Baclofen: a 2-year observational study of 100 patients just published

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Baclofen: a 2-year observational study of 100 patients just published

I have no idea what the point of the link is, and unless you feel it's important, I don't really have time to read it all trying to figure it out. The point you were making (I think?) about what I posted is exactly my point about the study.

Irony, again!

If you read the information at Frontiers (as I did) you will see how papers are reviewed. It's very cool, because they post papers, and basically leave it to the online community to decide the value. So yes, it was reviewed to meet certain standards. But not the way research is reviewed in the traditional sense.

However, I realized I might have misunderstood what was written. 58 people stopped taking baclofen. 45 people discontinued treatment. Those are two different things. The numbers still don't make that much sense but I thought I'd offer that up as an explanation for that discrepancy.

My pre-dawn thought was to simply write Dr. de Beaurepaire and ask him the questions I have about the study. I don't know that I'll do that, but I bet he'd answer. (Especially if the letter happened to be in French.)

Cheers Colin. Hope it's a good day.

[Otter]

Baclofen: a 2-year observational study of 100 patients just published

Ne/Neva Eva;1447944 wrote: There were only 42 or 55 people that were compliant at the end of the study. (There are two numbers there. One says that 45 people stopped taking bac. The other says that 58 people stopped taking bac.)

The number of patients who discontinued baclofen for whatever reason came to 25 at 6 months, 51 at 12 months, and 58 at 24 months.

and a little later in the paper,

At 2 years, 45 patients had stopped their treatment

, and this concerned all patients in the “at high risk” group, 10 out of 12 in the “at medium risk” group, and 10 (20%) in the “at low risk” group.

The rest of the numbers are off, too.

I did a little bit of due diligence about who reviewed the article, and how articles are reviewed on Frontiers. It's fascinating! But it's also not a peer reviewed journal. And there is no way that this study would or could stand up to any scrutiny at all. There's no scientific method. It's very likely a reflection of the fact that the person who wrote it isn't a researcher or something. And maybe some of the confusion is in the translation.

Addolorato, who has my utmost respect and seems to be a really legitimate guy, has a vested interest in baclofen.
Liu and one other read it. Doesn't mean they approved of or endorsed it.

It's good news. We know that bac works. I know that bac works. But I was disappointed in this article. Still, it is good news. But beware, please of any article anywhere about anything that promises these kind of results. It's bad for people. It's bad for bac. And it's bad for any attempt at finding some sort of legitimacy for alcoholism treatment based on science. In my opinion.

I am absolutely floored by this post. Dr. de Beaurepaire is a senior doctor at a university hospital in Paris and he, together with other senior addictions doctors treated 1500 patients and then published the Prescribing Guidelines. After that, the French association for alcoholism issued and advisory that all doctors in France use baclofen "off licence" for alcoholism and there are now two trials on baclofen for alcoholism in France, supported by pharmaceutical companies.

Adolorratto started the baclofen studies. He has a vested interest???

Don't get worked up about this??????

Where does this meagreness of spirit come from that people should still timidly accept that this is all just some sort of chimera?

Off-licence baclofen is a legal and useful treatment for anyone with an addiction, particularly alcoholism. Every medical code of conduct in the world says that doctors must study treatments and use them if patients could benefit from them and the benefits outweigh the risks.

That is the medical, legal and scientific starting point. All the "double blind" trial evidence is only "necessary" to get a drug licenced, not to get it legal for use. Baclofen is already legal for use and should be used by any doctor who does his research, understands the science behind it and appreciates both the horrific effects on his patient and their family of alcoholism and understands the way in which to prescribe baclofen with minimal, transient side effects.

Even if double blind trials result in baclofen being an "on licence" treatment for alcoholism, so what? Does that mean a doctor who doesn't presently treat alcoholism as an illness changes his view, that it is not an exercise of will power, and starts prescribing. I doubt it.

It is only by changing attitudes towards alcoholism as an illness, not a moral choice, that we will get anywhere and the only way to change attitudes is through education and pressure.

You say Frontiers in Psychiatry is not peer reviewed. Look at the board of editors: Frontiers in Addictive Disorders & Behavioral Dyscontrol | Editorial Board

Maybe I should ask them to publish something. lol

They include Addolorato an Legio. Seriously, these are the top people in addictions today. Legio is heading the NIH study. Not peer reviewed?? Are you waging a campaign of disinformation? Of course it is peer reviewed. Peer review doesn't mean they agree with it. That is censorship, not review.

[Colin]

Baclofen: a 2-year observational study of 100 patients just published

Ne/Neva Eva;1448215 wrote:
Irony, again!

More than just irony. The full range of Juvenal satire is not infrequently appropriate.

Litotes can be fun as in this example from wordnik:-
"I'm not obscenely uneducated, but I had to look up "litotes".” Canadian Cynic: Steve Janke and dead, sodomized hookers? Hey, I'm just sayin'.

Like flying in under the enemy radar, fucking all their wives and getting back home before anybody noticed anything slightly untoward.

[Cinders]

Baclofen: a 2-year observational study of 100 patients just published

This sort of angry dialogue is in no way helpful for those who are new and looking for a cure from Baclofen.

On the contrary, quite off putting.

Disagreements can be handled in polite ways.

As far as the study goes, it is very heartening to hear such good results.

Other conventional treatments do not have anywhere near this percentage of positive results.

Cindi

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Baclofen: a 2-year observational study of 100 patients just published

Colin, I think we've already established that I can be rather obtuse when you are being particularly esoteric. I have no idea what point you are trying to make, but I am more than happy to engage in some sort of dialogue if that is your intent. I really hope that it doesn't include more links to random stuff because I really am very short on time these days.

Otter, I think we have pretty well established that I don't believe that baclofen is a chimera. Baclofen works. I champion baclofen. I champion information about baclofen.

Nor do I think that alcoholism is some sort of moral issue. I know you know this about me. So I'm not really sure what point I am supposed to be addressing in your post, though it seems written in my general direction.

All that said, I've done your work for you and I'm about to make your point. Dr. de Beaurepaire has written or participated in 54 published articles. They have been published in the following journals Neuropsychopharmacology, Psychiatry, Molecular Psychiatry, etc.

I won't bore you with the entire review process at Frontiers but the short version is that they are peer reviewed "to ensure that studies are conducted in agreement with the standards of the specific community and to improve the quality of the paper where appropriate." It seems this process includes verifying accuracy and method.

Clearly I am off base with some of my criticism (or rather my assumptions) about this paper. You'll have to just accept that I was doing my best with my limited knowledge and the time allotted.

And that said, gentlemen, I stand by my concerns related to the study. The numbers don't match up. There must be an explanation. Maybe I'm just missing something. So perhaps rather than attacking with snarky commentary related to my intelligence, or acting defensively as though I am some sort of 12-step alcoholic apologist (apologies to those that have found their way out with the 12 steps) perhaps you can get off your proper British duffs and find some answers.

And then we can have an enlightened and enlightening discussion about it.

Or we could just bicker amongst ourselves and wait for the trolls to arrive. Nothing more fun then having to justify taking a medication for an illness to someone who is still actively drinking but swears that we should just "pray the drink away."

All the while someone out there is drinking themselves silly looking for answers.

I'm very glad that you're taking it where you are taking it, Otter. And thankful for your perseverance. I'm taking more of a one-on-one approach though, and I can tell you that this place used to be a font of wisdom and wit and a great resource. People found out about bac, took the damn pills and got sober. The more we battle, or even bicker, the more this place becomes a desert. You know it. So let's not do it anymore.

Cheers.

[Otter]

Baclofen: a 2-year observational study of 100 patients just published

I just found the post odd considering your commitment to the cause.

[Colin]

Baclofen: a 2-year observational study of 100 patients just published

Ne/Neva Eva;1448685 wrote:
Otter, I think we have pretty well established that I don't believe that baclofen is a chimera.

The Chimera (also Chimaera or Chim?ra) (pron.: /kɨˈmɪərə/ or /kaɪˈmɪərə/; Greek: Χίμαιρα, Khimaira, from χίμαρος, khimaros, "she-goat") was, according to Greek mythology, a monstrous fire-breathing female creature of Lycia in Asia Minor, composed of the parts of three animals: a lion, a serpent and a goat.

Well, I am glad to know that and there I was thinking I would need some help on this.

Now that we have cleared up that point the next question is -
Which MWOer most resembles a chimera?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Baclofen: a 2-year observational study of 100 patients just published

I thought it an odd metaphor too Colin. But decided to just be respectful and go with it. If you have decided that discussion is not valid or valuable I am more than happy spend my time elsewhere.

Hope it's a good day for you.

[redhead77]

Baclofen: a 2-year observational study of 100 patients just published

Colin;1449142 wrote: The Chimera (also Chimaera or Chim?ra) (pron.: /kɨˈmɪərə/ or /kaɪˈmɪərə/; Greek: Χίμαιρα, Khimaira, from χίμαρος, khimaros, "she-goat") was, according to Greek mythology, a monstrous fire-breathing female creature of Lycia in Asia Minor, composed of the parts of three animals: a lion, a serpent and a goat.

Well, I am glad to know that and there I was thinking I would need some help on this.

Now that we have cleared up that point the next question is -
Which MWOer most resembles a chimera?

Me??? But, only when I eat gluten.

[Otter]

Baclofen: a 2-year observational study of 100 patients just published

Colin;1449142 wrote: The Chimera (also Chimaera or Chim?ra) (pron.: /kɨˈmɪərə/ or /kaɪˈmɪərə/; Greek: Χίμαιρα, Khimaira, from χίμαρος, khimaros, "she-goat") was, according to Greek mythology, a monstrous fire-breathing female creature of Lycia in Asia Minor, composed of the parts of three animals: a lion, a serpent and a goat.

Well, I am glad to know that and there I was thinking I would need some help on this.

Now that we have cleared up that point the next question is -
Which MWOer most resembles a chimera?

Oh dear!

Must I explain everything around here?


chi?me?ra also chi?mae?ra (k-m?r, k-)
n.
...
3. A fanciful mental illusion or fabrication.

[joanna_d]

Baclofen: a 2-year observational study of 100 patients just published

i'm writing an informational email about baclofen for alcoholism to some addiction carers, a psychiatrist and more, so i'm trying to find as much useful information i can, to either attach it to the email (prescribing guide for instance) or use it in my writing (making references to the articles).

i've got the prescribing guide, the 2-year observational study of 100 patients (Frontiers) and some articles explaining the workings of GABA-b (also on this: if you know good articles, please let me know), but the more info i have, the better.

any suggestions?

EDIT: i'm dutch, and want to write (in dutch) a comprehensible introduction to baclofen for alcoholism, so altough detailed stories on trials are of course important, they're not of much use to me in this case (not to mention: i'm not a physiologist!!)

[Xadrian]

Baclofen: a 2-year observational study of 100 patients just published

joanna_d;1473859 wrote: i'm writing an informational email about baclofen for alcoholism to some addiction carers, a psychiatrist and more, so i'm trying to find as much useful information i can, to either attach it to the email (prescribing guide for instance) or use it in my writing (making references to the articles).

i've got the prescribing guide, the 2-year observational study of 100 patients (Frontiers) and some articles explaining the workings of GABA-b (also on this: if you know good articles, please let me know), but the more info i have, the better.

any suggestions?

EDIT: i'm dutch, and want to write (in dutch) a comprehensible introduction to baclofen for alcoholism, so altough detailed stories on trials are of course important, they're not of much use to me in this case (not to mention: i'm not a physiologist!!)

You can find some links (also in Dutch) on "my" thread. Maybe they can be useful.

[joanna_d]

Baclofen: a 2-year observational study of 100 patients just published

thanks X! i prsume you mean this post?
i'm cruising threads to find info, but you know, there's so much info in all the threads that it can be a hell of a job to find the linx to articles inside them.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Baclofen: a 2-year observational study of 100 patients just published

Addolorato 2011: Effects of bac at 60mg/day
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21414953

It's a really good one because it compares the efficacy of 60mg to 30mg. 60mg, not surprisingly, shows better (and not unimpressive) results.

There are several others, but the science isn't great, or they are simple case studies. Never the less, they're pretty compelling.

Also Terryk has links in his signature. Those are definitely worth checking out! And in one of his most recent posts he lists a whole lot of stuff related to the efficacy of bac. It's on the "How does bac work" thread. I'm outta time, but will be back later.

If you feel like you can't find enough, or are missing something, post again or send me an email.
I'm working on doing the same thing in my little part of the world!
Rock on!
:l

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Baclofen: a 2-year observational study of 100 patients just published

And, it might be worth it to get the whole article. If you can't, I can send it to you.

Any chance you can get me the Dutch stuff in English if you think it's worth it?

Dank je!

(I've got to brush up on my Dutch, because Ed and I are thinking of a trip to Amsterdam for our anniversary. Pretty cool, huh? Fancy a cup of coffee? It's there or Costa Rica/Nicaragua. So far, the jungle is winning, but we'll see. anyhoo. Back to the topic at hand!)