HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

[COSGringo]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

I say just keep it coming. I think you will be fine spreading it out 3x day. Just do it slow and you should try to keep it even. But whatever works for you that's good.

[MusiciansMallet]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Thanks Cos!

Yea, I decided to take around 5mg w/ my baclofen w/ my butalbital (about 1 hour ago)--and it seems there is no blockade effect when taken together (actually, at least as of now, it seems as if there is an additive effect)! So, i'm feeling fine. if i continue to feel OK, I will re-dose baclofen again later today (5-10mg) & i'll probably take it w/ the butalbital again but w/ much lower butalbital doses (since i'm starting to feel as if i don't need it; or at the very least, i need less b/c of the additive effects I'm feeling)...

Then, i'll top it off w/ my typical 10-15mg nightly dose as usual if i don't feel any adverse effects. The only thing is, I notice the butalbital to be less effective roughly 5-6 hours after taking baclofen. Although, since i'm at lower doses now, its really not that big of a deal b/c i don't feel like i need as much as I used to!

[COSGringo]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Sure thing. So you are in uncharted waters for most of us since it's mostly us former or soon to be former alcoholics.
I have seen reports on Bac helping people that had opiate and cocaine addictions. As a matter of fact I believe Dr. A started his whole process using bac based on the findings of a small study of mice using bac to stop using cocaine. Also a parapalegic sp? using it for his issues but suddenly gave up cocaine because of it.
I think it has a broad application but from what I've seen it's mostly being used for alcoholics.
You should document all this. Might be useful to someone at some point to be honest.

I hope it works on your issues. I've been down other roads myself but drink is what was my main poison. My worst was when I drank and started throwing back benzos with it. I don't even recall what I said but I was told I was a blithering mess. That really scared me. So I just went back to drinking and that was a bad enough road to travel.

[MusiciansMallet]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

COSGringo wrote: My worst was when I drank and started throwing back benzos with it. I don't even recall what I said but I was told I was a blithering mess. That really scared me. So I just went back to drinking and that was a bad enough road to travel.Yea I could see it being scary! Benzodiazepines (and to an even HIGHER degree barbiturates) so effectively & efficiently agonize GABA-A receptors that combining them w/ another extremely short-acting GABA-A agonist like ethanol/alcohol is a recipe for disaster. & for some odd reason, the amnesia tends to make people take more & more & more benzodiazepines or barbiturates b/c they've forgotten they just TOOK some. So yes, you're lucky you didn't land in the ER!

COSGringo wrote: I have seen reports on Bac helping people that had opiate and cocaine addictions. As a matter of fact I believe Dr. A started his whole process using bac based on the findings of a small study of mice using bac to stop using cocaine.

Yes, i've read similar abstracts (although, as i said, they're unfortunately lacking in actual double-blind studies b/c its not a money-making drug, PHRMA & pharmaceutical industries can't make much money on it since it's patent period has expired). Its sad though, this is the only mechanism in which we (here in the US, that is) only pursue potentially life-saving medications/treatments if they give private investors huge amount of profit/capital return. Our lives shouldn't be monetized! As of now, our only hope is if gov't healthcare systems in Canada, Australia, Japan, & Europe decide to pursue baclofen treatment & applying a protocol that could be copied (particularly France, but also Germany, Switzerland, & Netherlands which are countries renowned for treating addiction as a disease as a whole, combined w/ universal healthcare systems. There results, for example? ...all of the countries mentioned have legal heroin programs, where--if you don't respond to suboxone or methadone treatment--you get daily doses of heroin as needed; and injection of medical grade heroin is no more dangerous than injecting morphine daily, heroin is just a trade name, its actual chemical name is diacetyl-morphine..) ANYWAY, I digress..

COSGringo wrote: you are in uncharted waters for most of us since it's mostly us former or soon to be former alcoholics [.....] I think it has a broad application but from what I've seen it's mostly being used for alcoholics.You should document all this. Might be useful to someone at some point to be honest.

Yes, this is actually why i'm trying to keep updating this thread! Since at first my mind was not working quite-right... I am documenting everything so I can compile it all into a full-experience w/ this regime if it turns out to be successful! Plus, not to mention, I am a free-lance author by trade (well ONE of my trades, that is...)--and mostly on these sorta things- pharmacology, medicine, drug policy, politics, economics, & geopolitics/geocivics!

Buuuut, don't mean to go too much off topic; so, i'll be happy to respond to anything ya may want to ask or add that may be off topic.. but otherwise, i'll update tomorrow or tonight; since i've slightly increased my baclofen dose; and reduced butalbital/barbiturate intake! Right now, looks like i should be fine w/ 3x/day dosing of baclofen.. since I took a small dose roughly 4 hours ago & still feel fine & not dosing as high w/ butalbital so far! So, i'll probably be taking a 5mg-8mg dose in an hour max. Accompanied w/ 5-10mg at night! (and btw, no desire to have my small amounts of alcohol at night last 2 days & have been fine!)

[spacebebe01]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Hi MM, Im reading your thread with great interest

[MusiciansMallet]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Hi Spacebebe! Thanks! I'm interested in any opinions.. hypotheses.. etc etc. Although my first few posts are admittedly confusing; since I was still very mentally confused from barbiturate withdrawal + hangover/overdose effects from the HIGH doses of baclofen I jumped right into (doctor's know sh*t obviously!) ..BTW, can someone PLEASE tell me if we can swear here?? lol...

Anyway, i'll be posting another update shortly... i sort of switched up my baclofen dosing regime, as in- when i take it relative to my butalbital dosages. I'm also feeling fine, aside from some nighttime goofiness, w/ relatively higher doses, titrated up pretty quickly (at 20mg-25mg)... Anyway, i'll post more on my update when I have time, probably later today!

[MusiciansMallet]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

UPDATE:
Ok well, things were fine. But due to money issues, I may be severely screwed ($150-type-screwed) & can't afford to get my butalbital prescription. I've been on 20 mg of baclofen a day w/ very little problems.. but i don't know what to do, i'm going to be on less than 1000 mg of butalbital tomorrow.. then NOTHING after that, i'm all out.. probably for at least 2 days. Unfortunately, b/c of my last experience, baclofen doesn't help with withdrawal as i said before... but I may take a shot in the dark & try increasing my baclofen dose, just really really scared it will make some of the barbiturate/fioricet withdrawal symptoms worse.

So, if i don't post the next few days... i'm in withdrawal. I am scared as hell. Big time. You guys don't get how traumatic barbiturate withdrawal is.. its like severe alcohol withdrawal with delirium tremens & all... starting within some ~13-20 hours of last dose (with butalbital/fioricet that is, a longer acting barbiturate).

Please wish me luck. I am so sick of this. I just wish I could more stably titrate downwards on the butalbital... but this always screws sh*t up whenever something like this happens & I can't afford my medication. Once/if I am feeling better & get my Rx filled (and if don't get landed in the ER) I will post by the end of the week w/ any updates. I am not a praying man; i'm an atheist... but i don't mind stacking the deck; so anyone reading this, please do so. Any help is welcome.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Morning, MM.

Well, that's just not acceptable!
I'm quite sure that you know the ins and outs of managing your medications, but there isn't a solution?

And isn't going to the ER a better solution than w/d?

God, I am really sorry for where you are. I don't pray conventionally, but I'll be praying none the less.

Take good care and keep in touch, will you?

[MusiciansMallet]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Thanks Neva! Well, looks like I might avoid it- I may be able to get my butalbital tomorrow, but i'll have to go hat in hand for $152 from my family. Ugh, just to afford my medication

The ER has me logged in their systems unfortunately (back when i'd go in and out during my drug-using days of opiates)... they wont give me ANY medication for withdrawal unless i'm at the point of seizure (at which point, the psychological withdrawal is so intense, i can't even formulate thoughts properly, let alone drive to the ER)--anything less than seizures or convulsions & they send me home after having to wait for up to 6 hours. Unfortunately, most doctor's don't care at our local ER.


If everything goes well.. I will keep you guys updated these next few days if i'm able to get my medication tomorrow. I've increased my baclofen to 25mg a day; have taken 20mg already today.. and no ill-effects and I am okay at 1000mg of butalbital.. so i am going to try & stay at or around this daily dose of butalbital if possible. Even though this is a HUGE and SIGNIFICANT drop (really, you should only drop dosages every 2 weeks, not every 2-3 days like i've been forced to do). It seems at these higher doses of baclofen, its the only thing holding me together (seems as if i'm at my normal doses of butalbital, although still some uncomfortable at times in between dosing).

Thanks! Will update as soon as i can!

[RedThread12]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

I really want things to go well, for you, MM, and I hope they do.

I haven't thoroughly read all the conversation between you and Greg and COS regarding your scientific understanding of why you should keep on taking baclofen according to your personal protocol. Perhaps there is something there that outweighs Dr. Ameisen's experience, the experience of almost everyone who has successfully used baclofen to end addiction, and my own experience and observation of the past 4 years. If so, disregard the following:

Take the f'in baclofen at regular intervals throughout the day. Increase your dosage at regular intervals, in specific increments, according to your own body/brain's responses. I've told you this before. There's no reason that your protocol for baclofen titration should be any different than that of addiction to alcohol, in any way I can logically think it through.

Sorry to be a hard a**, but I guess I am when it comes to people (and it's not just you) who ask for help and then continuue to disregard suggestions offered by senior members who have been successful, and have seen and experienced enough to know what they are talking about.

Good luck. I really mean that. I think it actually takes some portion of pure good fortune to come out successful in this journey. That, and some common sense and research should see you through.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

:H !!!

I am not laughing at you, MM. I am grinning loudly at RT's response. She's got a point. I can't advise (and wouldn't dare) about the butalbital, but I CAN advise (and do so even when it's completely unwarranted/unwanted ) about the bac.

Dude. You know enough about this stuff to know that the way they work most effectively is a slow and steady amount in the bloodstream/brain. You are not going to get where you want to be by rushing it. That's a guarantee. Unless, of course, your DOC has some miraculous properties. Which it probably seemed to do when you started it, and we ALL know where that ends up. :H and :boohoo:

So glad you found (hopefully) a solution to this crisis. It's so hard to sort out life, and avoid crises, when one is in the middle of a life-battle. (and amazing how effortless it is to avoid them when the battle is won!) Keep up the good fight. And keep up the keeping in touch. You could help many others, here, too.

:l
(oh. And take the bac regularly, in regularly increasing increments. It takes a good while--up to 48 hours--for the full effect. And it'll mess you up--as you know--after the fact.) (It will also save your life and free you from bondage. So hang in there.)

[MusiciansMallet]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Thanks for both of your responses! Crisis averted w/ the butalbital/barbiturate withdrawal (more below on this)..

Baclofen titration
RT: heh heh... no worries hun! You didn't come across as a "hard a**" to me. I can take constructive criticism & I took no offense. After all, the precise reason I initiated this thread was to get perspectives such as yours & others! But, I definitely understand where you're coming from! The reasons I was just taking it extremely slow is because of my own personal experience w/ overdoing it, it was literally a traumatic experience for me.. literally traumatic. And given the very little info on baclofen use for barbiturates (aside from in RATS; a whole-three-lined paragraph-abstract, reaaaal helpful! uggh)- i am treading unknown territory & just did not want to repeat the traumatic experience or induce some other complication.

With that said; I have been titrating upwards but haven't been as specific on this lately, so here we go:
I have used it everyday (roughly 10 days now i believe? I resumed daily intake I believe 5-6 days after my horrific experience- My memories sort of run-together during that time). & i have found dosing every 4-5 hours is effective. Although I still haven't gone above 5mg per dose yet. But i've moved doses closer together & yesterday I took 30 mg total. And this was with only 1000mg of butalbital, I was fine- aside from insomnia (4-5 hrs of sleep), minor anxiety, & lack of energy. I should have otherwise had slight tremors, ZERO sleep, anxiety, etc etc (include all your typical benzo, barbiturate, alcohol withdrawal symptoms).. Although, I basically spent the day in isolation, no phone calls, very little contact w/ the family.


Butalbital
BUT, crisis averted! Everything went well & this morning I was able to get an emergency short-term refill of my butalbital/fioricet which will last me 3.5 - 5 days (how long the refill lasts depends on how effective the baclofen works in allowing me to stay at lower butalbital doses). BUT, i am going to try and take around 1100-1200mg/day since I was generally ok w/ the 1000mg + 30 mg baclofen yesterday. & in case you're wondering- staying at 1000 mg is absolutely not a safe option. This would be close to a 30% drop in dose in less than 4 days of a previous dose reduction :eeks:! You should only drop 5%, 10% MAXIMUM, every 1-2 weeks w/ barbiturates & benzodiazepines. Especially at my higher doses (i'm at roughly ~4-6x max recommended daily dose in non-tolerant users of butalbital, which is 250mg/day). So I'd risk seizure, & I am more at risk for seizure since I had a suspected seizure during butalbital withdrawal in the past (at the least it was a convulsion-episode; combined w/ tremor between from day 2-6 of cold turkey withdrawal from 1600mg/day; I resumed butalbital on day 6 & all symptoms were resolved). Anyway, UNLESS my reduced butalbital intake causes no-to-little discomfort w/ my upwards titration of baclofen (the last 2 days I have increased by 2.5mg-5mg per day w/ no ill-effects) and my general effects, experiences, & pain relief w/ reduced butalbital intake *WITH* increased BAC intake are similar to my typical, maintenance barbiturate dosage I was on prior to using baclofen.

Anyway, conversely.. even when waking up this morning to get my medicine (& not having ANY butalbital for 16 hours, but dosing baclofen every 4 hours) i could still think somewhat clearly.. no noticeable physical withdrawal, only slight anxiety. I cannot rationally attribute this lack-of-w/d-symptoms to ANYTHING but the baclofen. I otherwise would've had a noticeable tremor, pupil dilation, high BPM & blood pressure at the very least- but all of this generally in check. But, mentally/psychologically, I was still very uncomfortable in public; withdrawal wasn't completely resolved (perhaps higher BAC doses needed w/ continued butalbital tapering using a SAFE regimen...)


Questions...
So, its definitely working. BUT, I am curious, what maintenance doses are you ladies (and guys) on, in regards to baclofen? I'm just, sort of worried about being on huge amounts of it & going through withdrawal from baclofen if something happens w/ my vendor or Rx! Although, for the time being, the barbiturates are more pressing of an issue (both financially-wise & personally-wise), i am definitely continuing the baclofen; & the titration upwards.


I will continue the update!
~Matt

[MusiciansMallet]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

^^^(Please read the above first)
Quick side note, baclofen has this novel effect in increasing the effects of my suboxone (buprenorphine+naloxone, i take 4mg/day for past opiate abuse; heroin i have 5 yrs clean, though!)... YET, it decreases my need or want to dose; I highly highly suspect baclofen has some other mechanism going on with addiction therapy... unless there is an unknown neurological interaction between GABA-b receptor-agonists (like baclofen) & decreased likelihood of dependency, tolerance, & increased self-intake. Certainly studies w/ nicotine & cocaine (although, mostly in rats... aside from the newer studies underway) indicate there may be some interaction there- but, GABA-b receptor agonist drugs are very VERY poorly understood (no huge money-making drugs out there of course! Unlike GABA-a agonists- take your pick: Lunesta, Ambien, benzos)... & if this anti-addiction effect is purely GABA-b related, one would assume it would only apply to GABAergic drugs (like alcohol, benzos, barbiturates) & NOT opiates or stimulants! But again, GABA-b is poorly understood.

Anyway, this was just a side note & irrelevant to the topic at hand generally speaking, I just thought it was worth mentioning.. i am more concerned w/ feedback & discussion on my post above!

[Ne/Neva Eva]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

I got up to 320mg, and maintain around 140mg.

It may help to read the thread Otter started--the translation of the titration guidelines.

I hope that you can manage the whole titration down and titration up thing. It's a slippery slope on both counts! Take good care and keep it up!

I don't think there's any question that the effect of, and your relationship to, suboxone will be affected by the baclofen as well, so I'd keep a close eye on that! I did see something I meant to bookmark about opiod recovery and baclofen, and I can't for the life of me remember where. It's in here somewhere--maybe a google search of MWO, bac and opiod will help? I'll try to remember, or look it up, in the meantime.

[MusiciansMallet]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Thanks! Found it & read it... (about dosing regimen)

Prescribing Guide - Baclofen UK World Forum

Oh I have no doubt its having a positive effect on my suboxone. Even on 35 mg (as of yesterday) I am waking up for the first in the mornings with energy.. I don't need to even dose my suboxone before becoming active- i catch myself 'yawning' (side effect from minor opioid withdrawal) to gauge when I need to dose... rather than how i "feel." I can smoke my first cigarette *before* dosing my morning suboxone (unheard of). Although, to completely wean off of this i'm sure i'll have to take other precautions (not really my intention.. but if it helps? i'd gladly do it).

...things probably wont be so hunky dory as i titrate upwards though (as in, baclofen side effects). I am responding well! I just wish things were more stable w/ my income so these hiccups don't keep occurring in my medications (butalbital.. and now, hopefully, no problems w/ baclofen)