New Here, My Baclofen Diary

[SuperBinger]

New Here, My Baclofen Diary

Day 52
Baclofen 30-30-30 = 90mg
Exercise = None (chores at home)
Alcohol = 6 units

Worked doing some plumbing today, so had to get down on the floor on my back a lot. VERY dizzy doing this. The baclofen + AL hangover is a drag. It is not enough to stop me functioning, but it is no fun being in a fog, and dizzy whenever I lie down.

Day 53
Baclofen 30-30-30 = 90mg
Exercise = Jog .5 miles and walk 1.5 miles (first jog on my iffy left calf injured last week -- no problem today)
Alcohol = AF

My alcohol intake per week is way down, for which I am glad. However, I'm not myself -- I seem to be perpetually foggy, or lethargic. This has to be the baclofen, because pre-bac, if I could string together a couple AF days, I would feel better than great. My new normal seems to be a general, all-the-time "blah" feeling (as opposed to the intense somnolence, which I don't get too often anymore). I occasionally question whether baclofen is worth it, but just thinking back to a couple months ago and the copious amounts of wine I was drinking and how terrible I felt afterward is enough to motivate me to JKTTP.

SB

[Ne/Neva Eva]

New Here, My Baclofen Diary

Oh I understand that debate! I'm sure it's a wonderful feeling to compare the before and after, but the real surprise is when the after is indifference. The SEs suck, and it's hard to muddle through, but if you kttp and get to the other side of indifference, you will not regret one single moment of what it took to get there. At least that was my experience.

I never really believed it would or could happen, so I thought I'd pop into your world and assure you it can and will.

Congrats on the AF time, SB!

[joanna_d]

New Here, My Baclofen Diary

hi SB, and sorry for the late welcome (so: welcome!)

another article that might be very useful for you and your doctor to read, is the baclofen prescribing guide for doctors

it explains the way to reach the switch dose (of which i'd like to stress that the speed in which you go up with bac is different for everyone, and should be regarded with care. no need to rush things), and then after some time after having switched (= having reached indifference, for me preceded by a thorough aversion to alcohol) lowering the dose to find your maintenance dose.
also: criteria as well as reasons for doctors to prescibe medicines like baclofen off label.
EDIT about those criteria stating "prescribe baclofen when all else has failed". my god, if i'd been spared all the time, energy and growing desperation trying every treatment in the (official) book before i tried something by myself that wasn't in that book...
i'd certanly wish for everyone else struggling with alcoholism not having to go through that whole routine, but having baclofen as an option way earlier.

and about se's and (barely) handling them: this is a cure. if you'd undergo a cure for cancer, or another life treathening disease, how would you regard side effects? my guess is you'd regard yourself with care and patience while encountering them, and regard them as part of the deal. however much they'd suck. (credits to Ne )
while people tend to disregard this more or less while in the process, alcoholism is a life treathening disease. not only does it wreck your body (mentally & phisically) on long term, it wrecks your life on a daily basis.

hang in there! and happy to hear you've got AF days as well.
baclofen paired with alcohol = brain fuck raised to a square.

[MaryGoRound]

New Here, My Baclofen Diary

SB

I have the same thoughts about the blahs with Bac. It probably is a SE of the medication. I have been exercising like crazy lately but I do not get the "runners high." I also do not the "I feel great" feeling I use to have when I put together AF days.

One thing I noticed on Bac is when I do drink I get very depressed the next day. Sometimes that leads to another day of drinking to get rid of the depressed feeling. For me, the depression and Bac are related. I know that alcohol is a depressant but the Bac and drinking make the depression noticeably worse for me.

Since it is equally (no much more depressing) to be an alcoholic I am keeping the course with the Bac but I am taking the abstinence approach much more seriously. One of the great things about the stories of Bac and recovery is there should be no quilt if you continue to drink while taking the Bac because it will eventually work. I believe that to be true but I want to make the road easier. At some point, you can go down and many have talked about the SEs going way down.

[SuperBinger]

New Here, My Baclofen Diary

Day 54
Baclofen 30-30-30 = 90mg
Exercise = Walk 5 miles, weights
Alcohol = AF

Day 55
Baclofen 30-30-40 = 100mg
Exercise = Jog .66 mile Calf cramped up again. So annoying -- it is clear I cannot jog until this is completely healed. We take a few weeks off from jogging and do more walking and research how to strengthen the soleus. It is hell to get old. Was still able to get through swing dance lessons.
Alcohol = 6 units (martinis and glass of wine at frou-frou French place after dance lesson.

Moved up to 100mg baclofen today. Still annoyed but the constant foggy/tired feeling, but the comments to my previous post were encouraging and confirmed what I already know -- That these baclofen side effects are nothing compared to the damage I was doing to my body with my 60+ units of AL per week. It had to stop. Thanks Joannad, MaryGoRound, and Neva/Ne for the encouragement/perspective.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

New Here, My Baclofen Diary

Hi SB!
One of the things to keep in mind (and Mary, too) is that quitting alcohol sucks. Disregard the bac for a moment. If you take a look around at the General Discussion forum, or any of the moderation or abstinence threads, you'll find that some of the SEs may be attributable to the changes the body and mind go through when you're not drinking.

The runner's high, for instance. Even the fogginess and lethargy! All of that is reasonably attributable to the bac, of course. But it's also a bonafide SE of not drinking. And of drinking. Ditto the depression, particularly given the fact that you're trying to quit drinking. This one in particular is well documented in literature, but also in the Newbie and the Need Help areas of the forum.

If you've read anything I've written about my experience, you'll know I'm not suggesting the SEs from bac aren't real and legitimate. But it's easy to underestimate the ill effects of not drinking.

The difference, for me, in quitting with bac and quitting in all the other ways I'd quit before, was substantial. I could not have imagined I would be completely free of the need, much less the desire, to drink. And in all of my attempts at sobriety over the course of ~20 years of trying, I'd never gone 30 days (unless in rehab) without a relapse. It's been 25 months.
Hang in there.

[SuperBinger]

New Here, My Baclofen Diary

Day 56
Baclofen 30-30-40 = 100mg
Exercise = Weights
Alcohol = AF

Day 57
Baclofen 30-30-40 = 100mg
Exercise = Weights
Alcohol = ~7 units
Went to Las Vegas for the weekend and had a martini and glass of wine with dinner, and then two beers at a concert.

Day 58
Baclofen 30-30-40 = 100mg
Exercise = None
Alcohol = 6 units

Advice: Never gamble with a foggy baclofen brain. My basic arithmetic skills were so degraded that I attempted to fold my blackjack hand of Q+7+ 3 (20). Luckily the dealer took pity on me and let me keep my winning hand. The other players were amused.

Day 59
Baclofen 30-40-35 = 105mg
Exercise = None
Alcohol = AF

I attempted to go up to 110mg today, but was so dizzy and fuzzed out after taking my 40mg 2nd dose that I decided to tweak my titration schedule slightly. I have decided to increase by 5mg increments every 5th day instead of by 10mg increments. Also, I have decided to spread out my dosages throughout the day. Starting tomorrow, I will take smaller doses every two hours instead of three large doses every 8 hours.

One of the things to keep in mind (and Mary, too) is that quitting alcohol sucks. Disregard the bac for a moment. If you take a look around at the General Discussion forum, or any of the moderation or abstinence threads, you'll find that some of the SEs may be attributable to the changes the body and mind go through when you're not drinking.

The runner's high, for instance. Even the fogginess and lethargy! All of that is reasonably attributable to the bac, of course. But it's also a bonafide SE of not drinking.

I don't dispute this, but I really don't think it's what is going on with me right now. I did go AF for an entire month (January 2011) and felt just fine, better than great. No depression, physical symptoms. The only thing I suffered with for that month was nightly obsessive thoughts about wanting to pour myself a nice big glass of AL. It was a long month in that regard, but physically and mentally I was tip top. But once Feb. 1 arrived and my one month AF goal was achieved, I was right back off the wagon, cured of my obsessive thoughts of AL, haha.

What I'm experiencing now are, I am 99.9% sure, baclofen side effects. I'm not giving up, but I need to do something to try to mitigate these SEs.

SB

[bleep]

New Here, My Baclofen Diary

Something I found helped was to go up higher when I had spare time. Then, when I needed to, I would reduce to my normal level, and in comparison, it felt much better. It's a strange philosophy, and one that is easily dismissed, but it helps. I'd be interested to see if you try this, and if it does help.

And all of this management of SE's will in 6 months be academic anyway. I'm impressed with the methodical fashion in which you have approached this.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

New Here, My Baclofen Diary

SuperBinger;1482876 wrote:

What I'm experiencing now are, I am 99.9% sure, baclofen side effects. I'm not giving up, but I need to do something to try to mitigate these SEs.

SB

Fair enough.

I agree with bleep, on several counts. Your approach and record keeping are impressive. This is science and medicine, sure enough, but it's also (as bleep has pointed out) magic. (Don't hold me to that. I'll deny having written it.) There might be something to be said for being a bit creative. Such as splitting up your doses. From 8 hours to 2 hours seems a big jump, but if that will work for you... I found taking the pills more frequently lessened the impact, but I hated taking them every two hours. Of course, I'm lousy for remembering to take them even now.

How's your sleep? I wonder if this has much more of an impact than we understand. Baclofen interrupts sleep, for sure. And that can have all kinds of ramifications.

At one point I weighted the doses so that I took more later in the day. I don't know if that will help.
There are other medicines, of course. I would be very wary, very careful. I tend to stick with things that other people here have used successfully, rather than trust a doctor or the information to be found elsewhere.

I also think it is generally a rational idea to plan ahead to take a step back in order to accomplish the goal. It makes sense that thinking about going down a bit before the shit hits the fan might mean that you could avoid that altogether. And it's certainly better than giving up because the SEs have grown unbearable. That can happen rather quickly.

Glad you got to keep some of your money.

[MaryGoRound]

New Here, My Baclofen Diary

First, SB any updates? I love your data sharing. It would be great if you could put the entire experience in a spreadsheet (or are you already doing that)? As an example, I think LoOp did a remarkable job charting his progress.

I am thinking of you and hoping for your success! I send you all the best wishes...

Second, I apologize to all who have provided guidance on how to quote. I filed that in my "to learn" folder and then quickly lost the folder. I will retrace my steps...

On subject, SB you said the following lines earlier in your posts...

"Doc seemed a bit alarmed when I told him that some people require dosages in excess of 300mg/day to reach "the switch," but he continued to listen. He asked me why I couldn't just find my "maintenance dose" and stop there. He seemed to think that just using the baclofen to reduce my intake to a reasonable level should be my final goal. I didn't realize until after the appointment that we were defining "maintenance dose" differently during our conversation. He defines it as the dose at which baclofen reduces cravings to the point that they are manageable and alcohol intake is reduced to a low-risk level. I define it as the minimum dose at which total indifference to alcohol is maintained after having hit "the switch."

I think this point about the switch is very pertinent. I have been having a dialog with my own doctor (the internal MaryGoRound doctor) about reaching a lower level switch point. The conversation has been very unsatisfying. The Mary Doctor has no idea what the patient is trying to do but she is very willing to work with her to find a most satisfying outcome...

Please keep giving updates...it helps Mary's doctor

[SuperBinger]

New Here, My Baclofen Diary

Day 60
Baclofen 20-10-10-10-10-10-10-30 = 110mg
Exercise = None
Alcohol = AF

Side effects, including low energy, unsteadiness walking, dizziness, are becoming intolerable. I am going to drop back to 105mg. The spacing out of the dosages did not seem to help me, though it has been only one day.

Day 61
Baclofen 20-10-10-10-10-10-10-25 = 105mg
Exercise = Weights
Alcohol = AF

Side effects still very difficult. Getting going in the morning is a struggle. Can't focus, dizzy, no energy, tired all the time, unless I can force myself to get up and walk around. This helps a lot. Also had a bizarre incident last night while sleeping. I was awakened abruptly with a mouthful of bile. I had nearly thrown up in bed! I jumped up and went to the bathroom, expecting to vomit, but did not. I had no nausea at all. It was almost as if the baclofen had relaxed my esophagus to the point that my reflux valve opened up and my stomach contents were leaking out. Blech!

I've decided I can't continue with the side effects like this. In addition to all the acute side effects, I'm noticing that my mood is not quite the same. Like a mild depression. Maybe I'm just depressed because I don't feel well physically. But I'm not laughing at MyNameIs's silly jokes, I'm hiding in my cube at work to avoid people, trouble focusing or formulating ideas during meetings, no joie de vivre. This is not me, and I don't like it. And, I am planning to attend the Coachella Music Festival in two weeks. The thought of going to that three day outdoor festival in this condition seems untenable. I have reached a decision: while I still have some time, I am going to titrate down in the hope that I can get the side effects reduced to a manageable level. After the Coachella festival, I will try to titrate back up, SLOWLY.

Important to note: No desire for AL. Whether this is because I know drinking would only make these already awful side effects worse, or because baclofen's filled up my GABAs, I do not know. But if AF is the goal, baclofen is working.

Day 62
Baclofen 30-30-30 = 90mg
Exercise =Weights
Alcohol = AF

The spread out dosages didn't make me feel any better, and Ne was right -- what a pain in the butt to remember to dose every couple hours. So, I'm back to dosing every 8 hours, but at a lower dosage. I'll hold 90mg for 4 days. I felt better today already at 90mg.

Had that weird night-time near-vomit thing again. Both times it happened while I was on my stomach. Very strange -- no nausea, but just being shocked awake by a mouth about to fill with bile.

Day 63
Baclofen 30-30-30 = 90mg
Exercise = Weights
Alcohol = AF

Feeling much better. Side effects greatly reduced. WHEW. And, AF all week so far!

How's your sleep? I wonder if this has much more of an impact than we understand. Baclofen interrupts sleep, for sure. And that can have all kinds of ramifications.
During the Vegas weekend, when I was trying to drink while still titrating up, my sleep was terrible. I am sure that was making my side effects and depressed mental state all the worse. This week, while I've been AF, sleep has been fine (except for the bile), which helps a lot.

I am thinking of you and hoping for your success! I send you all the best wishes...

Thanks MaryGoRound. I should probably do that spreadsheet thing. Up to now I've just been using this board a way to keep track of my dosages, AL intake, and S/Es.

SB

[kronkcarr]

New Here, My Baclofen Diary

SB,

You sound good! I just wanted to add in that I had that vomit feeling/dreaming thing 3 times and it was accompanied with nightmares. It's hard for me to describe. I only had it after 3 drinks (1-2 drinks is what I have every couple of weeks.).

Keep on!

kronkcarr

[jessiesb2]

New Here, My Baclofen Diary

N -acetylcysteine

I am on 20mg of baclofen. because of complications could not use a higher dose. I recently found an article in Scientific American MIND march/april 2013. The article was titled "A Lifeline for Addicts" and concerns recent studies on N-acetylcysteine use to help motivated addicts not relapse. I been using it 500mg day for about 5 days and am seeing a difference already.Read this article and see what you think. This compound is not a drug it is old well studied and safe. let me know here what you think.

[MaryGoRound]

New Here, My Baclofen Diary

Just remember why you are here. The SEs from bac are real but the SEs from alcohol are equally real.

I think backing down makes sense given your situation. It is definitely not a race! Everyone should know that it took OA over a year to get it right. Anyone who knows can please correct me if I am wrong.

Do not go too high if you are uncomfortable but also do not go too low if you are uncomfortable. I know this seems contradictory advice but I think it is valid (of course I am not a doctor not am I qualified to give medical advise).

I think it would be great if we all kept continuous records of our titration and out AL consumption. Maybe we could learn patterns.

[MaryGoRound]

New Here, My Baclofen Diary

J-

I just want to acknowledge your advise. I do realize that Bac cannot work for everyone. That must be said again. Bac is not a cure all for everyone! Thank you for posting alternatives. That is the entire point of MWO.