Update on my Baclofen progress

[ignominious]

About 6 months ago I started drinking regularly again, not massive quantities but it became a need to do at 5.30pm. I had reduced my dose to 30mg a day, I started noticing adverts for alcohol at about 50mg so I should have been forewarned!

Previously when I started drinking again I had increased my dose by about 50mg and stopped. So this time I wasn't overly concerned......I increased my dose slowly but have still not stopped drinking although I'm at 220mg.

So that's where I am. I had hoped to be able to be able to report positive news. Although I think I will hit my switch again, I also hope that I don't have to go much higher or longer as I find the SEs at this level rather uncomfortable.

[RedThread12]

Update on my Baclofen progress

Hey, Ig!

Thanks SO much for this. A couple of recent posts sent me back-in-time to read from a couple of years ago. I just told Ne that I missed the "olden" days . . . and I guess that just means the days when bac was so new and so many of us were posting so much and, by and large, coming out successful (terrifying stories, included!), with bac.

Very interesting information - the almost full decrease of bac, along with renewed consistent drinking, taking your story to this chapter. May I ask how much you're drinking, just for the "record?" My guess is that it's not "bac" to pre-bac days???? But obviously, enough to get your attention.

Your current experience is of great interest to me, personally, as well. I never had to take massive amounts of bac to shut off the craving for alcohol, but I've also never reduced my dosage below 90 mg/day. And I did that when I was in a long meditation course, which profoundly mitigates anxiety. As soon as I left the course, I noticed, not a craving to drink, but amplified physical sensations of anxiety. So I went back up to 120 mg/day, which is what I consider my minimal "maintenance" dose. I've had AF months and weeks through my entire bac-life (is that like a half-life, or something), but never stressed a lot about being completely AF. I did that for more than a decade, before I ever discovered what an alcoholic I am.

What I do pay attention to is whether or not alcohol begins to become "routine," again. Daily wine has crept back in a couple of times over the years. So far, I've upped my dose a bit, just said "no," and kept a pretty even keel. But your post, and the way my own awareness has been traveling lately, kind of encourages me toward abstinence, again some more. A part of me is keenly aware of not "over-riding" baclofen. I suppose that's part of the reason I've kept my daily dose fairly high.

Yes, I totally trust that you'll find "indifference" again. And now you have some experience with life without alcohol at the center that you didn't have during the first rodeo. I think my many years of not drinking were a huge contribution to the ease I've had with baclofen. All the best to you. Look forward to reading THIS chapter, too!! :l

[ignominious]

Update on my Baclofen progress

Hi Red
Its 5 o'clock in the morning and I've given up trying to go back to sleep. Ha ha! Nice to hear your voice. Yeah, Bac was newer back then but it is still a new treatment with little information about long term effects.

I'm drinking 3 bottles of 640ml 5% beer. On occasions I have had 4 bottles or added some whiskey, which at my present dose, sends me over the top. Sometimes accompanied by lack of bladder control at night. I've only had one experience of getting fighting aggressive but that is once too many.

The habit part to drinking is a strong factor. Yesterday I broke my routine, basically stayed at home all day, and hardly gave drinking a second thought. I've done this before but with my renewed fitness (after one night AF) have craved a drink more than ever the next evening.

I don't like Baclofen and I don't like being a drinker. I shall be erring on the side of permanent abstinence this time around. I also believe that I would have had more chance if I had been able to get some psychiatric help with my 'issues' when I got sober.

[jaddyday]

Update on my Baclofen progress

Hi Ig,

Its interesting to read your experience as I'm just at the start of the Bac journey. I've been on it for about seven weeks now and am on 210mg/day. The craving reduction was instant and pretty amazing - I just don't think about it all the time anymore. Over that time I have drunk on just three occasions (I used to drink five or six days a week). I've been able to do that before but it has always been an immense struggle. However, it hasn't yet turned me into a 'normal drinker' - I still binge excessively when I do drink. That said, I'm pretty elated by its effects so far!

Can I ask how much you were drinking before Bac? Three beers a day seems pretty manageable to me. In terms of psychiatric help, you're spot on. I've had years of theropy and have now dealt with my 'issues' and it has also been established that I don't have any mood disorders as many of us do. I think it is important to remember that whilst Bac seems to be very effective in treating the neurological root of the illness, the vast majority of us have underlying emotional issues and/or mood disorders. I believe that appropriate medication has the potential to make recovery possible and sustainable for the majority of addicts but it should never be seen as a 'magic bullet' but as an adjunct to a full program of support tailored to the individual. IMHO of course.

[Greg]

Update on my Baclofen progress

I certainly agree with what you say Jaddyday, about needing to make other changes in addition to taking medication.

Hi Ig, not sure if you would remember me, but I have been around here for 2-3 years now I think. I know it can be a very hard habit to break, and I sometimes crave alcohol at night during periods of abstinence. When not drinking, I sometimes even think about it during the day, simply because I know I am not drinking the coming night.

I think that any improvement with alcoholism is worthwhile. I am not on high dose bac due to getting severe insomnia from it, so can't give much advice about the drug itself. I have been using Antabuse and low-dose Valium at present. I also use low dose bac when needed, as it helps with anxiety.

By the way, while I have had periods alcohol free, I have also gone back up to 17 standard drinks or so when drinking (at times I didn't use Antabuse of course!!), so I'm no saint. I'm currently hoping a combination of lowish-dose baclofen and an anticonvulsant may block cravings, which is claimed to happen (in many patients) by a hospital here in Australia, but my doctor has to wait 3 more weeks to get advice back from them about it....apparently hundreds of people have been asking them about it.

[bleep]

Update on my Baclofen progress

Ig, you ray of sunshine, good to hear from you!

Sorry to hear that things have derailed somewhat. Like you say though, I'm sure indifference is not far off. Nothing really helpful to add that you won't already know, just wanted to say hi.

[StuckinLA]

Update on my Baclofen progress

Thanks so much for posting, Ig. As someone who's trying to be AF at the moment, but without abstinence as my long term ideal outcome, I'll be following your update with great interest (&, of course, wishing you the best!).

[ignominious]

Update on my Baclofen progress

Read a recent thread by Bleep which pushed me to write my ongoing experiences. Good to see you too.

Jaddaday - I used to drink about 5 bottles of whiskey a week with the occasional 2 bottle binge. Right from the start my drinking came under control but hitting the switch was a revelation/miracle to me.

Greg, of course I remember you. Hope your new combination works for you. I tend to think that at doses where the SEs become almost intolerable is when Bac does its best work!

At doses over 200 for me the SEs never abate, subside a bit between doses but don't go away. I'm in a constant Bac fog and am prone to irrational decisions. I'm trying to keep away from my business but there are things that only I can sort out. Not tenable in the long term! Adds to my stress!

Yesterday I didn't want to drink all day, I couldn't stand the thought of imbibing fizzy beer. At 5.30 I had purchased a half bottle of whiskey. The first sip made me wince but the rest slipped down very easily and I ended up drinking more from a friend's bottle.

Thanks for your interest LA. I wish I had the confidence to predict the future. I read with concern
https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ble-66770.html
Particularly: "Dr Levin says that Ameisen relapsed from titrating down and had to go back up to a really high dose and stay there. This seems inconsistent with everything I've read so I"m just left with a bunch of question marks hanging over my head.

[Greg]

Update on my Baclofen progress

ignominious;1346429 wrote: Greg, of course I remember you. Hope your new combination works for you. I tend to think that at doses where the SEs become almost intolerable is when Bac does its best work!

At doses over 200 for me the SEs never abate, subside a bit between doses but don't go away. I'm in a constant Bac fog and am prone to irrational decisions. I'm trying to keep away from my business but there are things that only I can sort out. Not tenable in the long term! Adds to my stress!

I have been waiting forever, it feels like, to get the details of this new treatment combination, as the hospital in Melbourne will only answer doctors' emails, not those from members of the public.

If it doesn't work out for some reason, all I have left is to try high dose baclofen again and just "suck it up" if I can't sleep properly and get other side effects again. The insomnia is really the only thing I can't stand, as it makes my depression and anxiety unbearable, and I cannot function after nights of nearly no sleep. Apart from that, there's only rehab (which I haven't been able to try due to caring for my elderly grandmother) or lifelong AA left for me as a long-term solution. I have tried everything else, over a period of 23 years or so, firstly for depression and then later also for my developing alcoholism. Have been to numerous doctors, counsellors, psychologists, and psychiatrists over that time, and have undergone too many 5-day Valium detoxes to count now (most of them done by myself at home using prescribed Valium, as I am so used to the detox procedure by now...not something I would ever recommend anyone else doing, as it is potentially deadly if withdrawals get out of hand). I even tried large doses of Valium and Xanax (prescribed, not ordered!) as alcohol substitutes, but they could never work long-term due to tolerance (again, not something I recommend anyone else try, as severe addiction to benzos is a real danger for many people).

With my current Antabuse plus low-dose Valium, and some low-dose bac, I am scraping through from day to day, but every day is a harsh battle between the part of me that doesn't want to drink anymore (ever) and the part of me that STILL seems totally obsessed with having a chemical escape from reality (depression, anxiety, loneliness, life in general). It's like having a split personality, even though I don't technically have such a condition. I have even deliberately stopped Antabuse several times already and waited a few days so I could drink again despite the dangers of doing that, and am now in a frightening cycle of relapse-detox-relapse-detox-etc. For anyone reading this who takes Antabuse, please be sure to take it every single day (even if only a quarter or half a tablet), otherwise you could slip into this excuse-making desperate state I have been in.

Anyway, sorry for rambling on so long, I just wanted to point out how desperate I am for this new treatment idea to be revealed to me via my doctor in Sydney who has to wait until July 27 to hear about it himself. Two close friends of mine could also desperately use such a treatment, as they have refused to try baclofen after I told them you need 2-4 times (or more) the approved dosage and that they would have to order it online due to no doctors around here prescribing it at the required dose. These two guys are even worse than myself, and I am basically watching them drink themselves to death without any sense of hope left.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Update on my Baclofen progress

:l, Greg. But I have to add, of course, that LDB taken "as needed" does not work. Period. Taken regularly, it might work completely and without SEs. But taken erratically? I've come to the (personal) conclusion that it makes the whole conundrum worse, especially over the long term. It may just be that this thread is indicative of that fact. (But there are many, many, many that point in that direction.) Stay well and keep fighting!

Hi, Ig. Nice to see you back, and thanks for sharing the information. I'm sorry it's under the circumstances, though. Take good care.

[ignominious]

Update on my Baclofen progress

Greg, I hear you loud and clear. Alcohol addiction is a muthafucka. You seem to have a support network in place; docs, psycs and whatnot. The thing is that they can't help you that much when you are still addicted.

Many years ago when I was into heroin: taking a friend to get his script and he told me that his shrink had said that once you stop your addiction you can then start to grow up. It struck me then and has stuck with me for 30 years. Over the last couple. of mostly alcohol free; years I am coming to see the full reality of that statement - I personally am carry around so much baggage that I seriously should have got over when I was in my teens. I am in many ways completely new to being an adult, its hard to cope with and I long for an escape from my reality. I just don't want that escape to be drug induced any more. Suitable time for my plea for help - Any psychiatrists out there that want to give me a helping hand, please pm me! Sincerly wish you the best with this new treatment and if not then HDB is still waiting.

Hi Ne

[spacebebe01]

Update on my Baclofen progress

I just have to jump in to ask greg why are you still waiting for your doctors approval on this? it has been so long and you a do seem to be feeling so much worse than when you first heard about it. I assume its pretty much given that the meds used are baclofen and topamax and as it states that when used in combination it is at lower doses than when used alone then why is it taking so long just to find out the goddamn protocol. Are all the meds you have taken been prescribed Greg? because I think I would have looked into finding a safe level to try this out for myself if it was me, (I am not a doctor nor do I have medical knowledge). We know that baclofen works, we know that topamax works, we also know that the effects are different for different people as they are with every medication and there is a hell of a lot of other stuff that goes along with it, lifestyle change, diet, supps, excercise, meditation all the stuff I am pretty crap at actually but I know it works.

LDB taken as needed for anxiety, Ive done it myself at times, I thought a few of us had but then thats for short term anxiety relief not anything to do with alcohol. IMO

What I am trying to say is I know its not long now until 27th July but you can still be looking into stuff and doing stuff for yourself in the meantime.

Hi Ig, I dont know if you know me but I did used to see your name around when I first joined.

[ignominious]

Update on my Baclofen progress

Alright Reg! Good to see you. I'm just heading out the door but took a quick look and thought I'd better reply now before it disappears! How are you doing? Is that you in the avatar?

[bleep]

Update on my Baclofen progress

Hey Reg!

Greg, have you tried a really slow titration on baclofen? Really slow, like 5 mg's every 2 weeks? Maybe that can get you into the higher numbers without insomnia? It's something you could think about doing while you keep searching around?

Your persistence deserves success, keep fighting man.

[Greg]

Update on my Baclofen progress

Hi everyone and thanks for your thoughts.

Ig, yes growing up is a huge part of getting over this, and I have lagged behind others my age in terms of emotional and social development. I am still very much a loner and still plagued by depression that does not respond to anything, although I have started on an antidepressant that helped me many years ago. Nightly support via AA is probably going to be vital, even though I have resisted AA for years. Where I live, there is almost no other alternative activity at night, which is the only time I feel compelled to drink. AA is the only night activity here that does not revolve around drinking! I have actually started to attend some meetings again, and have found one or two where I feel more comfortable than usual, although I have never (yet) worked the steps or had a sponsor, which is what you are supposed to do (i.e. not just go to the meetings).

Hi Space, I have not started on baclofen+Topamax because of two reasons...1) I am still not sure Topamax is the anticonvulsant being used, as the hospital told me that this treatment is not a single anticonvulsant...2) I am wary of ordering drugs online due to the strictness of Australian Customs, since it is technically illegal to order a prescription drug when you don't have a prescription for it. This applies to both baclofen and topiramate in this country. I would much rather get this done through my doctor, since there would be no hassles then. An order of baclofen from the former Virtuous Labs was intercepted by Customs, and I am now wary in case my name is on their computer system. Also I am a bit wary of the potential for eyesight risk with Topamax, to be honest.

Bleep, no I haven't tried a very slow bac taper, which is a good idea that I never thought of. I have some bac here still, and can start on this during the 3 week wait for my doctor.

Ne, thanks for your wishes, and yes I know bac does not work for cravings when just taken on and off. I am using it currently for anxiety rather than cravings, hence the "as needed" method. Hopefully I can get a script for at least 75 mg per day from the doctor, which I have found does reduce cravings when taken daily in divided doses.