Newbie with question about Bac side effects

[Mer1962]

Hi Everyone! :new:

I've been lurking here for a while - what an amazing place. I learned about Bac from you all, and have read Dr. A's book. Thank you for forging the trail for we newbies!

I started taking Bac a little over a month ago (Pacifen from InhousePharmacy). My own doctor refused to prescribe it, and I can't afford Dr. Levin right now.

As background, I weigh about 122, height 5'1", and I'm female and 50 years old. I've been a daily drinker since my teen years. Average consumption used to be 5-7 per night for decades (wine/beer/rum/scotch), but over the past year I've been drinking 3-4 per night (wine/rum). I've never been a binger or daytime drinker. But this nightly drinking is getting really old! It's really affecting my work, my motivation, emotions, everything! And my body doesn't tolerate it nearly as well as it used to.

I stopped drinking for about two weeks about a year ago after some scary withdrawal symptoms. I felt fantastic sober...but went right back to it. I was 6 weeks sober in 1996. I also was sober for three weeks in 1989 after a breakup. Occasionally I'll go a night without AL if I really put my mind to it. Otherwise, it's been nonstop nightly drinking for about 33 years.

I'm enjoying some of the Bac SE's - less anxiety, more relaxed, and I'm sleeping a lot better. For the past few years, I would wake up every night with horrible anxious thoughts that kept me awake for hours (we've been under enormous financial stress, plus I'm beating myself up for the drinking). Now if I wake up, I just go right back to sleep - and the bad thoughts never come. Sometimes I sleep right through the night. What a HUGE relief!

But I'm having a hard time with the negative SE's - foggy, weak, sleepiness, some nausea. I can't imagine feeling this way for the next 6 months or year or more.

I started with the Bac at 7.5 mg/day (2.5 X 3), which was already too much. I went down to 5 mg/day (2.5 X 2) for about a week. I felt ok. Then I added another 2.5 for a total of 7.5 mg, and that whacked me out - I almost quit but decided to try to stick it out. I immediately dropped down to about 4 mg/day (2 X 2), which felt ok. I stayed there for about 2 weeks, then titrated up to 10 mg per day. After three days I went up to 12.5 mg/day, which I've done for the past three days. I've never taken more than 12.5 mg in any one day, and always in three doses.

So my question is, could taking more Bac actually decrease the SE's? I've seen some snippets on MWO about this, but nothing in great detail.

Could the typical recommended starting dosage of 15 mg/day actually cause fewer side effects than 10 mg/day?

Thanks so much! :thanks:

[StuckinLA]

Newbie with question about Bac side effects

It might--you never really know.

I honestly can't remember when I was that low, but 150mg/day had fewer SEs than 80, in my opinion :H

Sorry, not trying to make light. Each dose really will hit each person differently, and there's only one way to really find out. You're perfectly safe, it's just kind of annoying sometimes.

I vote up... you can always come bac down...

[Hippyman]

Newbie with question about Bac side effects

Mer1962;1472075 wrote: Hi Everyone! :new:

I've been lurking here for a while - what an amazing place. I learned about Bac from you all, and have read Dr. A's book. Thank you for forging the trail for we newbies!

I started taking Bac a little over a month ago (Pacifen from InhousePharmacy). My own doctor refused to prescribe it, and I can't afford Dr. Levin right now.

As background, I weigh about 122, height 5'1", and I'm female and 50 years old. I've been a daily drinker since my teen years. Average consumption used to be 5-7 per night for decades (wine/beer/rum/scotch), but over the past year I've been drinking 3-4 per night (wine/rum). I've never been a binger or daytime drinker. But this nightly drinking is getting really old! It's really affecting my work, my motivation, emotions, everything! And my body doesn't tolerate it nearly as well as it used to.

I stopped drinking for about two weeks about a year ago after some scary withdrawal symptoms. I felt fantastic sober...but went right back to it. I was 6 weeks sober in 1996. I also was sober for three weeks in 1989 after a breakup. Occasionally I'll go a night without AL if I really put my mind to it. Otherwise, it's been nonstop nightly drinking for about 33 years.

I'm enjoying some of the Bac SE's - less anxiety, more relaxed, and I'm sleeping a lot better. For the past few years, I would wake up every night with horrible anxious thoughts that kept me awake for hours (we've been under enormous financial stress, plus I'm beating myself up for the drinking). Now if I wake up, I just go right back to sleep - and the bad thoughts never come. Sometimes I sleep right through the night. What a HUGE relief!

But I'm having a hard time with the negative SE's - foggy, weak, sleepiness, some nausea. I can't imagine feeling this way for the next 6 months or year or more.

I started with the Bac at 7.5 mg/day (2.5 X 3), which was already too much. I went down to 5 mg/day (2.5 X 2) for about a week. I felt ok. Then I added another 2.5 for a total of 7.5 mg, and that whacked me out - I almost quit but decided to try to stick it out. I immediately dropped down to about 4 mg/day (2 X 2), which felt ok. I stayed there for about 2 weeks, then titrated up to 10 mg per day. After three days I went up to 12.5 mg/day, which I've done for the past three days. I've never taken more than 12.5 mg in any one day, and always in three doses.

So my question is, could taking more Bac actually decrease the SE's? I've seen some snippets on MWO about this, but nothing in great detail.

Could the typical recommended starting dosage of 15 mg/day actually cause fewer side effects than 10 mg/day?

Thanks so much! :thanks:

:welcome: Did you notice a difference in how you felt about drinking as soon as you started on Bac? I use liquid. It's cheap and has less Side effects for me and many others. Home - Phoenix Research Labs

[Mer1962]

Newbie with question about Bac side effects

Thanks!

Stuck, I hear you, and I didn't think you were making light of it. It does seem to be a person-by-person thing.

BTW, I've read the earlier parts of your story, and hope you're doing much better these days. I'll be reading through more of it soon.

Hippyman, that's a great suggestion. I think I'll try it! Looks to be a least half the price of the tablets per mg, as a nice bonus. Funny website, too. :-)

[StuckinLA]

Newbie with question about Bac side effects

Oh God, I'm a hot mess. But that's just par for the course! :H

I hear great things about the liquid--everyone's kangaroos seem to be doing very well on it. Hang in there, Mer. :l

[Mer1962]

Newbie with question about Bac side effects

Sorry to hear! Well at least you seem to maintain the all-important sense of humor.

Kangaroo? Is that an MWO term?

[StuckinLA]

Newbie with question about Bac side effects

Liquid bac is for research purposes only. So if you are working on an experiment, or happen to have a pet kangaroo who's gone and gotten herself addicted to alcohol, that's what it's for.

[Mer1962]

Newbie with question about Bac side effects

Ahhhh! Well I just so happen to have one of those. Only he's a horse who just loves wine and beer.

(Don't worry, he only gets a sip or two every couple of months...after all, he's still a minor, and I'm just not good at sharing my booze.)

Thanks, Stuck!

[Eve Gatha]

Newbie with question about Bac side effects

:welcome:

Hello Mer, and Welcome!

It sounds like you?re doing it quite well so far? slow and steady, and listening to your body. Good for you! No need to rush higher, though that?s worked for some young bucks around here or because you?re anxious to see results. Adjusting dosage up or down a bit does give you some control as you?re finding, right?

Results may also be counter-intuitive, as you asked whether going up in dose would help alleviate side effects? It sure did for me, at least Sometimes. But mostly slow n steady worked. (I?ve been using bac for a year and a half, and it?s changed my life.) Yeah, kangaroos seem to worry less about SE?s, I have one, myself!

Also, the consensus here seems to be that baclofen?s effects don?t have as much to do with body weight as one might think. (It?s not like the fairly direct alcohol to body weight relation we?re more familiar with, for example.) I?m in the same ballpark as you many ways though, 115, 5?3? and drinking roughly the same way and almost exact number of years. Wow, I can relate.

I?m personally convinced there?s a strong correlation between the years and intensity we spent with alcohol, and the time and intensity combo with baclofen needed to come home to a safe landing? our bodies age, etc.. but that discussion can wait for others to chime in, another time. Just wishing you the best, Mer, So glad you?re here!

[Mer1962]

Newbie with question about Bac side effects

Eve Gatha;1472247 wrote: :welcome:

Hello Mer, and Welcome!

It sounds like you’re doing it quite well so far… slow and steady, and listening to your body. Good for you! No need to rush higher, though that’s worked for some young bucks around here or because you’re anxious to see results. Adjusting dosage up or down a bit does give you some control as you’re finding, right?

Results may also be counter-intuitive, as you asked whether going up in dose would help alleviate side effects? It sure did for me, at least Sometimes. But mostly slow n steady worked. (I’ve been using bac for a year and a half, and it’s changed my life.) Yeah, kangaroos seem to worry less about SE’s, I have one, myself!

Also, the consensus here seems to be that baclofen’s effects don’t have as much to do with body weight as one might think. (It’s not like the fairly direct alcohol to body weight relation we’re more familiar with, for example.) I’m in the same ballpark as you many ways though, 115, 5’3” and drinking roughly the same way and almost exact number of years. Wow, I can relate.

I’m personally convinced there’s a strong correlation between the years and intensity we spent with alcohol, and the time and intensity combo with baclofen needed to come home to a safe landing… our bodies age, etc.. but that discussion can wait for others to chime in, another time. Just wishing you the best, Mer, So glad you’re here!

Thanks, Eve! Wow, a fellow "kangaroo" owner and New Yorker, too!

Yes, I listen to my body - emotionally, physically, intuition, etc. But the going up and down (even in 2mg increments) was more about me stabbing in the dark for something that felt tolerable in terms of the SE's.

And if I were to be completely honest with myself, I'd say that I'm not in a huge hurry to give up my lifetime friend. YES I desperately want to quit daily drinking. Yes I want results. And yes I want AL to be a choice, with total indifference, for once in my life!!! But do I want to give it up completely? No. So I'm not in a huge hurry to see quick results like some of these courageous cowboys and cowgirls - I just want to take it nice and easy, but with fewer SE's.

You said Bac changed your life... would you mind sharing more about that? What dosages did you take? Are you on maintenance now? Are you abstinent or moderating? :thanks:

[Mer1962]

Newbie with question about Bac side effects

PS Or if you've posted your experience elsewhere, I'm happy to search.

[Mer1962]

Newbie with question about Bac side effects

Hippyman;1472191 wrote: :welcome: Did you notice a difference in how you felt about drinking as soon as you started on Bac?

No. In fact, if anything, my intake went up to 5-6 drinks a day.

[Eve Gatha]

Newbie with question about Bac side effects

Hi Mer,

Sorry for the delayed response… I’m curious how you’re doing? I definitely hear ya about not wanting to leave behind alcohol, your “lifelong friend!” And no, I haven’t written my history here yet, but am happy to share if it helps.

Quick version for now: I called Dr L early on (around 18 months ago?) and kept meticulous records going slowly, steadily up in dosage for months. Bac had an incredible effect on my need to drink, and as I “just kept taking the damn pills,” I felt my life profoundly changing. On average, I increased only like 10mg/week, cause I have a technical position and needed to keep tweaking and stabilizing to compensate for side effects, especially during the day.

At 210 mg/day (which felt close to switch but not really “there yet”) my daily obligations got too demanding for the SE’s, so I gradually backed off for a while. I eventually maintained at 110 mg/day for many months while taking care of business, yet noticed something surprising. Even at half the daily dose, bac Still seemed to be steadily diminishing my interest in alcohol. I think this is an important, though subtle observation! Perhaps it was Bleep, maybe others who alluded to this longer term bac-use effect, as well?

So Mer, I wouldn’t worry too much right now about the “abstinent vs. moderation” debate. There’s plenty of time to sort that out for yourself as the journey progresses. Personally, I always seem to get bit in the butt something fierce when I try to grab my shadow side directly and beat or deny it into submission. Eeek!! I don’t win in the long run beating my dependence on alcohol into submission on any simple direct level, either. Right now I’m humbly, gratefully watching it fall away as part of a larger process that’s unfolding on many levels, and I’m “leaning into it” with baclofen, and watching closely. So far, so good!

After years of meditation, therapy, and waking up every morning with my shadow-buddies firmly attached and smiling at me like Cheshire Cats, I’ve noticed my real freedom is also always CloserThanThat. My Freedom usually shows up peripherally, at first. I notice it out of the corner of my eye. Then somehow staying present and patient opens the door wider. Did you ever see “The Horse Whisperer?” Kinda like that. (Damn, maybe I should’ve written this on Otter’s Zen thread!)

Anyway, I’m a work in progress, Mer. Hope to hear you’re doing well.

[Mer1962]

Newbie with question about Bac side effects

Hi Eve,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful response, and for sharing. :-)

I'm doing much better, thank you - the SE's seem to be diminishing, at least to the point where I'm functioning a lot better and feeling pretty good. Like you, my work is technical in nature, so I need my wits about me most days. I'm also titrating up slowly, now at a whopping 17.5 mg per day. Taking it slow seems to be the way to go. Luckily I work from home.

Congratulations on your journey! It sounds like you're moderating these days?

I'm so glad baclofen is working so well for you, and that you "JTTDP" and pushed through - it's very encouraging to know it works. Also interesting about BAC having the long term cumulative effect, even with a lower dose.

Funny you mentioned the dark side biting you in the butt... when I mentioned being six weeks sober in 1996, I had decided to give up alchohol, cigarettes, sugar, carbohydrates, and caffeine, and start exercising all on the same day. (Did I mention I'm an over-achiever?) Totally nuts, I know! But I saw it as the only way out of a downward spiral of depression, drinking, more depression, weight gain, and on and on. BIG mistake!

I was in the process of getting my MBA at the time, and had asked a school doctor for a nicotine patch prescription. When she asked what was my reason for quitting smoking, I made the mistake of telling her I wanted to quit ALL of those things to stop this downward spiral. She freaked out, and told me I had to see a school shrink before she would give me the prescription. She sent me straight to the psych floor of the building.

There, a psychiatrist listened to my life story for about 40 minutes. When I was finished, she said, "With the life you've had, you need to be in therapy three times a week, and on medication." I said, "Hell no!" She asked me to think about it, and come back in a few days.

While I was waiting for our next appointment, I discovered she had double booked me with some other girl. I was ENRAGED. When I came into her office, she said, "You look so angry. If you were a glass of water, and you added just one more drop, you would explode." She was right. I totally lost it. Bawled my eyes out, I was so angry and hurt. Clearly, I was a mess, she knew it, and pushed just the right button.

I later found out she purposely double booked the appointment, just to push me over the edge. I was so pissed at the time, but now realize she may have saved my life.

More than eight years of therapy and a variety of SSRI's later, I finally cleared up most of the underlying depression. And I went off the psych meds in 2005.

I too find solace in meditation these days - it's the only source of true empowerment, support, and love of self that I've ever found (vs. the fake "power" that comes from alcohol!).

(FYI, for anyone who struggles with depression, SamE did WONDERS for me - truly an amazing over-the-counter med with no side effects.)

So after six weeks of sobriety (and no ciggies, carbs, sugar, caffeine, etc.)... my lovely mother said something nasty, as usual. Blaming her of course, I went straight to the store and bought a big bottle of Jack Daniels and a carton of Marlboros. And there I was.

I loved The Horse Whisperer! Mad crush on Robert Redford since Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, plus horses - what a combo. Although I'm not crazy about the term "horse whispering", I've been using natural horsemanship with my horses for ten years - but like you pointed out, I cannot work with them when my mind isn't quiet and connected with their minds. It's dangerous, and usually doesn't end well. So with our huge financial stresses in the last few years, I haven't been able to ride - so I just hang out with them. We also communicate, sometimes just us, and sometimes through my animal communicator, especially when they have health issues. It's truly a beautiful experience.

So yeah, I love that film... although I have to say that the technique of tying the leg and laying the horse down (into submission) is just plain wrong. There are far more effective and kinder methods that can usually (always?) achieve the same result.

Thanks again for sharing - you are an inspiration!

Cheers,
Mers

[StuckinLA]

Newbie with question about Bac side effects

Mer1962;1475792 wrote: I went straight to the store and bought a big bottle of Jack Daniels and a carton of Marlboros.

You're my kind of girl, Mer.

:l