BAC and Sleep

[flamengo]

Has anyone here had improved sleep from Baclofen instead of the dreaded insomnia?

My meds arrive tomorrow and I'm getting ready to take the plunge. Hoping to get up to 80MG starting from 5 mg.

[MusiciansMallet]

BAC and Sleep

Although I only made it up to 40mg per day; I never experienced insomnia. In fact, I experienced quite the opposite. I've had sleep issues since seven years old as it is, but baclofen included my REM sleep (i.e., quality of sleep)... so I would also wake very rested. Although, I'd wager these effects will change at higher doses.

GABA-b agonists like baclofen (and also like GHB) are very strong sedatives. Although, the mechanics of the "switch" using HDB I suspect is from some different neurological effect than acting as a GABA-b agonist, something not yet known to modern science. Baclofen severely reduced my nicotine (and reduced by intake of suboxone--a maintenance drug for opiate addicts, somewhat like methadone but it doesn't get you high--which i could NEVER do before).

Anyway, this whole insomnia mechanism I'm sure is related to the above mechanisms. I suppose you'll just have to wait for feedback. (btw, on my first day; when i took too much.. About 200mg over 2 days; I literally slept nonstop for about 16 hours--but again, that's just me).

[flamengo]

BAC and Sleep

Thank yoU!

Yeah, I suffer from PTSD and have incredible hyper arousal. I just actually got a response from doctor from Dr Phillips who did a clinical trial with Blacofen and had tremendous results with 12 week intensive treatment. I have already read about people with PTSD whom Blacofen completely removed their startle response. I actually e-mailed a member on here who uses it for PTSD but she only had one post so I'm sure she won't ever see my post let alone respond.

I feel like my sleep needs the most help and am told that for PTSD 80mg a day is the optimum dose. My pills arrive tomorrow! Excited but scared at the same time.

[AmyC]

BAC and Sleep

Hi Flamengo and welcome!!! I am currently up to 100mg of Bac and I still sleep like a baby except for occasionally waking up to use the bathroom. From what Ive read the insomnia will start to happen as the dosage increased but that dosage is different for everyone. l Hopefully I will be reaching my "switch" dose soon before I hit the insomnia stage. Dont forget to up date your progress so we know how you are doing.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

BAC and Sleep

East Coast Good Morning, Flamengo!

Ya' know, I assume that insomnia is a patented side effect of baclofen...But I don't KNOW that to be true for people who are using it for reasons other than addiction. And I don't know it to be absolutely true for people who are taking less than handfuls-of-it.

There are many, many people who report that baclofen helps their sleep, particularly in the low doses. Which brings me to another point...

Low is all relative! The FDA says 80mg is the max. I wonder if that's why you heard that as the target for the treatment of PTSD? Which leads me to some () questions...

Where did you hear about this? Who is Dr. Phillips? (I couldn't find any information online with just a cursory search, but I haven't used any of the "real" database searches.) What was involved in his clinical trial? Just the medication or was it with behavioral therapy of some sort? Were the patients in house or did they get to sleep at home? How did you find out about him?
Is there a protocol of which you are aware, or are you using MWO as your primary source for information?

While MWO is a really great place for information, and has a lot of unique and valuable resources (people!) we are all dependent on alcohol here. (There are a couple of exceptions of people who are dependent on different drugs.) Some of it will translate, but alcohol is a potent thing--it affects just about everything in lots of different ways. For instance there is debate about whether we have these symptoms, the ones you are looking to alleviate, because of alcohol itself. And if one follows that argument you would think that removing the alcohol would remove the symptoms. So perhaps the alleviation of our anxiety, panic, discomfort, etc has as much to do with removing the alcohol as it does with baclofen... I don't happen to think this is the case, but there are people with A LOT more education and understanding than I have who make this point extremely persuasively. With all of the science and research and big words that I love so much.

And here's the other thing that is really important to note about MWO: The information must be weighed. One of the tools you can use is to click on the person's name up there in the left corner and read all of their previous posts. If they don't have a lot of posts, then hmmmm I would be very curious/cautious about what they're offering up as truth/fact. Personal experience is one thing, but don't let your excitement bite you in the toe.

Don't get me wrong. I'm excited for you! And eager to hear about what the results are. But I haven't looked into any of this and I'd very much like to know more. (As you know from our previous exchanges on other threads, I think you might be on to something. But I have been understandably accused of being a wee bit over-enthusiastic about the miracle of this little pill. )

On a completely different note!
The startle response...I was probably taking an awful lot of it when that kicked in. The lower doses (

[Ne/Neva Eva]

BAC and Sleep

Found a study when I was looking for stuff about PTSD. At first it may seem like it's irrelevant, but hidden deep in the discussion was a little tidbit that you may find useful. I've put in bold the part I think is relevant.

Extinction of a previously established memory can occur when a memory is recalled (which makes the memory labile and sensitive to disruption) but not successfully reconsolidated (Bevilaqua et al., 2008; McGaugh, 2000; Taylor et al., 2009; Tronson and Taylor, 2007). Inhibiting reconsolidation as a practical means to reduce cue-induced cocaine seeking has been successfully demonstrated (Lee et al., 2005; Lee et al., 2006). GABAB receptor-induced decrease in glutamatergic neurotransmission (Harte and O'Connor, 2005; Lei and McBain, 2003; Porter and Nieves, 2004; Yamada et al., 1999) likely blunts memory reconsolidation, as administration of an NMDA receptor antagonist inhibits reconsolidation of cocaine-induced CPP memory (Brown et al., 2008; Itzhak, 2008). No effect on memory extinction has been observed with dopamine antagonism (Yim et al., 2009) however, such antagonism has been reported to facilitate the extinction of conditioned fear (an effect that may be attributed to reconsolidation) (Ponnusamy et al., 2005). In the current protocol, we cannot determine if baclofen is enhancing extinction learning or inhibiting memory re-consolidation, an issue made more difficult by the fact that these processes have many overlapping mechanisms (Alberini, 2005), these avenues need further exploration to determine how baclofen is facilitating the extinction of Meth-induced CPP.

From this: Baclofen facilitates the extinction of methamphetamine-induced conditioned place preference in rats
Dopamine antagonism has been shown to reduce (extinguish??) conditioned fear...From a study done by this guy: Ponnusamy et al., 2005. Which is probably also on rats, but rats are what got the whole ball rolling with baclofen.

So. Perhaps that's an avenue to explore too. Because we are pretty sure that we aren't sure about much when it comes to how bac works related to that!

[Sprat]

BAC and Sleep

I'm on about 240 mg and I sleep great. Most nights I fall asleep quickly and enjoy 7 or 8 hours peacefully. I lay down with an audio book and have to set the off timer to 15 minutes or I'll snooze through a whole chapter. Seems rare and I am thankful. I couldn't handle the sleeplessness. I don't know why I'm lucky. I get a lot of exercise but seems many people on here do too.

[flamengo]

BAC and Sleep

Morning from West Coast!

Thanks for the replies.

NE, Dr. Philip Thomas. Which after I have read up on this board doesnt seem to be a very liked person. But the 80mg came from this study.

http://www.theannals.com/content/37/9/1177.short

The issue right now is that my doctor doesn't want to prescribe the medication. I'm currently taking Remeron at night and a beta blocker 4 times daily. My plan was to start the baclofen and then slowly get off the rest of the medication. I was thinking that perhaps the baclofen could allow for me to get off remeron and then beta blocker. I read up and so far haven't found anything that would tell me that using these 3 short term would be a bad thing.

The addtional info I got on Baclofen came from a site called carrots of hope. They are a non-profit site that help people deal with PTSD. I actually spoke to the main person running the show there and that is how I ended up on here. She referenced Dr. Olivers book and article, even discussed baclofens ability to allow the prefrontal cortex to make decisions before the body is flooded with stress hormones.

I already have my baclofen. I bought 10 mg tablets and want to try it tonight. I was thinking about starting at 5 mg just to see what it will do.

Then work my way up to 20 mg. I woke up today feeling like crap and just want it to stop and feel like the current meds aren't working well.

Here is the info I received:

The dosage for baclofen is low and no one has reported side effects that were unmanageable to me. Most people start at 10-20 mg 3 times a day (every 8 hours). It is most likely to cause fatigue at 20 mg. Listen to your body and talk to your doctor about starting low and raising the dosage later on, if needed. So try 10-15 during the day with 20 mg before bed. That can help you wake up without immediately feeling dread. It is a medicine that has been used as a muscle relaxant for MS patients for decades so it has a long track record. As a muscle relaxant, it last only 8 hours and then is flushed from your system, so taking it timely is important. If you feeling a little grumpy, sad, irritable or generally "out of sorts," ask yourself: "When did I last take my baclofen?" Often you're at the 8 hour mark. Baclofen appears to simply "quiet" the brain - reducing the stimulation and allowing you to think instead of react to a flood of chemicals. There are some interesting videos (associated with other studies - one in particular with a cocaine addiction study) that show brain scans and how, after taking baclofen, the brain activity is reduced dramatically to a more normal pattern.

When you are discussing this with your physician, you may want to talk about "extra" pills. If you are in a stressful situation or about to be in one, it is helpful to have the option to pop an additional 5-10 mgs. The pills are really easy to break into halves as needed. As you know with propranolol, the most important thing is that moment of panic. Unlike propranolol, baclofen also does an exceptional job of maintaining equilibrium throughout the day.

Certainly the side effects of other medications and PTSD are more difficult than the side effects most people will ever have with baclofen. Baclofen works similarly to Klonopin so it generally has the same side effects but it works on the GABA-B receptors which have shown to be non-addictive. Klonopin, Xanax and other "benzo" medications work on the same receptors as alcohol. So, essentially, taking a Klonopin is like having a drink and, over time, you need more and more to produce the same effect until you need more to keep from feeling bad - this is what the experience is for alcoholics with alcohol. Meanwhile, baclofen is used to treat alcoholism. Furthermore, taking a "benzo" can make one feel "drunk" and impaired while baclofen at the right dose simply makes one feel like one's self.

[gratitude]

BAC and Sleep

hey flamengo,
welcome. interesting thread. i hope you keep posting and letting us know how it goes with the bac and it's effects on ptsd. and of course the sleep issues.

[ifulovelife2]

BAC and Sleep

flamengo;1354350 wrote: Has anyone here had improved sleep from Baclofen instead of the dreaded insomnia?

Yep, I can categorically state that I sleep much better on bac. Not at night (that's crappy, I wake up every 2 hours), but during the day I nod off very easily. In fact, I went through a stage of suddenly falling asleep at the most inconvenient moments, such as whilst eating dinner (waking up face down in a Quorn Jalfrezi), walking in my garden (waking up in the rose bush), draining the trouser-snake (waking in a puddle of despair) or during sex (waking with my partner asking if I'd finished yet (actually, I used to get asked that question quite regularly pre-bac anyway)).

Bac is mighty powerful ju-ju and almost always seems to effect peoples' sleep, sometimes for the better but generally not. Soz 'n' all that.

[flamengo]

BAC and Sleep

LOL! I hope I don't start passing out randomly.

I just took 5mg to see what it will do. I have mylan brand from in house pharmacy.

[ifulovelife2]

BAC and Sleep

I've taken all sorts of brands from all sorts of sources and they've always had the same effect on me: same side effects, same not wanting to drink to excess. However, I know plenty of people who have been very sensitive to the different brands (possibly due to fillers?).

That was a kinda useless tidbit of information. Mostly I just wanted to post to keep you company and to ask about your user name. Either you had trouble remembering how to spell 'flamingo' or 'flamenco' or you're from Rio. Which is it? I NEED to know.:H

[flamengo]

BAC and Sleep

You are a clever man! Although my spelling for flamingo could be brought into questions. I'm from Rio and a Flamengo fan. Love me some soccer. I now live in the states, have been here for a little while.


Are you a big soccer fan? I'm assuming yes?

[RedThread12]

BAC and Sleep

Little late to the party (as usual), but Hi, and Welcome!, Flamengo.

Now I'm perplexed. Is it pink birds you love, or dancing? If it's dancing, we non-natives usually spell that with a "c" - flamenco. And if it's birds, flamingo. Either sounds fun to me!

I was prescribed, and taking, seroquel off-label for years before I took baclofen. I never stopped taking that, and I have never had insomnia from baclofen. I had HORRIBLE insomnia for a couple of years before I fell into the wine bottle.

Seroquel (quetiapine fumarate) is an anti-psychotic that is considered to be a powerful drug. It's labeled use is in 100's of milligrams (up to 800/) for schizophrenia. I take 50-100 mg at night, and can rely on 6-8 hours of sleep every night. It works for me. It works for a good friend of mine. It does NOT work for everyone. Many people seem to get severe "hangover" effects from seroquel that are more uncomfortable than not sleeping. I remember reading "zombie," "groggy," "incredibly out of it," etc. I actually believe that those side effects would diminish if one were willing to just keep on. But I can't say for sure because I relished those side effects when I was getting sober without baclofen, and basically slept between AA meetings for a while. It's AN option. I haven't changed my dosage in 6 years (wow, it's been that long!), and I HAVE gone without some nights, and still slept. So again, like baclofen and everything else, we all have different responses. But I'll keep throwing it on the table, because every once in a while it REALLY works.

And, perhaps, I'm truly schizophrenic and THAT'S why it works for me. :H If you want more info or a place to order from, pm me or post. I guess for most people it's a "last" resort, but since I was already taking it, I honestly believe I was spared a lot of the other side effects of baclofen. I never had somnolence or day-time tiredness; I never got any more than enjoyably spacy; I did and do have the vivid dreams, but that's been true to some extent my entire life, and now I'm getting better and better at calling a dream a dream, while it's happening. And THAT is awesome!

This is really, really, just my experience. But it IS my experience. So I am doubly unspeakably grateful: I no longer drink alcohol against my will, and I sleep every night. Blessings abound!

[RedThread12]

BAC and Sleep

Oh, dang. I just re-read the above and now understand the THIRD Flamengo! Pardon my ignorance :new: