Diver's TSM and Baclofen Journey ... ???

[Juan BH]

Diver's TSM and Baclofen Journey ... ???

Awesome news Diver! I have been wondering what your status was. I am not indifferent yet, but it's close for sure.

I talked to Dr. Levin a couple of weeks ago and he explained that Dr. A eventually became "interested in alcohol again" while at a lower maintenance dose. He made a full recovery after increasing the dose again I assume, because (according to Dr. L) they now agree that people should stay at their indifference dose permanently, after the "switch" happens.

A lot of folks disagree that this is necessary and hopefully they will weigh in soon. I for one, do not want to remain at a high dose indefinitely.

I read an interesting post on another forum (baclofenforalcoholism.com) by D1chotomy in the "Who we are" section. His avatar was Bminor when he was active here on MWO. He chose to be abstinient about 2 years ago and stopped taking baclofen regularly. I guess he takes it once in a while for anxiety, but that's all. That sounds like the ideal situation to me, but abstinence may not be your goal.

Congratulations and thanks for keeping us posted!

Oh one question - are you still practicing TSM when you do drink?

[bleep]

Diver's TSM and Baclofen Journey ... ???

Good to hear Diver!

Staying at your dose is a tricky one, and you will have to find through experimentation whether you can decrease. You will soon know whether or not it is possible.

The SE's should begin to diminish once you are stable for a while.

[Cassander]

Diver's TSM and Baclofen Journey ... ???

Diver;1509016 wrote: The truly great news is that I have hit my SWITCH!!! :finger: U Alcohol

...

Great news, Diver! You know...baclofen works...damn! Its the truth.

[Diver]

Diver's TSM and Baclofen Journey ... ???

Thank you all for your replies, Baclofen definately works. In less than 5 months it has freed me from over 30 years of binging and blacking out.

Juan, Yes I am still following TSM when I drink. I stopped taking naltrexone for a while, about mid-way through my journey, however I saw my units starting to climb way up. So since I still had a good supply of nal I decided it wouldn't hurt to continue taking it.

I dropped down to 320 mgs yesterday and will take 320 mgs again today. I titrated up rather quickly, but plan on going down very slowly.

If there is anyone else who is willing to add their thoughts on how to find one's maintenance dose, I would love to hear your input. I really hope that I can maintain this indifference at a lower dose because being at 330 has been tough.

:thanks:

[Sticky]

Diver's TSM and Baclofen Journey ... ???

Hi Diver

Congratulations on hitting your switch!

Unfortunately I don't have any advice. Had to come down from 210 b/c of SE's and binged again at 120. Will try 150 but may have to go way up. Not sure if I or my family will tolerate that.

All the best.

Sticky :goodjob:

[joethelion]

Diver's TSM and Baclofen Journey ... ???

Congatulations Diver, it's great to see how bac and nal continue to save lives !!

I would say never stop nal though; I also failed taking it every once in a while (when I was planning to drink a lot - because the hangovers are simply the worst that can be) and I started having cravings after several times.

About the side effects; I am down to 30mg (from a max of 80) and I still feel them. Actually 80 and 40 didn't have any difference for me. I can't compare with higher dosages though. And, yes, even 30mgs help a lot still!

[MaryGoRound]

Diver's TSM and Baclofen Journey ... ???

I can't give great advice about finding a maintenance dose because I am in the same stage you are in. I am down 30 mgs from my switch one month ago at 230 (I did go up to 240 for 3 days just to kill some lingering feelings).

You can probably come off your current dose safety, especially if the SEs are hurting and your indifference is in secure, by 15% over a few drops and then stay there for a bit (full disclosure: I totally made the percentage up!) If Bleep is right, and he does have excellent experience, then you need at least 4 days to fully notice a change in dosing on drinking behavior. From there it is all experience.

I have also noticed when people go down too quickly they get severe depression or anxiety. Once it happens it is hard to correct.

It is recommended to stay at the switch dose as long as 2-3 months. Dr. L says stay there forever. The real world needs to be taken into consideration. "They say" the maintenance dose is a 2/3 to 1/3 of the switch dose (please someone correct me if that is wrong).

My only secure suggestion is to be totally honest with yourself. If you notice a change in thoughts or patterns in regard to alcohol at lower doses then go back up for a bit. You do not want to have to go through the entire titration again!

[Diver]

Diver's TSM and Baclofen Journey ... ???

Bad day yesterday! I woke up early with tremors and praying to the porcelain god for two hours. My wife completely freaked out and insisted that I go to the emergency room. I told the bitch doctor that I thought that it was from the Baclofen and she asked why I was taking it. When I mentioned alcohol her personality immediately changed to bitchy. She ordered an antivan IV and didn't bother coming back into the room.
When I was released she gave me orders to go to a Detox center. I wanted to skip it but my wife was insistent. They were familiar with the use of baclofen for cravings which immediately made me feel better. They offered me inpatient to tritrate down, outpatient with daily visits or private doctor.

I am due to travel tomorrow on business so basically all of the options are out. I need to titrate down on my own. Of course my wife is terrified with the idea.

My dose yesterday was 330 and I had been at that for close to two weeks. Yesterday I only had one dose before going to be of 60 and I took another 60 this morning. I am not having any withdrawal symptoms now.

I am wondering if I try to take it down to 3x60 today and see how I react and if I start to exhibit signs of withdrawal up my dose?

My second question is how long before I should expect to see signs of withdrawal?

lease:

[john doe]

Diver's TSM and Baclofen Journey ... ???

Diver don't take anything I say as advice but because of stupidity in not having a supply on hand I've when from 275 (and 300 2 nights) down to 100 in the space of a week. I'd no other choose but did have Valium on hand in case I hit some trouble with seizures of some sort. Thankfully I've been ok.

Now I went from 0 to 300 in a month so maybe that was my saying grace. If I'd have had let my body become accustomed to bac over a lot longer it might have been a whole lot different.

I've been through some scary experiences with drug abuse over the years and I had 1 or 2 nights where I was in a bit of a panic.

[Diver]

Diver's TSM and Baclofen Journey ... ???

John Doe

Thanks for the quick response. I do have some xanax and libirum so I do have those if I run into any serious issues. I am hoping that I don't need to resort to using them. Especially since I am traveling on business tomorrow!

[YouKayBee]

Diver's TSM and Baclofen Journey ... ???

I found it took about 48 hours for changes in dose to become apparent when tapering off, but popping another say half a dose (not enough to ruin the taper but enough to prevent the withdrawl) fixed it pretty quickly.

[Diver]

Diver's TSM and Baclofen Journey ... ???

UK
Thanks for your input as you can see I am in a desperate situation.

[terryk]

Diver's TSM and Baclofen Journey ... ???

Diver;1517619 wrote: Bad day yesterday! I woke up early with tremors and praying to the porcelain god for two hours. My wife completely freaked out and insisted that I go to the emergency room. I told the bitch doctor that I thought that it was from the Baclofen and she asked why I was taking it. When I mentioned alcohol her personality immediately changed to bitchy. She ordered an antivan IV and didn't bother coming back into the room.
When I was released she gave me orders to go to a Detox center. I wanted to skip it but my wife was insistent. They were familiar with the use of baclofen for cravings which immediately made me feel better. They offered me inpatient to tritrate down, outpatient with daily visits or private doctor.

I am due to travel tomorrow on business so basically all of the options are out. I need to titrate down on my own. Of course my wife is terrified with the idea.

My dose yesterday was 330 and I had been at that for close to two weeks. Yesterday I only had one dose before going to be of 60 and I took another 60 this morning. I am not having any withdrawal symptoms now.

I am wondering if I try to take it down to 3x60 today and see how I react and if I start to exhibit signs of withdrawal up my dose?

My second question is how long before I should expect to see signs of withdrawal?

lease:

According to the medical literature, tolerance to baclofen builds after (about) 2 months. While some folks here have described titrating up to high dose and back down in a short period with little consequence, most of us who have been taking baclofen for longer than a few weeks can expect withdrawal symptoms from abrupt cessation (or too rapid downward titration). The severity and time until the onset (usually 24 to 72 hours) of symptoms will depend on the dose, the duration of dosing, and the body chemistry of the individual in question.



My experience with withdrawal:

1) More than 3 years ago, during my titration, I went from 150mg/day to 235mg/day+ in 24 hours and wound up in the hospital (you can read about it if you follow the "1 year" link in my sig below). In the ER, one doctor told me high dose baclofen "was poisonous," admitted me to inpatient care and restricted my baclofen to 80mg/day (after neglecting to give me any for 24 hours). I was given all of the lorazepam I wanted (maybe up to 2mg a day IIRC?), but only 80mg of bac. My anxiety was largely kept at bay (for a while), but I began to have increasing visual hallucinations after 2-3 days (I saw my little dog was running around the perimeter of my bed and then flies and birds swarming around the room). I had my girlfriend smuggle me in more of my own baclofen to take with the 80 I was being given, was eventually released from the hospital, finally stabilized after maybe 2 weeks, then made a tough decision to continue titrating back up, and then found my switch at 280 3 months later.

2) Titrating down from 280. I can go down 20mg in one week and then level off for a good while. 40mg in 2 weeks and I get panic attacks at the end of the second week. I'm good today at 180.



Titrating down no more than 10mg/week is the golden rule and pretty much the only advice I'll give about taking baclofen.


I believe that 330 to 180 in a day is a recipe for disaster. And GABAa agents like benzos cannot entirely combat withdrawal from GABAb agents (according to the literature and my experience). I'm sure I've posted links to the journal articles here before.


Lastly, what exactly were the circumstances of your recent sickness? Is it baclofen alone? Was alcohol involved? Any other illness?

Anyway, I'm sorry that you're having problems. And I'll be around to try and help you with more info if I can. Good luck, tk

EDIT: I don't mean to scare anyone with this information. Baclofen is a safe drug, and it's safety at high dose has been confirmed (see below). That said, taking baclofen is serious business, and there can be serious consequences if it is not used responsibly.

[bleep]

Diver's TSM and Baclofen Journey ... ???

Shit diver, sounds grim. You don't say why you think it is baclofen causing this?

To answer you serious question first, baclofen withdrawal will take about 48 hours in manifest, and can be delayed or removed by administering more baclofen.

I have gone from 400 to 100, and remained on 100, without major SE's, so you should be okay (whether that applies to anyone else, I can't say, and wouldn't recommend) - I would be very cautious about stopping it entirely though. For that you really want to consider a taper of sorts.

[bleep]

Diver's TSM and Baclofen Journey ... ???

I posted a message here, and then read terryk's post, so I have deleted mine, based on what I read in tk's post.

Hope it turns out ok Diver, please let us know.

You don't mention why you think baclofen was responsible for you feeling sick? You can't stop taking it abruptly, even it is, unfortunately. You will have to taper slowly.