Baclofen Petition

[Otter]

Baclofen Petition

Ne/Neva Eva;1434986 wrote: And for goodness sakes, can't you find anything better to watch on Youtube? Holy cow, I am so glad to be rid of that woman. I can't imagine watching another minute of her or about her!

Of course, there is plenty to watch and be annoyed/disgusted by at the moment. Ed and I have been talking about which Scandinavian country we are most likely to be able to get into. I can't imagine living without a super-sized fridge and 1600 square feet though. Perhaps a banana republic?

(And please don't take that the wrong way, Americans. I love living here. I also like making fun of us. Chillax. )

Hey, we don't get Letterman here. I have no choice. The UK is blessed? with TV news programs which reports what happens in soap operas as news. We have morning "news" programs which go over the soap plots and show the latest fashion. It is not the done thing to engage in hard hitting debate here. It is not the "done" thing. The English are more concerned with keeping up appearances than sorting out real medical issues like alcoholism.

Don't move to Scandinavia. It's cold and dark. Europe is generally a write off. I have a dream of having some sort of job where I spend the summers in Sweden and the winters in Argentina. I met a lifeguard in Spain who did that.

I am all for the power of people helping themselves and this forum. I can't help getting angry at the stupidity of doctors I have had to suffer over the past several years. This is a serious illness and just letting it shuffle along while people qualify as counsellors etc and that is going to change the world is an example of delusional thinking.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Baclofen Petition

How on earth did something that we can mostly agree on (that the system does not work for the treatment of alcoholics and that the medical professionals have little or no information about what treatment should look like) turn into an argument?

Come on, JC. Otter wasn't insulting your family. The system sucks. We each do what we can. And venting about it should be okay. (should he have said, "Hey! Don't be offended Brits! I'm just venting about this! And looking for solutions!" I felt silly for writing what I did but I know there are many people who might be offended simply because I joked about leaving the country. Come on! Lighten up people!!! *sheesh*)

Otter, give it a rest. We know you've been through hell. We know you're just trying to make a suggestion as to how to get this done. And for goodness sakes, a rant is alright.

It is absurd. This is absurd.

Chillax. Please. Why can't we all just get along?

[Otter]

Baclofen Petition

JackieClaire;1434998 wrote: They're called A levels here, the UK education is streets ahead, hun.

Aw, honey, you go on believing that! If it makes you feel better, but it doesn't make it so. I know one big London comprehensive which lost so many students that there were 8 students in the final year, yes, folks 6 graduates. 6. I'll say it again, 6. Mind boggling.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Baclofen Petition

Otter, watch some John Stewart. That should help you feel a bit better about what passes for news. Here, there, just about everywhere. Talk about absurd!

[Otter]

Baclofen Petition

I did. I watched his Rumble in the Air conditioned Auditorium. What a laugh. I only discovered this a few days ago. I miss Letterman. I used to get cable from Buffalo. We are starting to get some programming. I think living here for so long has numbed me to reality. I found it quite hard to deal with seeing it again, like stepping out into the sun after living in a cave for 20 years.

[JackieClaire]

Baclofen Petition

Ne, love I was using people I know the closest and have seen them training long and hard, they just happen to be family. We've also got a dentist, barrister,heroin addict, couple of nurses, a lawyer, a butcher, baker and candlestick maker. It's a big family.

It's the insults to the Brit Medical profession I object to. God if you read anything that Otter wrote about the medical profession in the UK would you see a doctor here?

[Otter]

Baclofen Petition

JackieClaire,

Please put me on ignore if you don't like what I say. And don't swear at me. I didn't swear at you. I am as "English" as you are and have every right to speak. This is my thread so you leave and take your foul mouth with you and your attitude too.

[Otter]

Baclofen Petition

My grandfather served on HMS Warspite during the Battle of Jutland when it was it 15 times before heading directly for the German fleet with only one gun operating. It was the "greatest battleship" that ever sailed, serving in all arenas in both wars. It had a mind of its own and when being towed to be scrapped it broke free and grounded of Saint Michael's Mount, one of the most beautiful spots you could ever want to end up in. I thought I would post this poem instead of the silly post I put before. I think of this ship because it was damaged, ran aground, ran into its own sister ships several times and generally had a steering problem so it never went where it was supposed to but eventually became known as "The Grand Old Lady". It is a bit like this forum. We keep on going, sometimes annoying each other, making mistakes, but the thing is to just keep going. There is no point to doing anything unless you to it to the best of your ability and with all your heart.

I found this poem about Warspite...
Its called "The Subject" by Lieutenant-Commander R.A.B.Mitchell

You say you have no subject
And your brushes all have dried;
But come to Marazion
At the ebbing of the tide.
And look you out to seaward,
Where my Lady battle scarred
Hugs the rock that is more welcome,
Than the shameful breakers yard.
Paint her there upon the sunset
In her glory and despair,
With the diadem of victory
Still in flower upon her hair.
Let her whisper as she settles
Of her blooding long ago,
In the mist than mingles Jutland
With the might of Scapa Flow.
Let her tell you, too, of Narvick
With its snowy hills, and then
Of Matapan, Salerno
And the shoals of Walcheren;
And finally of Malta,
When along the purple street
Came in trail the Roman Navy
To surrender at her feet.
Of all these honours conscious,
How could she bear to be
Delivered to the spoiler
Or severed from the sea ?
So hasten then and paint her
In the last flush of her pride
On the rocks of Marazion,
At the ebbing of the tide.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Baclofen Petition

I could swap some real life stories about treatment 'round these parts, too. It's a very difficult disease and there isn't a medical system in the world that doesn't screw it up. Not one.

I gotta run! Be gentle with each other. We're all in the same boat, you know.
:l

[JackieClaire]

Baclofen Petition

Otter;1435009 wrote: JackieClaire,

Please put me on ignore if you don't like what I say. And don't swear at me. I didn't swear at you. I am as "English" as you are and have every right to speak. This is my thread so you leave and take your foul mouth with you and your attitude too.

Just who do you think you are?

Tell you something you're not a gentleman.

[RedThread12]

Baclofen Petition

Otter, may I hi-jack your thread for just a sec? I want to respond to something Ne posted quite a bit earlier about the "harm-reduction" clinic in Vancouver. Brilliant guy, they director there - Gabor Mate. He was in my city giving a day-long workshop thingy, so I went to listen to him. I had heard a couple of interviews, and read his book on addiction, "In the Land of Hungry Ghosts." IMO appears to have the best grasp on addiction of anyone working in the field, "professionally."

So I waited in line for a while to get a chance to talk to him. Of course, I asked him if he was aware of baclofen, and its effects on alcoholism and other addictions (he's a self-confessed classic music-aholic, just like Dr. Ameisen). He kind of mumbled something about having heard about it, but not really knowing anything. I told him, straightforwardly, that it had ended my alcoholism. He said, "that's great." End of conversation.

So, IMHO, no country has a monopoly on close-minded physicians, nor dysfunctional addiction treatment protocols and uninformed professionals. Even this guy, who could be helping people quit doing drugs instead of just helping them do them more safely. OK, that's it. Back to you, Otter.

[Otter]

Baclofen Petition

RedThread12;1435045 wrote: Otter, may I hi-jack your thread for just a sec? I want to respond to something Ne posted quite a bit earlier about the "harm-reduction" clinic in Vancouver. Brilliant guy, they director there - Gabor Mate. He was in my city giving a day-long workshop thingy, so I went to listen to him. I had heard a couple of interviews, and read his book on addiction, "In the Land of Hungry Ghosts." IMO appears to have the best grasp on addiction of anyone working in the field, "professionally."

So I waited in line for a while to get a chance to talk to him. Of course, I asked him if he was aware of baclofen, and its effects on alcoholism and other addictions (he's a self-confessed classic music-aholic, just like Dr. Ameisen). He kind of mumbled something about having heard about it, but not really knowing anything. I told him, straightforwardly, that it had ended my alcoholism. He said, "that's great." End of conversation.

So, IMHO, no country has a monopoly on close-minded physicians, nor dysfunctional addiction treatment protocols and uninformed professionals. Even this guy, who could be helping people quit doing drugs instead of just helping them do them more safely. OK, that's it. Back to you, Otter.

I'll look that up.

I agree. I am not saying that doctors in one country or another are better or worse and it is besides the point. The issue here is that this whole baclofen debate, problem, call it what you want, revolves around the fact that doctors are not engaging in it, everywhere except France where 10,000 people were using it a year or so ago and who knows how many now.

I think each country has its issues. The US has big medical problems with high insurance but that doesn't mean the doctors are not good. Canada has well trained doctors and a medicare system and spends on health care. We just got back from Brussels and a hospital in Vilvoort which was immaculate and the treatment was great.

The UK has social health care but the doctors are under trained in comparison to North American standards where a pre med qualification is needed. It comes across when you speak to doctors that they just don't have the scientific background. I don't necessarily say that is why baclofen isn't being taken up. They do what their primary care trusts tell them to do in terms of medication and when they adopt something they do it across the board. I knew doctors in the west of England where I practiced who were very bright, intelliigent etc etc. Jackie here is getting her nickers in a twist because the English have this thing about being polite which they put above all things even if people are dieing around them. Ooops, your granny just died because we plugged in the wrong drip. Chin up, pip pip and for god's sake don't get upset because that is worse than killing granny.

My view is that there is something about alcoholism which causes a reaction in people whether they are doctors or whatever. People have a deep seated animosity towards sufferers of this ailment because they view it as a product of lack of will power. It is seen as a choice and the sufferers get what they deserve. The idea of it being an exercise of "free will" makes it very difficult to deal with when so many people are bound up in religions, philosophies and psychological theories which are founded on this concept.

[Xadrian]

Baclofen Petition

Otter;1434887 wrote: I understand the Amsterdam trial never got off the ground.

I sent professor Wiers of the University of Amsterdam an e-mail, on which he replied almost immediately:

The research is still going on. Preparations (ethical committee, fabrication of placebo, etc.) took some time. He expects to be able to publish results in approximately 1 1/2 years.

[Otter]

Baclofen Petition

Xadrian;1435208 wrote: I sent professor Wiers of the University of Amsterdam an e-mail, on which he replied almost immediately:

The research is still going on. Preparations (ethical committee, fabrication of placebo, etc.) took some time. He expects to be able to publish results in approximately 1 1/2 years.

That is good to hear although it is a long time off. I expect the French study will be concluded before then.

[Otter]

Baclofen Petition

Why thanks, that is very kind.

I still think a petition might be a way forward with this. Maybe draft up a hard hitting statement and then post in on the site. I am sure newspapers review it all the time. The one on gun control has been in the press. And there has been at least one person here who has so many different persona we could probably make it to the required numbers fairly easily.