Colin, 65

[Colin]

Colin, 65

Depression and alcoholism

I recently asked Dr. de Beaurepaire, the author of Suppression of Alcohol Dependence Using Baclofen: A 2-Year Observational Study of 100 Patients why alcoholics with comorbid depression did not react well to baclofen.

His answer was:-
------------------------------------
I do not mean exactly that comorbid depression makes you less amenable to baclofen treatment, Just think that depressed people often do not really want to be freed from alcohol. And do not take their medication properly.
RB
------------------------------------

When I look back to the periods immediately before and immediately after I started citalopram, an anti-depressant, there was an enormous difference. Simple activities that gave no pleasure before were suddenly a reason to live!

Without treating the depression I would have had little or no reason to stop drinking if all that was on offer was a clear view of a depressing present and future.

De Beaurepaire has hit that nail squarely on its head.

[Colin]

Colin, 65

Masters of the Universe?

Recently a number of MWOers titrated down to 0mg and some time later started drinking like fishes. They all seem happily or otherwise back on baclofen with mixed feelings.
Hail to the adventurers, without them we wouldn't know any better?

But is it impossible?
PubMed Central, Table 2: Front Psychiatry. 2012; 3: 103. Published online 2012 December 3. doi:?*10.3389/fpsyt.2012.00103 is a summary of the results of Suppression of Alcohol Dependence Using Baclofen: A 2-Year Observational Study of 100 Patients

This line shows the success stories:-
------------------- 3months--------- 6months--------- 1year-------------2years
At low risk –--------50 (TD: 0)------- 52 (TD: 1)------- 48 (TD: 7)------- 50 (TD: 10)

TD indicates they stopped taking baclofen. At the end of the test period ten of the fifty success stories thought they were masters of the universe? or ...
I am curious what the follow-up will reveal.

[bleep]

Colin, 65

Speaking for myself, which obviously we all do, master of the universe is a pretty apt description. I had my cake, and was eating it by the plateful. I am pretty certain that this time around I will stay on baclofen permanently.

[Colin]

Colin, 65

Baclofen half-life

I found this on bleep's Indifference thread:-

I-want-to-be-sober;1051016 wrote: In case of chronic dosing t1/2 increases to ~ 6.5 hours (pharmacokinetics at steady state). Elimination of baclofen from the brain is much slower than it's elimination from the blood, resulting in more stable and persistent CNS levels (Spasticity: Disordered Motor Control. Chicago: Year Book Medical, 1980, pp 461-475).
Nice to see confirmation of something I have long suspected. How do they measure elimination from the brain? Stick a needle in and look at what comes back?

bleep's thread is a good read e.g.

bleep;1059818 wrote:
My biggest regret is not taking advantage of the lower dose and having a shag! Perhaps I'm doomed to having to drop my dose, have quick shag and a mini-binge, then go back up! :wow: Whatever - the level of choice that baclofen has given me, with regards to my whole lifestyle and life choices, is just phenomenal. I am truly grateful to Dr Ameisen for this.

A number of serial deleters' deletions made some of the remaining posts hard to understand but knowing why will keep you from pulling your hair out.

[MaryGoRound]

Colin, 65

C-

You are talking about something that has been on my mind and I really hope to clear up...can we, should we, do we want to stop Bac?

I have been struggling. I have many AF days but then I drink. I know Bac works by changing the brain but I am not always sure I like the changes. I am not sure I can be happy while on Bac but I know I can be miserable off Bac. I know that bac takes away some of "my feel good" stuff but I also know alcohol takes much more away. What is a person to do? For instance, I am not a depressed person but if I drink while taking Bac (190 mgs) I can sometimes go through bone crushing depression the next day which is not like me except maybe one day a month. On the other hand, do I go through life in a zombie like state that I feel as I go up?

I would be happy to take Bac as a maintenance treatment if I knew I could get my feel good stuff back. Do I have to make the choice between sobriety and joy? Can the old timers tell us (relatively) new people that this is just a phase? I hear it being said that titration is the problem and maintenance is fine but then I hear people trying to go down or off. Are you going down or off to get something back that you miss or is it to just get "off" everything?

I know the answers vary depending on the person but my real question is "is life good for you at the maintenance dose or is good because it is so much better than the alternative?"

[laurie65]

Colin, 65

Mary
My life is shit on Bac. Even on my worse hangover days.
I never feared dying in my sleep from lack of oxygen.
I never felt so bad in all my worst days.
Sorry to be a negative arse. But I really wonder?
I decided against reducing just two nights ago. In the morning I changed my mind and have reduced by 25 mgs.
Already I feel better.
Despite my negative input, I'm glad to have tried bac. It has opened me up to understanding that alcohol is just a symptom of my deeper problems.
I will continue to go down the chemical route to solve my addiction problems.
I will not come off bac. I still believe miracles are possible.
It just seems very clear to me that I cannot tolerate it at a high dose.
Just sayin'.....

[bleep]

Colin, 65

Mary, speaking for myself, life was better in every way but one on a maintenance dose. The one way it was not better was sex, as baclofen caused a reduction in feeling. I came down, and then off baclofen, mostly because I wanted to see if I could get away with it, not because of disliking what it did for me. I found that I then drank like a fish, and so have immediately and unhesitatingly started baclofen again.

I like experimenting, which is also why I tried to come off it.

It is difficult to overstate the enormous benefits that baclofen has brought to my life.

[laurie65]

Colin, 65

I apologise for my negative statement.
I just think for me that HDB is unbearable.
I do not wish to influence anyone.
And I think it could be profound.
Just for me...I never been so scared in all my life
Wish it was different.
Too scared to go higher.

Does this count as a poem?
Laurie x

[Colin]

Colin, 65

MaryGoRound;1483759 wrote: What is a person to do? For instance, I am not a depressed person but if I drink while taking Bac (190 mgs) I can sometimes go through bone crushing depression the next day which is not like me except maybe one day a month. On the other hand, do I go through life in a zombie like state that I feel as I go up?

You have the pieces of this conundrum but you need to do the juggling yourself and very few people here had an easy ride.
Yes, the zombie state as you increase the dose, is very common.
If the zombie state is currently intolerable then temporarily stop increasing or maybe even drop the dose a little. I found both of these to be great helps when I got fed up.
"bone crushing depression" after a baclofen hangover is probably par for the course.
As bleep has just written, the easy sobriety after getting alcohol under control is worth a lot but don't try and get there tomorrow.

Baclofen doesn't work for everybody but I see no reason why it can't work for you.
Good luck. A little self-pity is perfectly OK as long as it doesn't become a habit!

[ignominious]

Colin, 65

Hi Mary

There are some aspects of life without Baclofen that I prefer. The main one is "getting out of my head"! I have learnt how to deal with life as a drinker for 3 decades and know when and how to extract pleasure from it.

I've only tried coming to terms with life from a sober perspective for a couple of years and frankly a lot of it is tough. I think I'm getting better at it but there will always be some things that I enjoy more when being tanked up. Overall my life has taken a turn for the better with Bac.

Seriously think it would help if I could get some counseling while I have the Bac head on which allows me to actually look at my problems.

Part of my reason for going so low on Bac is because I prefer not to take drugs of any description and partly to diminish the unwanted SEs.

[kronkcarr]

Colin, 65

Colin,

I'm just getting around to reading individual threads. Thanks for posting yours. Very interesting and very interesting to see all the bickering that went on too. Thanks again.

kronkcarr

[Colin]

Colin, 65

The first alcoholic drinks in a year, two good malt whiskies and six small (20 cl) beers. Towards the end of this, a visit to a very good Dutch knocking shop. If anybody is having a problem with fruition I can recommend Lucia.

Let's see what tomorrow brings.

[ignominious]

Colin, 65

Interesting, thought provoking post. Think I'll have to read this thread!

[bleep]

Colin, 65

All the best Colin. Can't say I'd be particularly worried.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Colin, 65

kronkcarr;1487496 wrote: Colin,

Very interesting and very interesting to see all the bickering that went on too. Thanks again.

kronkcarr

All due respect, (sort of) I try very hard not to bicker. I am also not at all amused by someone who refers to me as a schoolgirl with the implication being that the things that I write here are easily dismissed as the petty thoughts of a child who does not give full thought to what she expresses. And I certainly don't keep score. Nor do I have any interest in being "right" at the expense of someone else's feelings. Particularly if someone feels that disagreement is a function of egoistic expression. That implies that someone needs to be right. And someone will be wrong. Again not my intention, and nothing I have interest in. Plus, I'm not really sure what all the kerfuffle was about, since I also find you (Colin) amusing. I'm posting this now (and this may be quibbling, but is certainly not bickering) because it is exactly the kind of thing that will bite me in the ass later if I don't respond to it. So, against my better judgment and any interest in any of this, I'm responding.

My original issue (with something Colin had written on another thread) had to do with a response to some factual information. It exasperated me. I very quickly realized that Colin has every right (of course) to express his opinion, and what's even more germane is that he hasn't asked me for my opinions of his opinion. I tried to make light of the situation and was further annoyed by a response that implied I was being childish rather than tongue-in-cheek. It's not the first time that the written word (particularly under these circumstances) does not accurately convey the writer's intention.

Perhaps the whole thing is cultural. Colin, you're not the first British expat that I have annoyed. (Hi, Ig. By the way, you were right. Sorry about that. I've wanted to tell you that for the last year, but figured it would just piss [anger] you off further. Glad you're getting better again.)

Colin, I'm also glad that this experiment has brought fruition. The medicine works. And that's the bottom line, right?