Baclofen, AA, NA and anxiety

[gratitude]

Baclofen, AA, NA and anxiety

ne,
i agree with everything you've said here except the anxiety is the addiction. not sure what you mean by this? can you explain? grat.

[peterdh]

Baclofen, AA, NA and anxiety

My View

What i can tell from my experience with addiction, being addicted to different kinds of drugs for 16 years, and 3 years clean now. And what i can tell from my experience with Baclofen, (during those 16 years, extensive treatment, 6+ clinics, counseling, 12 step, na / aa / ..a, etc) and having started Baclofen 3 years ago (no coincidence ) :

One thing addicts have in common is that there is a disbalance between two parts of the brain: ratio and emotion, prefrontal cortex and limbic system. You feel a certain emotion and even though the rational part of your brain tells otherwise the emotion is still felt. Bigtime. Those two parts of the brain don't communicate with each other.

for example: You know that there is nothing to feel insecure about, you know that you've done the ting you have to do several times before. You know that you have support from friends. But you feel insecure, you feel anxiety, you feel like you are going to fail/scared.

(For those who read Ameisens book, nice example there: He knows that he is a good phycician, he knows that he's the personal phycician of the Frenche persident, he knows that he's got a good running practice, he knows that it is his name that's on the sign on the door: But he feels like a fraud, who isn't good enough, he feels like a failure... although all rationale says otherwise.)

With 'normal'/healthy people, those two parts interact. And those feelings thus become less and don't interfere with daily functioning anymore. But for addicts those two don't interact, and since the limbic system is the more dominant part of the brain, addicts then tend to act on basis of the emotion.

Futhermore, this state of disbalance of the brain is perceived by the addict as 'something that's not right' (and it isn't ) , something feels out of place, something feels wrong. What happens when when the drug of choice is being taken (alcohol, drugs, but also gambling , sex, eating/not-eating (boulimia, anorexia etc) ) ... those two parts of the brain start interacting again.

Who as an addict doesn't know the feeling of that first drink, first hit, whatever, that everything seems like it should again. That feeling of dis-ease is gone, everything is in it's place. The disbalance is gone. Take notice here: this is apart from the high that the drug/drink gives you. It's a two for one sale: The disbalance is gone/limbic system-prefrontal cortex communicate again AND you feel the intoxicating effect of the drug/drink.

When an addict is in this state of disbalance, sooner or later the thought of a drink or a hit comes to mind (the craving people talk about). But it is this state of disbalance, non communication of those two parts of the brain that is the problem.

Ok, since it is a thing in the brain, and you always have you're brain with you, everywhere you go. This state of disbalance is always present. Sometimes in the background, sometimes right in your face. But from the moment you wake up , until you go to sleep (and in your sleep, dreams of drinking/using for example, the mind has thought itself that using counteracts the disbalance). But like i said, always present. For example : Waking up, thinking about yesterday (did i handle this or that right?: insecurity) , putting on your clothes, do i look allright? Leaving the house (did i turn the lights off, did i lock the door?) , Talking to the neighbours on your way out , what do they think of me? Going to work, am i good enough for the task i should do today? etc etc etc etc etc etc etc...

The whole day is riddled with these kind of things where healthy people just step over in all calmness because their ratio tells them: "it's allright...", for an addict in all those examples there is a potential for a bad-ass misscommunication (or better non- communication) between the feeling they have and their ratio isn't able to calm it down. Which leads to insecurity, anxiety, stress, dis-ease, accompanied by an underlying feeling of 'something is not quite as it should....' , throw in a trigger: people, places or things, a scent, whatever what remind them of using (or most of the time this is not even neccesary: get stuck in this disbalance long enough and the thought comes by itself): et voila: craving.

Ok...

What does Baclofen do. Gaba agonstics as it is, it helps those two parts, ratio and emotion, of the brain to communicate with eachother again. It takes away the disbalance.
Which as a result helps the brain again to counteract the feelings of anxiety, stress whatever with the ratio part again. Like it does in healthy persons. Which as a result, to not having the feeling of dis-ease any more, not having the feeling that 'something is not quite as it should' , which results in no more cravings for drug(s)of choice.

Take it a step further: Why does a 12 step program work? For example: If you have a feeling of disbalance, please stop obsessing over it yourself, you won't find a solution. The brain of an addict doens't work like it should. Call a fellow , call your sponsor, (eg. call someone who isn't currently in this state of disbalance between ratio and emotions) and follow the advice he or she gives you. 12 step programs give you a way in dealing with this disbalance. This nonfunctioning part of the addicted brain. Which may or may not heal over a few years, become better functioning whatever. That's ok. It requires a lot of work, It's hard, it's difficult, so much that many people relapse, but it's ok. Maybe unneccesary, but ok. If it helps, it helps. (??)

otoh It's like learing to walk on a broken leg. Sure it can be done. With enough perseverance, commitment, endurance, you can succeed. It's difficult, and many people who try it , break it again a few times... but eventually it heals, and you walk again.
Baclofen is like screwing a metal plate onto a broken leg: learning to walk again is still neccesary, but it makes it a hell of a lot easier and safer. Addiction is a terminall illness after all.

Like someone above said: it's strange to combat a physical illness with only spiritual principles... (Isn't to say that they don't help... Yes i take baclofen, yes it has been the main cause of my life being good again, but also still go to NA/AA)

[lostsole]

Baclofen, AA, NA and anxiety

Well baclofen would be a heck of a w/d if you think about it. Probably as bad as a benzo w/d.

Different reasons though obviously. I think there is still a place for benzos and I have had to use small doses from time to time to deal with serious side effects from baclofen. I had some administered to me during an anxiety attack and it was a good thing. Taking them for kicks or on a normal basis I think is a different angle and should be stated as so. Just saying...

I would just be careful how you phrase things.

[evieb73]

Baclofen, AA, NA and anxiety

evieb73

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am currently waiting for baclofen I have ordered off the internet and I guess have lots of questions and fear as I feel this is something I am holding great store in. It feels good to be doing something that may help me towards a solution.
I worked for 9 years as a drug and alcohol counsellor and for the most part enjoyed heavy drinking although aware of it's limitations until I encountered a number of awful life events 3 years ago and anxiety went off the scale. I carried on drinking for a while then 2 1/2 years ago I went to rehab. I lasted 8 weeks in rehab and another 8 weeks out not drinking but my partner was a heavy drinker and I soon returned to drinking.
I walked out of this abusive relationship last March and started going to AA, after a few months of relapsing I managed to stay sober for 9 months but continued to experience shocking anxiety, problems with isolating myself and ended up going off sick from work from Feb to August this year. I drank again in March and in May, stayed sober again after that for 5 months but again miserable had a 4 day binge last week!! I feel the anxiety sits with me like Dr Armesien identified even when I am doing swimming, yoga, going to AA meetings and am back working again!! It is a daily battle at best and at worst a living hell. I used to be a very functioning alcoholic, working, heavy socialising and enjoying outdoor and family life, now I feel socially quiet, isolated and like a failure in AA...........i feel like i am out of last resorts! I was psychologically as opposed to physically dependent on alcohol and with this am worried that baclofen won't have the same success.
I have read Dr As book which I bought and identified with 2 years ago despite this I tried the spiritual sober route. I have tried antidepressants, pregabalin and am currently on an antidepressant, buspirone and sometimes benzos. I spend a lot of time on my own and after my last 4 day binge last week I have not been back to AA, I find it makes me feel more anxious and fearful and stigmatised and because there is so much going on in my head I find keeping it in the day and talking about myself soooooo difficult. AA has left me more confused and guilty and lost than ever.
I am hopeful that baclofen will help my anxiety and perhaps even then allow me to productively engage with AA. I have a first appointment with a psychologist on Tuesday. I have a 1 to 3 week wait before the baclofen arrives. Would v much appreciate any feedback, particularly how baclofen helped you re motivation, obsessional thinking, low self worth and fear!

[lostsole]

Baclofen, AA, NA and anxiety

Well it helped my anxiety to a point that's for sure. I still have some issues here and there but I noticed I felt more comfortable in society. Motivation, well the SE's made that tough for a while with the somnolence and insomnia for me. I am better now.

Never really had bad self worth except when I was drinking heavy and hungover. It the pits of the spiral. Then I did feel lousy about everything. Getting off the booze was what helped with that for me.

Buspar never did anything for me. That was when I was diagnosed with GAD. Benzos were short term for me. SSRI's had too many SE's and the docs liked to hand them out like candy. I hated them. I still drank.

Bac has been the only thing that has helped me. I still drink at times but not crazy. I go spells without it and I can easily say no. I am just back to more of a normal type person. I feel better about my job, myself, and my future.

Give it a chance. It may take a while so be patient with it. If you get SE's don't let them freak you out. I think most of us went through that. Some don't, lucky guys.

[agassizii]

Baclofen, AA, NA and anxiety

evieb73;1396581 wrote: evieb73

...even when I am doing swimming, yoga, going to AA meetings and am back working again!! It is a daily battle at best and at worst a living hell.

I am hopeful that baclofen will help my anxiety and perhaps even then allow me to productively engage with AA.

I have a 1 to 3 week wait before the baclofen arrives. Would v much appreciate any feedback, particularly how bac helped you re motivation, obsessional thinking, low self worth and fear!

Evie,

I very much relate to your story. It is so very dispiriting to be doing all the "right" things and yet still struggle.

My experience was that bac did provide the last additional ingredient to make the formula work. Having read many stories here, combined with my personal experience, it seems most effective to use all of the techniques which a person has found at least partially effective and then add in the bac to get over the last hurdle.

AA is a beautiful program for those of us with this disease, but some of us find it is either not enough by itself or seems to "quit working" at some point, often after times of prolonged, severe stress. I believe it is a mistake and harmful that so may in AA are dismissive of even the possibility of the use of modern medical interventions for our disease. So to answer your question, I do think that the bac will certainly help one engage productively with AA, and the combination of the two is very powerful. And all the other things you have been using such as yoga, exercise, and connecting with people are also very, very beneficial...

My personal experience was that it was best go to slow, be mindful of how one's body and mind respond to the bac, and to thoughtfully manage any SEs one may encounter.

I have sense that you will succeed with this.

Ag

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Baclofen, AA, NA and anxiety

I am struck by how astute Peterhd's post is regarding my own feelings about baclofen and recovery. I think, Gratitude, he answered the question.

Welcome, Evie. I can relate to doing all of the right things (or trying to do them) and still struggling desperately to maintain some sort of grasp on some sort of sobriety. Nothing ever worked for me. Not long term, and not really even in the short term.

Baclofen did. I think that having a background in addiction, having experience with AA and the twelve steps, can be really beneficial. It can also be a burden. It was for me. It took me more than a year, maybe longer, to dispense with and dispose of some of the tenets of traditional recovery programs. For instance, that alcoholics/addicts that do not get well are "incapable of rigorous honesty". Oy. That one is a doozy. Totally inaccurate, but it still smarts.

Anyway, I have been to a meeting recently, and would like to keep going for a number of reasons. But not because I need the program to stay sober. I am sober. I am completely free of the compulsion to drink (or anything related to addiction.) Baclofen works.

I'm glad you've joined us. Hang in there.

[evieb73]

Baclofen, AA, NA and anxiety

Hey its great to get feedback so soon, already allowing me to feel amongst folk who understand and want the best!
Yes I tried to run with the 12 steps and surrender but with 9 years of working in harm reduction and years of excessive drinking under my belt which I often loved I found myself constantly questioning and feeling admonished by the AA programme and constantly bombarded by the good meaning AA folk.
The main reasons I embarked on sorting out my drinking was not really due to the 40 to 50 units a week that I would drink but because alcohol and anxiety dont mix, relationship issues and because I liked the idea of becoming a mum.
2 years down the line and I have had more things go wrong due to anxiety and avoidance than I did when I was drinking! :thanks:

[lostsole]

Baclofen, AA, NA and anxiety

You are right about anxiety and booze.

The booze makes it worse especially if you are abusing it on a daily basis. I think some of us have used it on social occasions and it can work if you don't go crazy. That usually does not work IMHO.

It's a bad cycle.

Good luck. Let us know and I hope you bought a lot of baclofen. You have to commit to it.

[evieb73]

Baclofen, AA, NA and anxiety

I have just been reading about the side effects and the benefits of baclofen, it all seems quite daunting. I was thinking of going to speak to my GP about it tomorrow to see if he would prescribe but having read the px guidelines for GPs I am doubtful he would be willing. He has been an amazing support to me and has worked with me px different meds but trying to encourage me to try to become med free. I have only found relief from benzos but this has been short term and they are horrid to come off. I have put myself through hell and am so sick and tired of being a dry drunk! I have cut myself off from folk and have been so lacking in motivation, made friends in AA then they have moved away because I am so resistant to it all and shit at following the suggestions.
I do recall a couple of years ago I had ordered some baclofen off the internet and was taking it quite low dose for about a week, a week also when I didn't drink. It is a bit vague now but I do remember finding it easier not to drink. Will the baclofen help me to feel any more connected and any less down on myself? Now that I have ordered it and am planning to try it it is all I can think about, I am doing a lot of reading at the mo and although hopeful, also worried. Apart from a bottle of wine last night I haven't drank anything since a week ago. I am just holding it together, would like to just drink until the baclofen arrives but can't fk up work I only been back working again for about 6 weeks. Oh how I wish I could drink like other folk!

[lostsole]

Baclofen, AA, NA and anxiety

It sounds like a low dose of baclofen might work for you. If you can lay off the booze already then maybe with the added help of bac you may reach your goal.

It can and does help many with anxiety. Especially at lower doses. Take small doses and divide them up into 3, that's my opinion. Maybe start with 5mg 2x day? then move to 5mg 3x day? And so on. Go real slow. Take that last dose nearer to bed time.

It just might make you a bit tired. Those are low doses though. I see some have had luck at about 30mg total. I wish that would have done it for me. I am at 230.

[lostsole]

Baclofen, AA, NA and anxiety

Oh and I would not suggest talking to your GP about it and unless you are really going all in. I don't know about feeling more connected and less down but if it helps you with anxiety and drinking that might be what you need.

If you are truly depressed, you might need another course like CBT. Meds possibly but I hate SSRI's and A/D's.