I really need help fast!

[spacebebe01]

I really need help fast!

This whole conversation sounds very wrong to me, not that your having the conversation I mean but the fact that there could even be a discrepancy with drug content. Surely say 10mg of baclofen active ingridient must mean that no matter what brand it is, there can not be a 40% discrepancy allowed for. What would happen if this where to happen with Warfarin for example, someone could bleed to death just because the chemist happened to have a different brand in. I do have to go the my chemists tomorrow and will ask about this because it has got me worried now, not about bac because I have to buy mine and always get the same brand but about other meds I get prescribed, which are sometimes a different brand.

[Cashregister]

I really need help fast!

There is a discrepancy in some warfarin meds in oz and doctors are well aware of it. Most of them have less than 3% or less but it's best to always read the ingredient information in your medication.

[Cashregister]

I really need help fast!

This may help
Frequently asked questions about generic medicines - Australian Prescriber

Doctors prescribe meds that are equivalent under law - don't panic - but your chemist is sure to be able to give you the info on your specific meds to reassure you.

[RedThread12]

I really need help fast!

Hi, Keene: I'm late to the party, as usual, but have a couple of things to say. First, I've had very much the same kind of "overdose" experience that you describe. The first time it happened, I think I actually DOUBLED my 180 daily dose at that time. The next time I (am pretty sure) I did just what you did - I took an additional full dose - but this time I was only taking 120 mg/day. So that means I only had 40 mg more, AND my symptoms were pretty much the same, both times. Buzzing ears, vomiting, loss of balance . . . I didn't fall, but I also wasn't trying to talk around much. It is not a very happy place to be. Fortunately, especially the first time, I had read enough here on MWO, and a member once posted his horror story of going to the ER for either an overdose or withdrawal, that I knew not to to that. So I just waited it out. Of course, I didn't have the issue of not having enough bac on hand! Yikes!

And, yes, there does seem to be a noticeable difference in the strength of different brands of baclofen. This is according to the direct experience of many MWO members. It has nothing to do with what the legal requirements are. And yes, Pacifen has been observed among members of this board to be somewhat less potent than some other generic brands, Lioresal included. If you do some reading back into the bac threads - for 3-4 years! - you will find where people reported this, and began to recommend that, when changing brands, instead of just stopping one and starting the other, replacing single doses intermittently with the new one.

That said, there are also some brands that do seem to have some additional, especially "evil" compounds that make the SE's much worse. I think the thread is "Bad Bac," posted by LoOp. It's a good thread, as are many that were being posted about baclofen around that time. Dr. L recommends using WalGreen's for Teva brand. But PLEASE, wherever you fill your prescription, ASK them what brand they dispense. I know that WalGreen's sometimes uses 2 different brands for 10 mg and 20 mg pills. The only brand that I recall that is on the bac black list is Northstar. But there were 10 or more that LoOp listed, so check there, and then ask! LoOp's research is a wonder to behold, and to benefit from.

So I will have to respectfully disagree with those who say that there are no differences between brands, and ditto Ne's comment. That is just not true, according to the direct experience of quite a few long-time bac'sters. And also with IULL, whom I , appreciate, am grateful for, and whose posts I always look forward to, and a few that were posted in the past that are burned into my brain because of they were just so f'in funny that I laughed 'til I cried. An additional 1/3 of a dose in one day, even at not such a high dose, made me sick in the same way as the time I KNEW I had screwed myself. Because of that, I have revisited some online pharmacies and ordered phenergan to have in my . . . well, by now . . . medicine drawer.

Keene, your experiences and how you have sorted out what happened, etc., track exactly with my own, and with what has been posted on MWO over quite some time. Really glad you're getting your bac bac. Yes, absolutely, the remedy for baclofen withdrawal is baclofen. When they administer benzos for it in the ER, people taking high doses of baclofen seem to wind up tethered to the bed with big gaps in their recollection of what happened. I only know this from what I read here. I'm saying it again, too, and I don't mind sounding like a broken record: read, read, read!!! Read, Keene, and any and everyone who is taking or considering taking HDB. The bac threads from 2009 forward hold astounding, and astoundingly helpful, amounts of information.

Knowledge is power. And it sometimes take every bit of knowledge AND power to successfully navigate the bac path. Please keep coming back to let us know how you're going. Now YOU have made a huge contribution that can help others who come after to you. Thanks for that, and good luck, Keene!!

[terryk]

I really need help fast!

Cashregister;1367432 wrote: the upper limits for someone with say MS was 160mgs. Taper off but don't go back up high.

Ne/Neva Eva;1367442 wrote: That's not accurate.

Cashregister;1367953 wrote:

That's not exactly accurate either



What's this - twaddle? :Baclofen Dosage - a baclofen pump differs in dosage but I presume you don't have one? Need more info for baclofen for muscle spasticity just ask.

Did I mention i have actually taken it for an approved condition not off label???

Neurologists routinely prescribe oral baclofen (for MS, SCI, etc.) in excess of 80mg/day or even 160mg/day:

High Dose Oral Baclofen: Expenence in Patients with MS

"As expected, use of high-dose baclofen was frequent [...]" (up to 270mg/day)

and

Clinical and Pharmacokinetic Aspects of High Dose Baclofen Therapy

"Baclofen is a centrally acting muscle relaxant used for treatment of spasticity. Some patients, to experience adequate symptomatic relief, require dosages of baclofen that significantly exceed the conventional 80 mg daily maximum advocated by the 1992 Physicians' Desk Reference. In this pilot study of baclofen kinetics and dynamics in eleven patients, the safety and efficacy of high dose baclofen was confirmed." (up to 240mg/day)

That's accurate.

-tk

[Cashregister]

I really need help fast!

That's from 1992...wouldn't be accepted by my PhD supervisor!!
And you take 280mg and you quote the safe limit for spasticity as happens in MS as being 240mg max??? There are higher doses but the majority of patients including very close friends now have it pumped directly into their spines. ( this was not happening in your 1992 article on dosages which btw cites nothing much beyond 1986 - the administering of balofen has moved on somewhat for patients that used to take high oral doses)
Obviously as in so many arenas US law must lag sadly behind the rest of the world- here it lags in generic medicine. Poor us with our horrible socialised system....but you give me a US Govt site to prove to me that balofen is good for stopping cravings- I DON'T actually dispute that, I know gabapentin also be effective. I don't understand why you protest so much...
You will coninue to defend baclofen at extreme dosages to the death using outdated information and heresay despite this poor bugger taking 400mg, still drinking- and ending up in ER that's ok??
Oh whatever I say will be wrong, I only took the stuff for dystonia - wtf would I know. No point giving you references you can just go back to1992 and get your medical data there...
I am not anti baclofen but this holier than thou shit does my head in ( well should expect it from some Americans I guess- do you watch fox news by any chance?) - I was talking about Australua and I made that clear ( yes there are other countries out here) - and if you believe that 40% myth with evidence in front of your eyes well whatever.
I officially give up - hope it stops the AL issues for you all.
Ciao

[terryk]

I really need help fast!

Cashregister;1368041 wrote: That's from 1992...wouldn't be accepted by my PhD supervisor!!
And you take 280mg and you quote the safe limit for spasticity as happens in MS as being 240mg max??? There are higher doses but the majority of patients including very close friends now have it pumped directly into their spines. ( this was not happening in your 1992 article on dosages which btw cites nothing much beyond 1986 - the administering of balofen has moved on somewhat for patients that used to take high oral doses)
The Baclofen/MS article describes use of up to 270mg/day as safe and efficacious, it doesn't mention any safe limit (or that there is one).

I'm well aware of the history of Intrathecal Baclofen and it is not without its problems - there are many instances described in the literature of pump failure with catastrophic results.

I'm perplexed by your logic that a journal article written 20 years ago carries no relevance today. The safety and efficacy of a medication doesn't expire like an open carton of milk. If high-dose baclofen were unsafe and/or non-efficacious, someone would have noticed by now and written about it (no one has yet, despite decades of use).


Cashregister;1368041 wrote:
Obviously as in so many arenas US law must lag sadly behind the rest of the world- here it lags in generic medicine. Poor us with our horrible socialised system....but you give me a US Govt site to prove to me that balofen is good for stopping cravings- I DON'T actually dispute that, I know gabapentin also be effective. I don't understand why you protest so much...
You will coninue to defend baclofen at extreme dosages to the death using outdated information and heresay despite this poor bugger taking 400mg, still drinking- and ending up in ER that's ok??
Oh whatever I say will be wrong, I only took the stuff for dystonia - wtf would I know. No point giving you references you can just go back to1992 and get your medical data there...
I am not anti baclofen but this holier than thou shit does my head in ( well should expect it from some Americans I guess- do you watch fox news by any chance?) - I was talking about Australua and I made that clear ( yes there are other countries out here) - and if you believe that 40% myth with evidence in front of your eyes well whatever.
I officially give up - hope it stops the AL issues for you all.
Ciao

Ending up in the ER, still drinking and taking high-dose baclofen *is not ok,* and I should know, because it happened to me in a very dire way (see https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ml#post1038456 ). It happened, not because of the baclofen I was taking, but because the way I was taking it - Too much, too soon, and too haphazardly.

Cashregister, I don't know where your conniption comes from, or what I said to deserve to have it flung at me, but if you're calling people other out on their "holier than thou shit," you might want to re-examine some of the statements you've written in this thread.

Lastly....

In "Heal Thyself (u.s. paperback title)," Olivier Ameisen fleshes out the safey of high dose baclofen with his friend and fellow doctor (of neurology) John Schaefer (an Australian):

(page 175)
"John explained that 300 milligrams of oral baclofen a day was the conservative limit for neurologists of his generation, and that he had quite a few patients who took that much without any side effects. Younger neurologists tended to switch patients receiving over 120 milligrams a day to a spinal pump that had recently com on the market. But many neurologists saw no compelling reason to do this given the common reports of infection and other complications from the spinal pump."

and....

I don't watch Fox news, but I'd never mistake the rubbish they shovel there for meaningful information that remotely resembles reality. I might tune in for a chuckle if it weren't so saddening/maddening. The real kicker about your comment, though, is that Fox News is owned by Rupert Murdoch, an Australian.

Lighten up.
-tk

p.s. Both are naturalized/dual citizens, yeah I know.

p.p.s. when the word efficacious is used above, it's in regard to spasticity

[COSGringo]

I really need help fast!

All I can say is wow Cash.

[keenegear89]

I really need help fast!

Wow, Thanks everyone! That was a lot of great info. I did get my bac from walgreens but they are manufactured from Zenith, hopefully they are good but they seem to be doing the trick. Next time I refill I'll ask if they carry the Teva brand but I will never switch my whole dose over to a new brand again because I do believe those Lioresal where stronger then the Mylan bac's.

I looked up phenergan and that does sound like a good idea to have around.

I figured out with 3-4 days without bac and some scary withdrawal, I believe I am back down to 220mg and the doctor said to only go up 20mg per week, so I'll be following his instructions. Before I was doing some crazy shit with my bac. At first I found out I liked the stuff and would do, who knows maybe 200mg-400mg and go out and get drunk with it. Amazes me I didn?t over dose on those days. Then I held 200mg a couple weeks but I realized, I was running out and had to taper down fast to 80mg for awhile, then bac arrived, went up quick again. I think I was able to do all that because I was new to bac but now my brain depends on it or something. Well I've learned the hard way and from you all, not to play around with bac. It's scary what it can do.

I didn?t drink last night and the night before didn?t feel like drinking at all, I had to pretty much force myself to drink 3 beers, so this stuff might have decided to start to work for me! I have learned, when I get frustrated from my hectic day not to go run out to the liquor store, being angry. What I've found out what works for me, is just to sit down, relax and my drinking craving goes away quite quick! Its weird but glad I've found out that has worked, so far. That would have never worked for me before. So for now on, I'll be trying that instead, before getting drunk.

Btw how do you guys dose? I've been dosing 3 times a day, spacing them randomly thru out the day. I took my last dose yesterday around 5pm and this morning at 6am, I woke up and felt anxiety creeping in, so I took 100mg first thing as I awoke, but I felt kinda dizzy afterwards, so that might have been to much. I was planning to do 60 at noon and the other 60 around 6pm. Maybe, my brain is still adjusting from my 3-4 days without bac but idk?

Thanks!

[StuckinLA]

I really need help fast!

Wow dude. 1st, glad everything has worked out and you got your script. I think Zenith is Teva, but I could be completely wrong about that. Which is just lazy on my part, as I'm obviously at my computer on the internet at this very moment...

I'm too terrified of bac to go all willy-nilly with it. Maybe I just need to lighten up? Or maybe this is the kind of anxiety bac is supposed to fix? Who knows... but I swear I feel even a 5mg difference in dose. Anything over 50mg at a time and I don't feel well. There's also some info in the https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ead-38718.html, which I finally read through in its entirety last night, that suggests anything over 60mg at a time is absorbed less effectively.

Oh, and about that thread, there's a lot of cheerleading and back-slapping that gets in the way for several pages, but then later on there's a lot of good info and scanned articles that got buried, so I do recommend at least glancing through every page to find the stuff that comes later... then again, it might all be linked on the 1st page by now, didn't double-check.

Um, to your question. I had been doing 4 doses, every 5-6 hours. That worked well up to about 225, then ran into problems, and am now working out some kind of 8 dose schedule every 2 1/2 hours... but there don't seem to be enough hours in the day for that. You can check the last few posts on my thread for more info on my dose changes. I try to do even doses throughout the day, but if that's impractical for pill-splitting reasons I'll do slightly larger doses in the evening and at night.

Hope this helps. You'll work it out.

[Cashregister]

I really need help fast!

Oh well not with my meds but I guess I check them out carefully....my conniption was about comparing apples and oranges - the brain of an alcoholic has the same amount of neurotransmitter imbalance as a brain with dystonia or MS? So the same amount of medication is ok? My neurologist doesn't think so. This is sill imprecise science where alcoholism is concerned. If it stops you drinking, great though. I wasn't drinking when I took it and it made me very ill - one thing you learn with a neurological disorder is that everyone's brain is different - as has been pointed out balofen has been studied for years for certain conditions...this is a relatively new usage so if you are DYI be careful that's all.
Proof- not yet.

Response to Ameisen

[Cashregister]

I really need help fast!

And sorry for my rant before was aimed more at the universe than anyone in particular...really. Excuse my rudeness I just have a lot of illnesses on my plate and the neurological ones ain't fun. I've done a lot of research on them, so who's to say you haven't on yours. Just scares me when people go it alone on meds...sorry.

[StuckinLA]

I really need help fast!

desperados;1368490 wrote: Edit: wait a second the combo of adderall & xanax remains me of a certain poster who's on it and claims that thanks to HDB she's no longer drinking against her will, Ne(h) I guess I got it all wrong again

Hiya again, desp.

Worry not! I teach rhetoric and critical thinking, too. So what we can see here is that you start off making a personal observation--that a certain combination of prescription medications re... wait, rem... um, well I'm sure you meant reminds you of someone here on MWO. And that's great! Details like this can often segue nicely into larger claims.

You start to go astray quickly, though. First, because you're talking about both adderall & xanax, your pronoun it should actually be the plural relative pronoun them. Second, this poster is not on it, or them. Or, well, I suppose if it referred only to adderall then we'd be in the clear, sort of. But if it is meant to refer to xanax, then you're making factually inaccurate statements. If it would help you to see your error more clearly, I could go through the public forum and quote the relative evidence for you, though really that would be good practice for you to do on your own. So let's just call that a homework assignment, and if you have any trouble you can PM me for help.

Now that we've got all that cleared up, let's look at the transition and the next part of your sentence. You say and claims that thanks to HDB she's no longer drinking against her will. This is what's called a red herring fallacy. The statement itself is perfectly true, but completely unrelated to adderall and/or xanax, and so the effect is to distract your reader from your main claim. And it's intellectually dishonest, which is why it's a logical fallacy.

Finally, leaving aside what I assume is sarcasm at the end of your sentence, you really hit the nail on the head. You're smart enough to see that you did get it all wrong again, but clearly not for the reasons you think.

I hope this clears up your confusion!

~Stuck

[BillF]

I really need help fast!

The way HDB is right now, there is no way to test it. The method says there is no upper limit as long as you go up "slowly". At some point you will be psychotic and/or retching your guts out (thus dropping out due to side-effects), or so stoned that you won't drink, or eat, or work. BUT, you won't be craving alcohol.

Thus, the success rate (discounting the weakling drop-outs) will always be 100%.

[windycitylady]

I really need help fast!

Alright, Bill. You've convinced me. I'm throwing out all my bac.
One thing I'm unclear on. You passionately rail against bac, meds in general, supplements, and AA. So what DOES work? Because, I mean, you've obviously got this shit figured out. I would love to be as sane and happy as you.