Colin, 65

[Colin]

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.

[Rainyday]

Colin, 65

hmmmm... and?

[Colin]

Colin, 65

I am a 65 year old white male atheist and have been drinking to excess for most of the last 50 years. 6 months ago I entered a drying-out clinic and since then have been teetotal. My drugs of choice are currently baclofen, citalopram and mirtazapine which seem to be doing a very good job with depression, migraine and alcoholism.
The stimulus to getting the booze under control was repeatedly falling over when very drunk. My sister telling me that I was boring when drunk was also a strong reason to do something about the problem.
Abstinence is not per se my intention but I am very interested in getting the beast under some form of control.
This (MWO) seems like an excellent place to park a potted history of my relationship with alcohol. I will post a small number of pieces describing my life as it relates to alcohol misuse and periodic updates of my drug use.
Currently I am taking 135 mg of Baclofen spread as 25, 25, 10, 25, 25, 25 over the day. It has taken 4 months to get this far and has been especially slow over the last 6 weeks. I am increasing in steps of 5mg when the somnolence has subsided. So far I have noticed a significant mood improvement and staying AF has not been a problem.

[Rainyday]

Colin, 65

Awesome Colin! Although, please see my post which I just sent under "Totally new to Forum, Sort of New to Bac."

[paula]

Colin, 65

Welldone, and welcome Colin. I personally can't drink alcohol normally so have to abstain. I know a lot of people on this site do manage to moderat their intake. Good luck.

[Greg]

Colin, 65

Hi and welcome Colin. I am currently abstaining (and hoping to remain abstinent), and have found mirtazapine very useful in combination with Antabuse. There has been mention of mirtazapine and baclofen together being useful for cravings too. I have also been considering escitalopram (Lexapro) which basically is almost the same as citalopram, if my depression is not contained by mirtazapine alone. I have been interested to read of the combination you are taking, as it is basically what I was considering (and still thinking about if I need it), and I'd like to wish you all the best!

[Colin]

Colin, 65

Nicotine, Temazepam and other drugs.

I suppose I started smoking cigarettes when I was about 12 years old. It seemed such a cool sophisticated thing to do. I made a few half-hearted attempts to stop smoking before being treated for mouth cancer in 2008. The surgery and radiation treatment made smoking impossible so I can make no claim to having any moral fibre. Towards the end of the radiation I was on very high doses of MS Contin (a timed release morphine) which provided some pleasant relief. A drinking friend had warned me that the trick with self administering morphine was to make sure there was just a little pain most of the time. This should prevent me from becoming addicted. Good advice - the pain and morphine disappeared simultaneously within a week of the radiation ending.

I started drinking beer when I was about 15 years old. Older friends and their brothers all did it so I tried it and liked it more or less from the first pint. I remember that I became much more self-confident with a few pints inside and everything seemed muuuuch better. Sex 'n drugs 'n rock 'n roll were to be the prime carriers of nearly all forms of relaxation. Life was suddenly looking a lot better after the miseries of puberty.

By the time I was 25 I was earning more money than I could spend on drink and the limiting factor now was the requirement to be reasonably sober at work. Lunchtime drinking sometimes spilled over into the afternoon but not often enough to cause a problem.

One day during a skiing holiday (I was about 30 years old at the time) I had arranged to meet a friend for lunch at a restaurant half way down a mountain. On the way down I fell and broke my skiing goggles. The bright sun was sufficient to start a migraine attack which was going to mean I would be returning to the hotel to hide away in a dark room for the rest of the day. When I met my friend I explained what had happened and he asked "Have you ever had migraine when you have been drunk?" After my negative reply he continued "Well then?" Whilst the infusion of alcohol was too late to prevent the migraine I have often succeeded in preventing or delaying a migraine attack by consuming large quantities of alcohol. Both mirtazapine and baclofen are suspected of helping migraine attacks.

When I was about 45 years old I was persuaded to consult by GP concerning my alcohol consumption and this resulted in me taking "refusal" (disulfram) to completely prevent boozing and temazepam to get me to sleep without booze. This provided me with an alcohol-free period of a few months before slowly returning to my previous pattern.

I was around 50 years old when I promised my charming lady friend "I will never drink ever again for the rest of my life." I stopped for a few weeks but that was all. I might have been serious when I said it but I easily forgot that promise.

At the age of 60 I met my psychiatrist for the first time. My new GP (the older trusted version had retired) would not prescribe disulfiram but after much intransigence on my part he referred me to a psychiatrist. After a long discussion my new psychiatrist wrote a prescription for disulfiram and in parting asked whether I ever felt depressive. The question came as a surprise and after some thought I replied "Maybe, sometimes but let's get the alcohol question out of the way first." When I saw him again after a few months I confirmed that I was certainly going through a period when very little was giving me any pleasure. I asked him which of the alcohol and depression caused the other but he did not feel able to answer. Since then I have been on 40mg per day citalopram and it provided an enormous change in my mood and ability to enjoy moments.

In November last year I entered a drying-out clinic. They did a good job getting me over the immediate withdrawal symptoms and getting some much needed exercise. Unfortunately they were part of the commercial branch of AA and I simply could not swallow all the religious mumbo-jumbo. It was only later that I read the Orange papers and discovered what a bunch of greedy hypocrites that miserable organisation really contains. During this stay I was given a very low dose of mirtazapine to help me withdraw from temazepam. I was indifferent to being addicted to sleeping pills but since I was there I might as well see what happened. Eventually I could take no more of the cant and ignorance and discharged myself before the temazapine had done its work.

In April this year I entered another clinic and had a much better time being exposed to the scientific rather than religious approach to gross alcohol abuse. For the last 4 months I have been prescribed baclofen. The temazepam has been discontinued but not the mirtazepam. I noticed a sudden mood deterioration when stopping even the 7.5mg per day of mirtazapine and have continued since with that dose. Clearly I might consider some changes to the relative doses of the anti-depressants.

I have been teetotal for the last 6 months and am curious about the future.

[Colin]

Colin, 65

Migraine and alcohol

I suffered migraine attacks from about 10 years old until the present. I have always experienced the "aura" (visual disturbances which I refer to as the migraine "spots") immediately preceding the debilitating headache.

The skiing incident referred to earlier in this thread was the first time I associated alcohol with being a treatment for migraine. I have never had a migraine attack once I have already started drinking alcohol - given the ferocity of the migraine attacks this could have been a strong reason to start boozing when I felt a migraine attack starting. I never seemed to get enough advance warning of the migraine and in any case if an attack started when I was working the alcohol was just too far away.

The migraine attacks were about every two weeks until I was 25 years old and then became less frequent until I was 40, at which age I started experiencing the aura and sometimes the tactile disturbances but no longer the headache. Did this have anything to do with the large quantities of alcohol I was consuming? Am I very grateful for whatever caused the change?

One of my baclofen side-effects is a visual disturbance similar to the migraine spots. The migraine effect is relatively slow moving and remains constantly affecting my vision whereas the baclofen effect is a small number of very short (< 1 second) disturbances.

Searching PubMed for migraine along with alcohol/mirtazapine/baclofen yields a surprising number of papers suggesting a strong correlation. Since adding baclofen and mirtazapine to my diet I have experienced no change in my admittedly minor migraine attacks.

[Colin]

Colin, 65

January 2012 - October 2012

The first couple of months in 2012 I was still AF after the time at the 12-step clinic. This was being helped with Refusal (A brand of disulfiram) which, as on previous occasions, was easily stopped a couple of weeks before I wanted a drink. This schizophrenic behaviour was well known to me - on the one hand I wanted a drink and was prepared to plan ahead and on the other hand I didn't want a drink and I'd let the future take care of itself.

Not unexpectedly it did not stop at a couple of drinks and I was not helped by discovering a cafe with an fine selection of malt whiskys. A month later I fell asleep around the toilet and later made it into bed but the next day my lady-friend's younger son drove me to Oirschot for an appointment with the addiction specialist at the clinic. They couldn't take me in for four days so I returned home and checked into the psychiatric unit at the local hospital. They knew me from prior visits and figured correctly that a few days in a quiet place would be an excellent choice for me at that time. The day I was due to leave for the clinic my psychiatrist called my partner to convince her that the clinic was the best choice for me.

I committed myself to a seven week stay which was partly funded by the health insurance and partly by myself. In the previous few months I had become acquainted with naltrexone and baclofen on the internet and baclofen seemed to be the more promising. I had already read Ameisen's book "The End of My Addiction" and had been reassured to hear that the clinic prescribed Baclofen.

During the first couple of weeks in Oirschot I was confined to the clinic and returned home for the later weekends. With good food, good exercise facilities and unusually good weather I certainly had a great start to sobriety. In addition the absence of the 12-step nonsense left me enjoying my stay. I began with Baclofen during the last two weeks of my stay. During the stay my physical condition, which was terrible, began a noticeable improvement and my sleep recovered to an almost normal pattern. An unexpected bonus was stopping the tamazepam that I had been taking for the previous twenty years.

During the next four months I have continued the physical exercise and attend a gym for an hour or so every day. A measure of how bad my condition had become under a 50-year long liquid diet can be gauged by the fact that I am still improving my performance on at least one of the exercises everyday. The Baclofen is now at 135mg per day and it is still my intention to try to increase. A very useful book is "The b4A Baclofen Handbook" by Dr. Philip Thomas which provides useful information on most aspects of Baclofen.

What seems to work best for me is spreading the dose evenly over 4-6 times a day with the last pill immediately before going to bed. I am regularly sleeping 8-10 hours and waking refreshed. Sleeping for so long is not unusual for me - since the cancer treatment in 2008 10 hours sleep is frequent. Only when the boozing went through the roof was I experiencing disturbed sleep of less than 8 hours.

At no time in the last 6 months have I felt any real inclination to drink alcohol but..... I don't seem to have any cravings at all so how can i tell when I have reached the maximum? Ameisen's test with a bottle of whisky seems a bit over the top but trying a few beers might be OK? Why can't I just leave it alone and not even bother discovering my Damascene moment? Why is life so boring when no risks are taken?

[Xadrian]

Colin, 65

Test if you reached the switch

Hi there, Colin.

After 50 days of AF I drank 12 cans of beer. Not because I had a craving, but I just wanted to.
The following day, no cravings or what so ever.

After that, AF for a month or so, then I drank 8 cans of beer of the 12 I bought.
The remaining 4 stayed in the fridge for over a month.
Before Baclofen, I would have drunk them the following day, but now I absolutely had no need for that.

My switch (I call it the "reset button") was as low as 90 mg (I'm a male of then 110 kg) and my maintenance dose seems to be 50 mg.

I now drink on average 8 beers once a month when I want to, but at a party I mostly choose to drink Sprite, because I don't have the need for beer. I'm really indifferent regarding beer.
Like I sometimes choose to do peanutbutter on my sandwich, but most of the time cheese or ham, I sometimes choose to drink beer, but most of the time "sinas" (you know what sinas is), Sprite or water.

You have hit the switch when you dont NEED the alcohol anymore, when you're indifferent for it. If you occasionally drink some alcohol, but can stay off it for a long time after that without much effort, it means you are indifferent and already reached the switch.
Reaching the switch doesn't mean you are unable to drink alcohol anymore, like some tend to believe.

I'm satisfied with the current situation and my wife doesn't seem to have a problem with it either.
My goal is achieved and within no time, without much effort.

Take care.

[Colin]

Colin, 65

Xadrian,
Your experience typifies what I would like to achieve - I will believe there is a breakthrough if drinking a lot of booze after a long dry period can be effortlessly followed by another long dry period.

I will be putting the theory to the test when I get fed up with the SEs. I don't seem to experience cravings in the way that most people here report them so I will not have the luxury of suddenly noticing their absence. I understand that a premature failed test will not be fatal but I don't like failing anything.

I'll will soon be adding another 5mg per day.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Colin, 65

Hi, Colin and welcome!

Interesting summation! And funny poem to open with.

I had an experience similar to Xadrian's. I was never abstinent, though, until I reached the point with baclofen that I didn't want to drink anymore. I found that it was a very easy and effortless decision not to drink anymore. I drank for a while after that, though mostly found that I didn't have any interest in drinking to excess. Or really even at all! I often didn't finish a beer or a glass of wine, but occasionally got drunk even after I was indifferent. I wonder now if it just takes some time to remove all vestiges of the disease? Whatever it is, I never drink to excess now. Even when I think I want to I can't. It's a standing joke between my husband and I! We've stopped ordering a bottle of wine when we go out to dinner because neither of us is going to drink more than a glass and even if we bring it home, it'll just go bad.
It might be in part because a baclofen+booze hangover is absolutely brutal. Or maybe the hangovers were always that bad but I experienced them daily, so I didn't know the difference? Who knows. Last time I drank too much (maybe four glasses of wine over about 6 hours at a party) I thought I was going to have to stay in bed for the entire next day! The headache! The nausea! The whole-body-ache. Ugh. Dreadful and to be avoided at all costs! The point is, though, that it never stopped me before. In fact, a doozy of a hangover was reason to start earlier in the day just to get over the hangover. Right?

That said, we don't tempt fate and I am very, very cautious and wary. I know now that if I start really thinking/wondering/worrying about booze, and I have a glass of wine or a beer I find that the results are the same and I don't have to think/wonder/worry. But I don't drink regularly and my life is very full with a lot of other new, different, demanding experiences. As well as a support system and a good therapist!

Glad you've joined us and hope you'll share your experience with others around here!

Ne

[Colin]

Colin, 65

Ne, it wasn't original. "This Be The Verse" by Philip Larkin for the complete poem.

[Colin]

Colin, 65

Physical Changes

At home and school I was fairly active in football, cycling and hill walking. I was given lots of encouragement and enjoyed them intensely. As a teenager it was of immense importance how well Manchester City performed. If they lost on Saturday I was inconsolable until at least the following Wednesday - most evenings until I was about 15 I was happy spanking a ball around until it got too dark to see. Not much good but that was made up for by immense enthusiasm.

Many weekends and most summer holidays I spent a lot of time on progressively severe walking holidays. In retrospect these were the occasions when I was beginning to push my personal envelope. The first time I noticed some elevated level of fitness was at the end of a long walking holiday in the north of England. I was running down long unstable scree slopes in complete control of myself - there was an exhilarating feeling being in charge during such a dangerous manoeuvre. At the end of a four week school holiday trekking in the Tirol, carrying everything except the kitchen sink, I felt the same enjoyment in my physical condition.

It was during this last holiday that I first got very very drunk in a short period - along with other like-minded hero's I bought a 1/2 litre of strong cheap nasty Austrian rum. I don't know how much of it I drank or how I returned to the camp - I do remember waking up and being sick as someone held my head out of the tent. The teacher in charge of my tent was not amused to see me smoking a cigarette during the next morning's first hour on the day's walk but limited his disapproval to a few sarcastic remarks. The attitude seemed to be that as long as I could perform physically then a few drinks and a few fags couldn't be all wrong.

During my first year at university I joined the boxing club - this was the last time in my life that I was really fit. Having a medicine ball dropped repeatedly on one's stomach by a sadistic trainer is an excellent way of toughening up the muscles. Apart from a few skiing trips and some light cycling I had little physical exercise during the next 45 years until about 6 months ago.

On entry to the clinic in Oirschot I was in a very poor physical and emotional condition but this was a nadir in my development. Since that point the combination of Baclofen and exercise has brought about an enormous change. Lo0p's thread on Baclofen and exercise rings a lot of bells for me and I believe wholeheartedly that there is something unusually effective in adding exercise to my Baclofen/Citalopram/Mirtazapine cocktail.

Apart from getting the muscles back into some sort of condition I have knee problems (cartilage under the kneecap) and poor blood circulation in my legs and feet but have not completely given up on a visit to the ski slopes.

After 4 days at 25-15-25-25-25-25 I seem to be getting 140mg Baclofen under control - the next step is 145 if all goes well. Today I have experienced minimal SEs.

EDIT: Added forward reference. Next "physical" post is

Colin;1410471 wrote: I'm having blood tests ...

[Bruunhilde]

Colin, 65

Welcome. COlin.

BACLOFEN IS USED I. BODYBUILDING So (SORRY THE Caps were Unintentional) ... you might want to research that although sounds like you might already know.
:welcome: