se's and I think I was fine at that level for several months. (Then I decided to go up and DID get problems). Mind you thinking back when I first started taking bac I was probably only taking 15mg and my daughter kept accusing me of being stoned. It is a major problem when family are involved and were are trying to prove ourselves to them and keep them happy instead of being able to concentrate on getting better. I know I fall at that hurdle all the time with my family not accepting that meds arnt the answer.

I know you will work this out tho MM, I am amazed at the progress you are making reducing the stuff your taking. I know many, many moons ago when I wanted to stop taking methodone it was just ridiculous, I couldnt understand because I didnt get anything off it, like a hit of drunk or whatever but I just could not stop taking the stuff and it was doing me in physically, mentally I felt ok as long as I took it but physically I was a mess, I was working in a shop at the time and while my boss was there I dropped a ?5 note on the floor and he was looking at me waiting for me to pick it up and I was paniking in case my legs gave way bending all the way to the floor and I might collapse, OMG its hard to believe that I was probably in my 20's and early30's and felt that bad. The most bizzarr thing I think about that time is that I wasnt actually addicted to heroin when I was prescribe methodone in the first place. I was an alcoholic and was taking herion to try and reduce my drinking at the time. So I just eneded up an alcoholic with a methedone addiction!

Sorry for rambling on, once again x

[MusiciansMallet]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Spacebebe-
Yes, I think it is a combination between butalbital & baclofen that is causing excessive ataxia (err, discoordination) & the excessive drowsiness; i literally can't even sit down for longer than 20-30 minutes w/o getting these SEs. uggh. And if i start to nod off after sitting down for a bit & get up, I particularly get severe ataxia/discoordination.

To both of you, Red & Spacebebe-
Yes, the family thing is complicated. As I said, I attempted letters/emails to those involved, but they refuse to read them. Trying to just talk is even worse- I will bring up the the topic while NOT arguing, & start off by speaking very softly, nicely, & calmly... but it always ends up with me getting yelled at & being accused of being drunk or using. This one family member.... thinking just b/c she is some 40 years older than me means she knows more than I do about my OWN health & my own psychiatrist, well it pisses me off in and off itself!

For a recovering heroin addict of 5 years, this is very upsetting to me when I am being accused of using. And it is very upsetting to me that all but one of my family-members are willing to understand my situation by listening & reading my emails. Not to mention i also have a minor schizoid personality disorder, of which this same family member i'm having issues with completely denies- she says things like "just stop all your medications" & "go to a rehab center somewhere" & "just drink some warm milk at night and you'll be fine"... And any orderly & calm response? Completely disregarded.

Things were working, but this bullsh*t is horrible. This individual treats me like i'm still 10 years old; & she said- "i don't care if you go back up to your higher doses of your other medications, i don't want to you see you act like that" (yet, refuses to READ the normal SIDE EFFECTS of baclofen).... anyway, then I said, "Well, don't complain about how I should come off of suboxone or my other medications then!"..... she says "well I will".... She has treated her husband like this for years (who is my grandfather- this is my grandmother & grandfather i'm talking about; all on my dad's side. & my dad's side is completely non-supportive w/ my medical issues)

Anyway... sorry to sort of go off on my family situation there, but its seriously affecting my mental stability big time. I've had psychological issues since the age of 6 (including talk of suicide at THE AGE OF SIX!), which is coincidentally the same time my parents got divorced, heh. Anyway, my grandmother on my dad's side (individual i've been having problems with) denies & ignores this too.

Red-
Yes, I most certainly will wean down if i decide to stop. But then again, remember, I am still on a GABAergic drug (butalbital)... even though it is a GABA-a agonist & not a GABA-b agonist (like baclofen)- it will certainly assist in any withdrawal (plus i've been using very small doses for only 30 days or so).

ANYWAY: I really appreciate your lady's support given my sh*tty circumstances! If i weren't an atheist, i'd say pray for me, heh heh.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Hiya, MM. I'm short on time so this'll have to be more brief than I'd like. ()

The family thing...ugh. It makes me want to swear and rage and rant. I wish I actually believed that it's possible to completely ignore, implore or otherwise manage all of those relationships while you're taking care of what you need to do. I don't believe that, though. Still, that's what you've got to do. In some way, some how, you've just got to (at least mentally) figure out a way to tell them (mentally!) to f*ck off and get out of your head space. Because what you're doing will give you lifelong freedom, and that is worth almost anything. Eyes on the goal and all that. But I mean that, too, even though it sounds trite.

Here's the other important thing: While you're figuring out how to manage all that, don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. There's a big area between 30-40mg of baclofen and zero baclofen. AND if you're actually moving between 30 and 40mg (not taking the same amount every day) then that could (should!?) be a first step. I've said this a ba-zillion times: It doesn't work like that. It's not an as-needed anxiolytic in the sense that some other meds are. (You could get into the science of it all, here, but that's likely counterproductive. We don't know what we don't know and I know it works in this mysterious way to remove the stuff that binds us to addiction. Provided we take it regularly and consistently for a good length of time. )
If one is taking it to manage or remove a lifelong condition, one has to take a lifelong perspective. (Which is also lame as hell to write out loud, but I'll let it stand.)

One last thought: There were times on certain dosages that I had severe discombobulation. (ataxia. Whatever! ) When I went up, it stopped. All of my side effects were dose dependent, except insomnia. That sucker just sticks around, unfortunately. (And if you're not sleeping soundly, I'd look there first for a way to combat the other SEs.)

Take heart, Musician. The beast and the burden is on it's way out and the people you love and that love you will be a part of that new dynamic in ways you can't imagine right now. That's the way it worked for me. And many others I know. And that's the way it will work for you.

My thoughts and prayers (such as they are! :H) are with you today. I wish for you comfort, solace, strength and huge amounts of hope.
:l

[MusiciansMallet]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Well my fluctuations between 30mg-40mg was when i'd attempt to titrate upwards. Ideally I would've stayed at 40 mg... but couldn't b/c of the SEs.

I wish I actually believed that it's possible to completely ignore, implore or otherwise manage all of those relationships while you're taking care of what you need to do.

Heh, i've already done this... at least to the highest degree I possibly can: "Simple minds discuss people; average minds discuss events; greater minds discuss ideas." And all my family cares to engage in is personal gossip (at least the ones i live with), what is going on with everyone else in the family, how everything would be perfect if everyone just did things their way, etc etc -- which i don't care to be a part of that. & I take care of my grandparents who are not physically able. I wish I could just say f*ck it & move out (since this arrangement was originally for THEM)--have fun doing all the yard work, paint-work, and lifting anything over 50 lbs yourself! (because this is NOT the only issue i've had with my grandmother; she wants people to be the people SHE thinks they should be, which is why she wants me off the baclofen b/c she thinks i "enjoy" the SEs & am getting high off it.. & side note: for all she knows i am taking it to reduce my suboxone intake and intake of my other "psych" meds) ...but, being unemployed doesn't serve me well for any of this!

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Anyway- i titrated down to 25mg; yes, this is more than 10% which is the highest increment you're supposed to reduce from drugs that induce withdrawal -- but I've only been using the stuff for ~30 days.

I felt no adverse effects from my grudgingly dose reduction, I started yesterday. But I definitely had more of a "need" or "want" to use butalbital, no surprise there.. which resulted in me using 2000mg of butalbital.. probably enough to kill a small elephant. Although, my higher intake was also probably as result of the recent stressful situation.

[MusiciansMallet]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Anyway- i titrated down to 25mg; yes, this is more than 10% which is the highest increment you're supposed to reduce from drugs that induce withdrawal -- but I've only been using the stuff for ~30 days.

I felt no adverse effects from my grudgingly dose reduction, I started yesterday. But I definitely had more of a "need" or "want" to use butalbital, no surprise there.. which resulted in me using 2000mg of butalbital.. probably enough to kill a small elephant. Although, my higher intake was also probably as result of the recent stressful situation.

[MusiciansMallet]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

UPDATE:
...I'm at roughly ~15mg/day of baclofen now, divided into three doses (i say "roughly 15 mg" b/c its hard to gauge my exact milligram intake since I am dividing a small, 20mg pill. I'd wager that I am taking between 14-17mg). I used to crush the pill into a powder & divide it into equal piles & mix it with cranberry juice; but, too cumbersome. Anyway, I am feeling fine.

For me at least, there is definitely still psychoactive effects at even these low doses; it is hard to pinpoint, but generally, I get a mood stabilizing effect with a slight (very minor) intoxicating effect but also somewhat energetic in the morning. I would experience intoxicating-like symptoms before, but these effects were not positive, they were dysphoric (err, opposite of euphoric) at times even. By my evening/last dose of baclofen, I am still experiencing minor discoordination/ataxia & slurred speech, but not noticeable to others.

Although more than anything my use of buprenorphine (suboxone) has come back w/ a vengeance, & i am back on just under my prescribed dose now, 4mg (as I mentioned, I had miraculously dropped 25%-50% in a mere 7 days; from 4mg/day to 2mg-3mg per day. Previously--and before baclofen--it took me a year to do this, dropping from 7mg to 4mg). The impact on my butalbital intake is less certain (which was my main reason for attempting baclofen). Although that one day my dose did shoot up to a high amount; i'm generally still at around ~1500mg/day. The lack of immediate impact on my butalbital intake is likely b/c I never was able to hit my switch, or anywhere near it, due to the whole "episode" i explained on page 8.

OTHER ODD EFFECTS-

• increased urination: decreasing the activity of--or "relaxing"--the smooth muscles which induce bowel movements & urination is a common effect of many muscle relaxants. So I suppose this isn't that unexpected by withdrawing baclofen.
• increased bowel movements: Opiates & opioids (like suboxone, which I take daily as mentioned) cause constipation via relaxation of the smooth muscle. I'd typically have bowel movements once every 1-2 days (despite being a health-food addict, w/ a high fiber intake, & being a young & fit 27 year old). Now i have bowel movements 2-3x a day. In retrospect, I noticed even less frequency of bowel movements (& urination) w/ my higher doses of baclofen, again, not unexpected being a muscle relaxant; any muscle relaxant can theor-etically relax the smooth muscle (like opiates do; albeit via a different mechanism in the gut).
• decreased energyincreased pain (i have a cavity that needs to be filled)I used to wake up in the morning border line euphoric (before taking ANY of my meds- suboxone, butalbital/fioricet, & baclofen) with unusual energy (perhaps GABA-b rebound effect?), but not anymore. I am back to how things were before, it takes at least 2 hours to get out of bed.

[spacebebe01]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Hi MM, I am worried about you right now, because of the reasons you are doing this, I just think that emotionally this could mess you up. Because your grandmother wants you to act as she wants. I have no answers for you, I wish I did.

Let us know how you get on

[MusiciansMallet]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Thanks for your concern spacebebe... And yes, lol, emotionally it has messed me up (ever since i've stayed here- not just w/ the baclofen); I don't have any answers either- I have tried every mode of communicating information to her: letters, emails... about how I feel; extensive information on baclofen & my medical conditions.. BUT, she apparently thinks she is a psychiatrist & all I need is a warm glass of milk for my insomnia and to just "deal with" my other psychiatric disorders.

She has, unfortunately, been brainwashed by Naranon (for family members of those who attend NA)--especially since she ran the thing in our area for a few years & they didn't do ANYTHING but gossip.. (they're supposed to work 12-steps similar to NA & adhere to traditions nearly identical traditions of NA). But I recently stopped going when I found out the *real* intentions of most, but not all, people there (at least in my area). I brought up some questions in regards to the efficacy of AA & NA in a private email to my first sponsor.... i was accused of insulting every single addict in recovery & he promptly blocked my email address and he also deleted & blocked me on facebook.. And all I was doing was raising questions about my doubts.

Anyway- there's nothing to worry about in regards to my withdrawal symptoms, I am not experiencing any (from baclofen). Psychologically I am fine... I am just right back where I was before; at my normal doses of suboxone & at my previous higher doses of butalbital. I really don't have a choice (unless I want to go literally insane as a result of her emotional abuse & accusations) until I move out or until she passes...

[spacebebe01]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Bloody hell MM this is fucking crap, cant she see that its your health your talking about here, well now you tell me about her connection with Naranon no, I can see why she probably cant. I want tp say to you look after yourself and do what you need to do, whatever is truley in your best interests, but I also want to say there was a reason why you started on bac and came on here in the first place and do you really want to give that up?

Has your grandmother played a close part in your recovery so far and doesnt like that your doing something other than NA/AA. I dont think you are going to change her mind and have her approve of anything else so it is either put up with her going on or do what she says and you already seem to have made up your mind.

This is probably a stupid question but is there no was possible you can move out, you seem to be paying too high a price to live there. Is there no other family member you can get support from who can she what she is doing?

[MusiciansMallet]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

I'd say her opinion is affected somewhat that I am not attending NA (although I do attend AA once in a while; mostly for networking; i'm originally from a larger city about 70 miles north of here). But this whole fallout issue w/ NA is relatively recent & she's always accused me of using heroin or opiates (or "being on drugs"), regardless of meeting attendance, regardless of being an NA SPONSOR (until my fallout), regardless of my behavior or my actions (although I am on high doses of butalbital, they are for legitimate medical reasons... my tolerance has just gotten out of control & i want to get back at lower "maintenance" doses like w/ alcohol maintenance-users I see here; OR, use it as needed)- & this distrust was only magnified w/ my side effects of baclofen (YET- I went out of my WAY to TELL HER: "look, i'm trying this new medication; i will be getting such-and-such symptoms" etc etc). & mind you, there is no reason for distrust b/c I never stole from them or anything, I only lied about my use.. I denied using "drugs" at that time; But, uhh, it was pretty obvious since i would nod out constantly while in the middle of conversations, or nod out with a cigarette in my mouth. And granted, i've had NONE of these symptoms since she my clean date, 12/22/07.

And she was a close part of my recovery mostly b/c it was a social group for her to go to (Naranon). She never cared about specific things going on in my recovery (& i subsequently stopped caring anyway--or stopped attempting to utilize her for support. I was raised by a single mom & my dad was absent until my teenage years.. used to it!); she only gave two sh*ts if I was going to meetings once every 1-2 days & talking w/ my sponsor (and I obliged b/c I wanted to get clean); this was for the first 1-2 years of my recovery.. but I think this has set a precedent for how she treats me now, not like an adult.. my grandfather, while is less understanding of addiction & my psychiatric issue, at least treats me like an adult. It is very humiliating to be treated as if you're 16 years old again.

...& to your final question: No, i have nowhere to stay. There is one girl I know, but it is a BIG maybe that I could stay there, & it would probably only be temporary if it happened. What pisses me off is this: i'm on no illegal drugs- but her son (my dad) smokes weed (yes yes, a harmless drug; but still illegal..) & he's also borderline alcoholic, and he stays rent & bill free in their double-house they own back up in my hometown (that same "city" some 70 miles north I was speaking of earlier). They rent out the upstairs portion of the house to just BREAK even to pay for his ass.

[RedThread12]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Wowser, MM. Are YOU okay?

I read at all of this and I'm somehow losing "you" in relationship to everyone who is making your life a struggle. I was SO HAPPY that bac was working for you, in some way. But that actually is irrelevant if you truly are a victim of your circumstances. Is there ANY other option for you to take a stand for yourself that would empower you, instead of leave you feeling so much at the effect of other people? Because if it's really true that "they" have more power in your life than you have, it doesn't seem as if there IS a way out. And I don't believe THAT!!! Good luck!!

[MusiciansMallet]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Thank you for asking (and for your concern) RT... yes i'm fine, nothing i'm not used to; it's been going on for years.

RedThread12 wrote: Is there ANY other option for you to take a stand for yourself that would empower you, instead of leave you feeling so much at the effect of other people?

Oh I quite adequately stand up for myself. But when I do (which i always do), my life is made intentionally intolerable & miserable by the particular individual (grandmother).. so it becomes unbearable (& i end up doing things in my personal life- i.e., medications I take .. just to appease her!).. As I said, this behavior of hers predates even my bac use! & aside from accusations of "using" or being "drunk" absolutely nothing affects me from other people--their opinions, what they say or gossip, etc. Actually, this is a whole other issue w/ her--I am a private person.. polite & courteous with her (& her husband).. & i do *EVERYTHING* around the house for them (which is our living arrangements anyway- but i'm not treated like a roommate as I should be; but rather a 16 year child to be looked after).. but, I spend around 90-98% of my time by myself or w/ close friends, i'm just that way. I was an only child, no father around w/ a negligent mother..

So I suppose i'm "conditioned" to act/be this way. Whereas she had 7 or 8 siblings (somewhere around there), so she also thinks there's something "wrong" with me because I'm not like her in this respect (as in spending nearly every waking hour with them- b/c i have my own "apartment" in the basement: own shower, toilet, fridge, sink, full kitchen, living room, & bathroom). & this whole circumstance also causes her to start arguments (her slightly oncoming cognitive deterioration doesn't help either, i'm sure). & I always (NOT when arguing) bring up to her that THIS is one of the reasons I avoid her.. proof & point: i am closer w/ her husband, which isn't my biological grandfather, specifically b/c he is *NOT* as judgmental, does not jump to conclusions (as in, assuming i'm using b/c i'm not acting exactly the way he thinks I ought to be acting..), & he will often stand up for me to her, until she starts treating HIM like sh*t too.

Sorry to be a bit off topic... But, that's just what has been going on lately

[xhceescciynf]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

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