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**joethelion** · June 19, 2012, 02:59 PM

High Dose Bac Not Neat And Easy

I have the same positives (at 60mg these days). The only unbearable side effect for me has been puking all day long (awful nausea even into the 2nd day) after a heavy drinking day. All else has been quite bearable until now.

**COSGringo** · June 19, 2012, 07:30 PM

High Dose Bac Not Neat And Easy

I can understand the SE's. I had a lot. One time, enough for me to go to the E.R.
Dr L does not believe us when we tell him all the SE's but they are very real sadly.
Mine have mellowed out a lot
I hit my switch at 230 and I am now at 220.
Drinking heavy makes the SE's much worse.

**BetterAndBetter** · June 19, 2012, 08:05 PM

High Dose Bac Not Neat And Easy

I feel like I'm spinning on a merry-go-round. Almost constantly a dizzy feeling. It's not like a mild tummy-ache or anything. I wouldn't say anything if Baclofen wasn't very disruptive to my life in a negative way. It may work for some, but for me it sorta sucks. Drinking on it... I agree... just makes it worse. Gringo... did you have some time to kill while you did the Baclofen "therapy"? Were you working or going to school? If so, you have my great respect. I have a job that isn't that complex, but being on Bac... at higher doses is too much for me. I feel like a wuss, but here I am in America, without a physician to oversee this crap. I just can't do it.

**COSGringo** · June 20, 2012, 06:41 AM

High Dose Bac Not Neat And Easy

I understand the frustration. I still get a little dizzy sometimes. My wife thinks I've been drinking or taking something and I just get mad. She still does not trust me or think it works but I understand that since it was years of problems.
It was very disruptive for me at times. Very. I did and still work on baclofen. I handle #'s for one of the largest if not the largest IT companies out there. Billions of dollars of reporting, analyzing, planning, etc.
However, I can work from home. If I had to take a nap I could work around it because I was probably working at 2 am that day anyways.
You can do it but it's hard and I completely understand. I was so sick at times but I hung in there as I really wanted to make this work and I saw it did for enough people on this forum.
I would say titrate slowly maybe 10 mg every 5 days or so. Less if you are having problems. Take the xanax or valium in small doses. If you wake up at 2 am take a small dose then and you can probably sleep again for a while without feeling medicated. I never felt that way since the baclofen was so much more powerful.
I think NE went through a lot of this and well a lot of other folks did too. Some are lucky and don't and I can't wrap my hands around that but good for them!
I am much better now, I am at 220 and it works. I still deal with SE's but not like I was. I can manage them now. If could get rid of 3 weeks of gout that would be life changing for me right now.

I am in America, too. I have not been to my regular doc in well over a year now because of the baclofen but I will go soon and present how it has worked. If he goes for it great, else I will do whatever I have to in keeping my baclofen around. There are a lot of places to get that and well things you might need. I don't want to get into that on a public forum though.
Hang in there is all I can say but I understand. I was going to get to 300 and if that did not work reevaluate things.
I don't think I could have done the high dose in an office environment. Maybe but I am not sure.

**Ne/Neva Eva** · June 20, 2012, 07:49 AM

High Dose Bac Not Neat And Easy

I'm short on time, so briefly:

It's not wussy to not tolerate the SEs from bac. It IS a matter of management of them if you decide to go that route. It's just, as you say, not easy. But I have yet to find an easy way to get sober. And I have never found a way to be sober--and happy--before HDB.

Which is not to say that LDB doesn't offer some viable options. Most people in treatment settings don't get up to the numbers that I did and many of us do. Or if they do, it's with a doctor's support and medication management of the SEs.

I think COS made some good points, but I would suggest (STRONGLY) that taking a short to mid-length acting benzo on an as-needed basis will not be very effective. However, taking it as though it was medicine (and not a crutch, a handicap, a short cut) on a regular basis with your eye towards the goal of freedom from addiction is a good solution.
I've suggested it to almost everyone who struggles with HDB. The ones who take the xanax regularly feel better and continue on. The ones that don't...

All that said, there are plenty of suggestions and alternatives to HDB. And just because you couldn't go higher from where you were, doesn't mean you can't go higher at some point. I think long term baclofen use is more conducive to HDB. I've got no science to back this up, just anecdotal evidence.

I will also add that for those who try HDB, and then go dramatically down and then off, there seems to be a honeymoon period when they don't want to drink excessively, but it wears off. I have seen this countless times.

Basically, I think taking bac is more effective than not taking bac. Taking more bac is more effective. And getting to the switch can be brutal, but I will be eternally grateful that I did it. (I worked, but barely. And I was able to nap. And my SEs were excruciating. But it was 4 months. If I had to do it over again, I'd manage my SEs better, or take more, more quickly and to hell with everything else. :H)

And don't forget, that if you're committed to abstinence, and actually abstain, everything (in life!) is much easier. I didn't do it that way, but...

**bleep** · June 20, 2012, 09:44 AM

High Dose Bac Not Neat And Easy

Something that hasn't been discussed (that I've seen) is a really slow titration. What about titrating up 5mg's every 2 weeks, or something like that? I'm guessing that won't bring on SE's, and will eventually allow you to get to high number SE free?

Baclofen seems to have weird effects that belie it's short half-life, so maybe the same weird principle will function here?

**COSGringo** · June 20, 2012, 09:48 AM

High Dose Bac Not Neat And Easy

I think whatever you are comfortable with is what works.
20mg per week is the norm. I switched to 10mg about every 5 days which was better for me until I got sick at 260.
It should not be a race. I think it could be a good idea to go even slower but I believe most folks like to see results quickly. I see some folks gobbling it down like Pez. I can't believe that's good but if you can get away with it great.

**BetterAndBetter** · June 21, 2012, 12:49 PM

High Dose Bac Not Neat And Easy

Thanks SO MUCH, guys, for your thoughtful replies! I'm very touched, right now. I'm sure I'll have other questions, but I'm more than appreciative. I'm not "skid row" at this point or anything... I just want this monkey off of my back and I see some daylight. You guys are great. I still smoke the ganja, but it's never been any problem for me, so I have a few sources for other things I might need. I will now re-read what you've said and please don't hesitate or hold back with the advice. I'm a stable cat just wanting to get more stable.

And any references to the benzo thing would really be appreciated. Hadn't heard about that. I've never done anything stronger than Klonopin and it's not an addiction issue for me, so feel free to PM me if that's better. Thanks. Does it help with dizziness and nausea? And it sounds like something to take daily... at what dose? Seriously, don't put yourself at anything that feels risky in sharing this info. You can refer me to other threads or whatever.

**krill** · June 21, 2012, 07:09 PM

High Dose Bac Not Neat And Easy

I concur that baclofen is not a "cure all" or an easy drug to take--especially in the mega-doses talked about on this web site (50-270 mg/day). I took GHB (when one could order it on the 'net) back in the day, and I have no doubt that baclofen belongs to the GHB family of drugs. I have been taking baclofen since June 10th of 2012 (11 days as of June 21st) and I can reliably say that baclofen, at least for me, is clearly a GHB analog, with all the side effects that entails: significant dizziness, drowsiness (mainly when sitting still and doing nothing), a level of "buzz" that makes this a difficult drug to take in the dosages talked about on this website. I have just started to notice that if I take 50mg per day (all I can manage right now and still live a relatively normal life as of 6-21-2012), I seem (and I am skeptical at this point) , to have a choice at 5:00 pm of drinking or not, but too much of that seems to be more a function of the fact that I am so buzzed and tired by baclofen (12 mg 4X per day) that I just don't particularly feel like drinking (but too often do anyway, since as someone said on this site (to paraphrase), "that's what I do at 5 pm, I drink." It's a habit. And a habit is a very strong thing indeed. So. I am looking into low dose (30 mg per day as t.i.d.) baclofen in conjunction with 25 mg of topiramine (as 2X 2.15 mg/day). I hope that combo will reduce the bac. side effects and yet, perhaps add the topiramine's positive effects of decreased desire to drink that I experienced at 125-150 mg of top. We'll see it polypharmacy makes sense with addiction...

**Ne/Neva Eva** · June 21, 2012, 08:41 PM

High Dose Bac Not Neat And Easy

krill;1338623 wrote: I concur that baclofen is not a "cure all" or an easy drug to take--especially in the mega-doses talked about on this web site (50-270 mg/day). I took GHB (when one could order it on the 'net) back in the day, and I have no doubt that baclofen belongs to the GHB family of drugs. I have been taking baclofen since June 10th of 2012 (11 days as of June 21st) and I can reliably say that baclofen, at least for me, is clearly a GHB analog, with all the side effects that entails: significant dizziness, drowsiness (mainly when sitting still and doing nothing), a level of "buzz" that makes this a difficult drug to take in the dosages talked about on this website. I have just started to notice that if I take 50mg per day (all I can manage right now and still live a relatively normal life as of 6-21-2012), I seem (and I am skeptical at this point) , to have a choice at 5:00 pm of drinking or not, but too much of that seems to be more a function of the fact that I am so buzzed and tired by baclofen (12 mg 4X per day) that I just don't particularly feel like drinking (but too often do anyway, since as someone said on this site (to paraphrase), "that's what I do at 5 pm, I drink." It's a habit. And a habit is a very strong thing indeed. So. I am looking into low dose (30 mg per day as t.i.d.) baclofen in conjunction with 25 mg of topiramine (as 2X 2.15 mg/day). I hope that combo will reduce the bac. side effects and yet, perhaps add the topiramine's positive effects of decreased desire to drink that I experienced at 125-150 mg of top. We'll see it polypharmacy makes sense with addiction...

Dude. 11 days and 50mg of baclofen? I'm surprised you can see the computer screen.

It'll mess you up if you take too much of it. But it's not much fun. There is a lot of information around here about how to take it effectively in order to achieve the goal. And lots of support, too.

**MusiciansMallet** · June 21, 2012, 09:42 PM

High Dose Bac Not Neat And Easy

I had similar experiences (although, not for treatment for alcoholism, but for barbiturate dependency)--dosed 200 mg over 48 hours upon my doctor's advice. The first day was fine. The next day though? Different story. A stoned-type of feeling, less intake of butalbital (the barbiturate & GABA-A agonist--like alcohol--i am trying to stop taking or reduce my intake of)... but the next 2 days? Non-stop vomiting, soup-poop (as you had), nausea, insomnia, & an odd combination of anxiety relief combined w/ INCREASED & severe anxiety around people (although may have been due to my lack of barbiturate intake b/c i'd be puking it up! ...causing precipitated withdrawal).

With that said, after the side effects resided, i've resumed baclofen at very lower doses (currently titrated up from 10mg/night to 20mg a day w/in the past 4 days). I was a pharmacology major & am fairly well versed in many drugs & their neuropharmacological action... but w/ baclofen this is the extent of my experience; and the knowledge on its pharmacodynamics is sparse at best! ..Usually limited to Dr. A & Dr. L's anecdotal experiences; & similar anecdotal evidence among participants in forums like these.

Although even at low doses, for me it has reduced my intake w/ little SE & w/ little-to-no barbiturate abstinence symptoms/syndrome; but I am at very low doses, currently & not using it for alcohol. But I just cannot understand why there are such odd effects w/ baclofen--especially its lack of cross-tolerance w/ GABA-A agonists (like alcohol, benzos, barbiturates) & other odd effects like insomnia--whereas other GABA-B agonists like GHB & GVL are nearly identical to GABA-A agonists and have some measure of cross tolerance!

But... i'll stop here, b/c i'm new to baclofen. I just suspect some sort of unknown mechanism w/ baclofen yet not discovered by the medical community... and probably will never be discovered since it is an older drug... it can't be patented.. and pharmaceutical companies can't make butt-loads of cash off of exploiting poor patients desperately seeking just any sort of relief or help, and have no other alternative! No, instead, PHRMA & the clients it represents (here in the US) patent NEW drugs at absurd costs to patients- such as suboxone for opiate addicts (which I currently also take); & acamprosate or the quite ridiculous drug naltrexone (at least in my mind)!!

OK.. OK.. i'm getting off my soapbox

:soapbox:

**MusiciansMallet** · June 21, 2012, 09:46 PM

High Dose Bac Not Neat And Easy

^^^
Krill:
Although it's five pages long, see my other thread in this forum if you're interested in reading similar effects & many responses by other, senior members! Here is the link:
https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ons-65854.html

Although, as i said above, my use was in response to a different GABA-A agonist, butalbital (a barbiturate medication, usually marketed as fioricet in the US), not alcohol. But, i see this distinction as somewhat arbitrary. it's like claiming diacetylmorphine (heroin) or morphine addiction is completely different than dependency/addiction upon synthetic opioids like oxycodone or fentanyl (the latter of which being stronger than heroin & more addictive than heroin). Well- NO, there isn't much difference in this example; they create the same withdrawal symptoms, albeit w/ subtle differences. BUT, w/ that said, the GABA receptor complex is much more complicated than the OPIOID receptor complex... & GABA-A receptor complex alone has many more subunits than mu-opioid receptors. But still, the distinction is very similar.

And Neva.. given alcohol's highly unselective GABAergic effects; there is most likely some spill over effect w/ baclofen, even though its a GABA-B agonist; technically completely separate (and binding at different sites than...) GABA-A agonists like alcohol in typical doses.

But, the OPer said he/she is still drinking heavily. So this may contribute to the ability to still see the computer straight, heh. But, I agree, at least w/ my dependency--which isn't upon alcohol, but a different GABA-A agonist as i explained above--i'd be going back & forth between a "floating"-stoned type feeling (only way I can explain it) & vomiting every 3-4 hours w/ physiological effects somewhat akin to physical withdrawal from any GABA-A agonist. YUK!

**BetterAndBetter** · June 21, 2012, 10:16 PM

High Dose Bac Not Neat And Easy

MusiciansMallet;1338684 wrote: ^^^
Krill:
Although it's five pages long, see my other thread in this forum if you're interested in reading similar effects & many responses by other, senior members! Here is the link:
https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ons-65854.html

Although, as i said above, my use was in response to a different GABA-A agonist, butalbital (a barbiturate medication, usually marketed as fioricet in the US), not alcohol. But, i see this distinction as somewhat arbitrary. it's like claiming diacetylmorphine (heroin) or morphine addiction is completely different than dependency/addiction upon synthetic opioids like oxycodone or fentanyl (the latter of which being stronger than heroin & more addictive than heroin). Well- NO, there isn't much difference in this example; they create the same withdrawal symptoms, albeit w/ subtle differences. BUT, w/ that said, the GABA receptor complex is much more complicated than the OPIOID receptor complex... & GABA-A receptor complex alone has many more subunits than mu-opioid receptors. But still, the distinction is very similar.

And Neva.. given alcohol's highly unselective GABAergic effects; there is most likely some spill over effect w/ baclofen, even though its a GABA-B agonist; technically completely separate (and binding at different sites than...) GABA-A agonists like alcohol in typical doses.

But, the OPer said he/she is still drinking heavily. So this may contribute to the ability to still see the computer straight, heh. But, I agree, at least w/ my dependency--which isn't upon alcohol, but a different GABA-A agonist as i explained above--i'd be going back & forth between a "floating"-stoned type feeling (only way I can explain it) & vomiting every 3-4 hours w/ physiological effects somewhat akin to physical withdrawal from any GABA-A agonist. YUK!

When I can see the computer screen clearly again.... LOL... I will reply with something that includes my experiences with GHB. Definitely similar. The "floating" stoned type feeling is spot on for me. I LOVED GHB, but not that "dizzy" feeling. Yuck, indeed! Anyway... I don't have enough science behind me to understand everything you are saying, but from an experiential standpoint I think we're on the same page. Thanks.

**Ne/Neva Eva** · June 22, 2012, 04:55 AM

High Dose Bac Not Neat And Easy

MusiciansMallet;1338684 wrote: ^^^

Although, as i said above, my use was in response to a different GABA-A agonist, butalbital (a barbiturate medication, usually marketed as fioricet in the US), not alcohol. But, i see this distinction as somewhat arbitrary. it's like claiming diacetylmorphine (heroin) or morphine addiction is completely different than dependency/addiction upon synthetic opioids like oxycodone or fentanyl (the latter of which being stronger than heroin & more addictive than heroin). Well- NO, there isn't much difference in this example; they create the same withdrawal symptoms, albeit w/ subtle differences. BUT, w/ that said, the GABA receptor complex is much more complicated than the OPIOID receptor complex... & GABA-A receptor complex alone has many more subunits than mu-opioid receptors. But still, the distinction is very similar.

And Neva.. given alcohol's highly unselective GABAergic effects; there is most likely some spill over effect w/ baclofen, even though its a GABA-B agonist; technically completely separate (and binding at different sites than...) GABA-A agonists like alcohol in typical doses.

huh??? :H

but to the points in your previous post, I agree and respectfully disagree. We don't know how/why/what bac does that the others don't (or maybe they do and bac doesn't.) And there isn't a financial incentive to figure it out (maybe) but, a BIG but! There are people that are looking into it in order to come up with something that they can actually make money from. (Not a bad thing, just expensive. They'll have 'incentive' programs, I'm sure. :H)
In the meantime, individual practitioners and even some traditional rehabs are getting on board. Albeit with desperate cases, it seems to me, but still. And the stuff works. And it's cheap. So even indigent-type patients can get it. Hell, they're most likely to get it so far anyway.
Here's hoping!

BandB, :H:H Hope you can focus soon.
Krill, I hope you know I was being a bit facetious. So much of this is funny...in retrospect. It's not so funny when it's in the moment, though. It used to hurt my feelings a lot when people ribbed me about what I was going through. (Which was pretty hellish.)
Did you read the thread started by Greg about the Aussie doc who is using an antiseizure med and baclofen? It's likely either topiramate or gabapentin. (but that's just guessing based on Greg's best guess...) Anyway, it sounds like a winning combination. BUT slow and steady is a good idea, too. Generally starting from 5mg to 30mg is what's common, and adding between 10mg and 20mg per week...It took me more than a month to get to 50mg! And the SEs at the lower doses were much worse for me than at the higher doses. Until I got to the way-high doses, which...ugh.
Hang in there.

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