Baclofen and the man on mars

[spiritwolf333]

Baclofen and the man on mars

Hi MonM -sorry to hear about your al struggles. All that I know is from my experience and that was:
(1) Alcohol free from day 1 (which was my target)
(2). First 14 days -Many cravings and alcohol thoughts-BAC is not working
(3). After 14 days -Very few cravings -if any, but still thoughts of alcohol
(4) My thoughts of alcohol are related to the "uplift" I use to get from alcohol -not the calming
(5). Somewhere after the 6 week period (around 180-200 mg, I realized that I was not even thinking about alcohol for any purpose other than "it might make good,things even better"
(6). Alcohol experiment: 1 afternoon beer drinking trial with the hopes of catching some euphoria and motivation. NO Motivation achieved and a 20 minute buzz. Baclofen has shot a hole in my alcohol escape.
(7). To this day, I have no desire to drink and I am @ 220mg -to titration down to 180mg

I am truly disappointed to read about your negative results. There are several new media in the pipeline. Have you considered re-starting your program and leaving the alcohol out of the picture? I only say this because I never really thought this could happen to me-alcohol free- but it has and my life has taken on new meaning (not easy at first though-I had to take a month off from everything).

[bleep]

Baclofen and the man on mars

I wouldn't be panicking, or even be disappointed. Lots of folk have had to go higher to reach indifference. Although it must be great to hit it early, that's not the case here.

Also bear in mind that an increase takes about 4 days to work its way through to your brain. So although your SE's may increase immediately, you won't get any effect on drinking until a little later. And certainly for me, baclofen did nothing to my drinking levels, until suddenly it did everything. There was no gradual tapering off.

[man on mars]

Baclofen and the man on mars

bleep;1522989 wrote: I wouldn't be panicking, or even be disappointed. Lots of folk have had to go higher to reach indifference. Although it must be great to hit it early, that's not the case here.

Also bear in mind that an increase takes about 4 days to work its way through to your brain. So although your SE's may increase immediately, you won't get any effect on drinking until a little later. And certainly for me, baclofen did nothing to my drinking levels, until suddenly it did everything. There was no gradual tapering off.

I'm factoring that into my current titration schedule. I did 9 days at 200, 5 days at ~225, and 6 days at 250. I'm now at 275 and will hold there for a few days. Last night, 6 drinks. Pretty good.

Sleep last night was difficult. I think I was awake as often as I was asleep from 2:30 AM to 9:00 when I finally crawled out of bed. The good news is that I find sleep gets a lot easier, and the SEs do start to decline slightly after about 4 days at a new dose. It sure would be nice if 275 turned out to do the trick, because 300 is going to be intense. But I will go as high as I have to.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Baclofen and the man on mars

Hey, Man. (ha! That's funny.)

I ditto what bleep said. And would add that it takes what it takes, so glad you're thinking it all out.

Glad you kept your dignity at the party. Hope you're looking forward to trying to figure out how you're going to feel when you're the d.d. It's not a bad gig. Not that I'd know, I'm old and go to bed before everyone's drunk enough to need a d.d. Happily!

How did all the work stuff work out?

[man on mars]

Baclofen and the man on mars

Ne/Neva Eva;1523149 wrote: Glad you kept your dignity at the party.I was kind of amazed that I pulled it off.

How did all the work stuff work out?

It looks like everything is going to be fine. My deadlines got bumped back a bit, and I managed to get a lot of extra unnecessary work off my plate. Things are still going to be hectic for a few weeks, but I'm no longer in panic mode.

I've also secured a new place to live and will be moving this week. It's smack dab in the middle of the exact part of town that I've wanted to live in for years, and it's got everything I have been looking for. I spent all weekend packing. Moving is usually a total nightmare for me, but this time it should be relatively painless because I'm well-prepared.

Oh, and I had a good first date today. With a girl who isn't much of a drinker. I figured it is probably good for me to start surrounding myself with more people like that. Most of my friends know I'm a heavy drinker, so I continually get invited out to things that involve drinking, and I fear (hell, I know) that I am frequently not invited to things either because there's no drinking involved or people know that if I show up, I'll get hammered.

The only major unsolved issue remaining in my life right now is the drinking. The switch surely can't be far off. Judging by how I have felt in the last 48 hours since bumping to 275 mg, I don't think there are any more double digit days in my future. AF still seems impossible, but getting drunk is just not appealing anymore. I have liquor in the house and my primary thought about it is how disgusting it would be to drink it. I will probably pour it out.

[RedThread12]

Baclofen and the man on mars

Very! Good! News! All of it, but mostly hearing that another drink just isn't that interesting, right now. Might be at another time, but just NOW it isn't.

I think it's good to note each moment free from craving. I remember vividly when I had to NOT bring alcohol into my house, because I would drink, literally, whatever was around. Also cleaned out some friends' liquor stashes, as well!!! Four years later it's still a standing joke - I actually drank the creme de cacao that had been around for decades.

Good luck with your move. Sounds great! The bac-road seems to be unique in many ways for each of us. But the aim - freedom from drinking against one's will - is SO worth whatever it takes; and THAT, I believe, is a joy and gratitude shared by all for whom bac has been a part of their way out.

Way to jkktdps!!!

[man on mars]

Baclofen and the man on mars

Here comes a big, long post. And you aren't going to like reading it.

I think I understand, now, how baclofen really works.

TSM is predicated on the idea that naltrexone removes the pleasure from drinking, and by adding naltrexone to the mix while continuing to drink, drinking ceases to be pleasurable, and by the tenets of behavioral psychology, if you remove the positive feedback, the behavior fades away. Extinction.

Naltrexone works by blocking specific opiod receptors. It removes much of the "high" associated with getting drunk. It prevents opiates from working at all. The effect is immediate and very perceptible.

Ameisen seemed to never really understand this. He repeatedly referred to naltrexone as an "anti-craving" agent in his book, which it certainly is not. It's as if he was completely oblivious to the core concept of TSM.

Baclofen, compared to naltrexone, has a much more extensive effect, but comes on more gradually, and I can't help but feel that high-dose baclofen is very much like TSM taken to a terrible extreme. It removes the pleasure from my life altogether. Not just from drinking, but from anything. I don't feel much of anything anymore, at 275 mg/day. I have no desire to watch the TV shows I used to enjoy. I have no desire to do anything that I used to like to do, of which I already had little left because of how fried my brain has become from close to a decade of heavy drinking. I am still doing things I used to like to do, out of habit, and still experiencing a very tiny burst of pleasure chemicals in my brain occasionally, but it's like the volume has been turned down to 10% on anything and everything. I just don't really care much about anything at all. Nothing makes those chemicals flood into my synapses anymore. Alcohol, exercise, sex, it is all empty now.

I consider myself very fortunate that I'm still able to reach orgasm, but the feeling is muted. And achieving it has become so very, very difficult. Masturbation used to be a daily exercise for me, but now I can only manage it maybe three times a week. Colin described this well in the "baclofen wears off" thread:

Colin;1519982 wrote: The problem isn't even that straightforward. Ejaculation will show the casual observer that we have fruition but I am still missing the instantaneous euphoria which is the real reason for the exercise. n.b. procreation is no more than a side-effect.

I haven't had sex since I started taking baclofen, but I am 100% positive that I will never climax from having sex while I am still on it. Really, I am no longer attracted to anything. I can put on porn, and I do still get a reaction to it, but it's become very difficult to find anything that does it for me, and the energy required to maintain that focus is daunting. And the girls in my life that I used to be frustratingly, continually attracted to? They no longer do anything for me. I had a great first date yesterday, but really, I feel nothing for this girl. And I know I really should. I see girls on the street that I would normally drool over, and I still look, out of habit, but the rush of endorphins is completely gone.

All of this is bringing me inexorably back to the conclusion that deep down I've known all along: my brain is fried. Like the rat with an electrode in its brain, and a button to press to activate it, I've pressed the button so hard, for so long, that it takes massive stimulation for me to feel anything. And baclofen works because it makes pressing the button even less effective. I dumped my vodka down the drain today because I knew it is now worthless to me. That button doesn't work anymore. But you know what? Nothing else is wired in to press the button in its place. That pleasure circuit is all but dead.

I'm finding myself contemplating the horrifying conclusion that maybe, the only real solution really is the traditional one. Complete, total, permanent abstinence, with all of the horribleness that comes along with it. Stop pressing the button with alcohol and let the sensitivity come back, get back to some semblance of a reality where regular life experiences press the button for me. I want to cry, just contemplating how horrible that would be, but even that emotion dies before it reaches the surface right now. I sit here, like a zombie, feeling nothing.

Ameisen was either delusional, a liar, or just phenomenally lucky when he claimed that he experienced nothing but somnolence from HDB. This shit is brutal. It fucks up your brain, badly. And yes, so does alcohol, but god damn. I can't keep living life as an alcoholic, but I surely can't live like this, either.

For so long, I have been clinging to the idea that there is an easy way out of this, that some combination of medications or supplements or something will fix me, and I will somehow be transformed into a normal, functional human being who can drink socially and moderately and be truly cured of my affliction. I am finding it harder and harder to keep believing that can really be the case.

Yes, I'm going to keep taking the damn pills. The god damn pills that are wrecking me with SEs, keeping me from sleeping at night and then making me sleepy all day, preventing me from experiencing any pleasure in life while not preventing me from drinking myself into a stupor every night. I have no choice at this point. Even if I decided to stop, it would take weeks for me to safely titrate down.

What I'm thinking right now is that I need to STOP DRINKING. Stop waiting for the cravings to go away and just force it. "White-knuckle" it. Get a streak of AF days under my belt. And once I get that streak started, keep it going, and drop my baclofen dose until I can ACTUALLY FEEL FEELINGS again. It's going to be awful, and I really doubt I can manage it, but continuing to keep taking more and more pills is just bashing my head against the wall.

[spiritwolf333]

Baclofen and the man on mars

man on mars;1523621 wrote: Here comes a big, long post. And you aren't going to like reading it.



All of this is bringing me inexorably back to the conclusion that deep down I've known all along: my brain is fried. Like the rat with an electrode in its brain, and a button to press to activate it, I've pressed the button so hard, for so long, that it takes massive stimulation for me to feel anything.

I'm finding myself contemplating the horrifying conclusion that maybe, the only real solution really is the traditional one. Complete, total, permanent abstinence, with all of the horribleness that comes along with it. Stop pressing the button with alcohol and let the sensitivity come back, get back to some semblance of a reality where regular life experiences press the button for me.

This shit is brutal. It fucks up your brain, badly. And yes, so does alcohol, but god damn. I can't keep living life as an alcoholic,

Yes, I'm going to keep taking the damn pills.

What I'm thinking right now is that I need to STOP DRINKING. Stop waiting for the cravings to go away and just force it. "White-knuckle" it. Get a streak of AF days under my belt. And once I get that streak started, keep it going, and drop my baclofen dose until I can ACTUALLY FEEL FEELINGS again. s going to be awful, and I really doubt I can manage it, but continuing to keep taking more and more pills is just bashing my head against the wall.

Hi MoM - From the quotes I have selected, you have really offered up some great advice -and for other people, not just yourself. BAC Has offered me some extreme challenges -but in brutal light of honesty, ALCOHOL WAS KILLING ME AT A MUCH MORE RAPID PACE THAN EVER BEFORE. I can live with the slow return of the buzz from daily life activities. I have a zero chance to live a truly free life if I continue to drink.

MoM, give the AF way a chance. I think you will surprise the crap out of yourself. And hey, if you are not happy at the end of two to three months, what the hell did you lose -60 happy days of drinking and feeling like shit, in a different way?

Take your own advice MoM- I don't think you will be asking for a refund in 6 months. I was expecting to feel perfect in two months ---and as a few members so kindly reminded me; "I've been walking in the alcohol forest for a long time and it might just take me more than a month or two to get out". Followed by "Patience Grasshopper"

Good luck to you and Peace.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Baclofen and the man on mars

Morning MoM,

What you've written is very thoughtful. I can certainly relate. I wanted to share some info that might give you a bit of hope...

My husband had a brief experience at high dose with achieving orgasm. He also experienced a brief period when everything was stimulating. (I couldn't get anything done...washing the dishes was sexy. Oh, wait, washing the dishes is sexy. It was a fun period of time.) Things have since (long ago) settled into normal, we have an active and incredibly rewarding sex life without any issues. It's WAY better than the first 10 years together.

I stopped being interested in a lot of what used to interest me. Tv is a good example. So I got rid of all of our tvs except one. It still bores me. I haven't missed it, but I had to find other things to do.

This article is funny and you might enjoy his thoughts on the matter:

Giles Coren Gives Up Booze - Esquire

I thought my brain was fried, for a looooong time. It might have been. Yours might be. But what I've got left works just fine for what I need.

Everything changes when everything changes--my everything was booze. Without it, there is a whole new world. Rather disconcerting, but I love it. Booze makes everything worse.

Hang in there. It gets much better.

[bleep]

Baclofen and the man on mars

Mars, there is a world of difference between titrating up on baclofen, and just taking baclofen at a regular dose. Especially titrating up fairly quickly as you are doing now.

[man on mars]

Baclofen and the man on mars

Day 62, fifth day at 275 mg. I am at least sleeping through the night now. Still intense cravings in the evening, though. I made it until 8:45 last night and then had three beers. Would have had a fourth but I had forced myself to drink slowly and it was late by the time I finished the third. I think part of the reason why this level is still not working for me is that I have been going about my dosing schedule in the wrong way. I think I said something along these lines a few weeks ago in this thread, but didn't really follow through on my own observation: I don't think the total daily dose matters nearly as much as the amount you have in your bloodstream when you need it the most. I have been trying to up my total daily dose while minimizing SEs, and the best way to make that number go up is to take many smaller doses throughout the day.

This is typical for me right now:

9:00 AM 50 mg
11:30 AM 50 mg
2:00 PM 50 mg
4:30 PM 50 mg
7:00 PM 50 mg
9:30 PM 25 mg

I have taken over half my daily dose by 2 PM. On Monday and Tuesday, I got so sleepy at about 2:30 that I had to go out and take a nap in my car. I could not function at all until I slept. But you know what? Even before baclofen, I never really had cravings during the day. It is stupid for me to be saturating my brain with baclofen all day when the only time really I need it is after about 3 PM. I am going to start shifting my doses more heavily into the evening. This is the plan for tomorrow:

9:00 AM 37.5 mg
11:30 AM 25 mg
2:00 PM 25 mg
4:30 PM 62.5 mg
7:00 PM 75 mg
9:30 PM 50 mg

Keep the 4:30 dose moderate so I don't fall asleep driving home. Huge dose at 7 PM to try and combat the massive cravings I always start to experience as 8 PM approaches. And a healthy dose at 9:30 to supplement that, taken early enough that I will hopefully still be able to sleep when midnight rolls around. I am a bit concerned that the 75 mg dose will just knock me out entirely, since I have never taken that much in one dose, but that sure would be a way to force an AF night, wouldn't it? Pass out before I can even start drinking...

Despite my post on Monday night, I am still committed to seeing this thing through. I may already be at or past my "switch" dose and just need to be Taking the Damn Pills on a different schedule.

[man on mars]

Baclofen and the man on mars

Shifting my dose toward the PM has shown no positive effect thus far.

Thinking back on the last few weeks, I don't feel like 275 mg is any better than lower doses were. I have been at this dose for a week, and the only SE that has diminished is trouble staying asleep. I'm now able to sleep pretty well. But, I have visual flashes constantly toward the end of the day. I have muscle twitches and weird flashes of sensations in my perception all day. These are not diminishing. This is just the reality of what it is like for me to live my life with such a massive amount of this drug in my system.

Most importantly, I still experience no feelings whatsoever. Life is empty, devoid of meaning. I am like a robot.

I am bringing my dose down. If there is a "switch," I must have blown through it already, because my feelings toward alcohol have been the same for weeks. Doing "seriously alcoholic" stuff like buying liquor and taking it to a party is just the remnants of old habits dying hard. At this dose, I can only drink hard if I force myself to. My problem at this point cannot be solved by further saturating my brain with even more baclofen.

I think I can probably safely come down to the 200 mg level rapidly since I have only been at such a high dose for a couple of weeks. After that, I will reduce at something like 12.5 mg/day and be on the lookout for withdrawal symptoms.

I want the feelings back. I will reduce my dose until I experience emotions again. That dose may end up being very low, or zero. I am fine with that. I may need to find a different way out. I don't think what I am having trouble with is a side effect, I think it is a primary effect, and if I had known this was what I was signing up for, I doubt I would have started this experiment. This is no way to live.

[spiritwolf333]

Baclofen and the man on mars

Good AM MonM. Just dang. Man, I am so sorry BAC is causing you so much grief. I hope some of the seniors will try to offer more advice. What I do know for me is this: I know the dead feeling you are talking about; I think it sort of advanced a level of depression in me that I was unfamiliar with. This happened after I had upped my dose from 220 to about 240 to 260 for a few days. I was totally anxiety free but felt like crap. I'm headed back to the 200 mg level. Also M, I have had no problem at all upping or lowering my dose by 20 to 40 mg per day. Maybe I just have not stayed at the higher levels long enough to experience the withdrawals. And I have not dropped below 200 mg for awhile now.

I really hope you are able to find a workable BAC level. It sucks to see someone struggle while others are having positive results. Most all of my BAC SE have all but left me. Sleeping and vivid dreams are still at issue. Good luck to you MoM.

[bleep]

Baclofen and the man on mars

Sorry to hear you having such a rough go of it. As you decrease, be on the lookout for indifference, a lot of people have found it on the way down as well as the way up.

Also, before making a plan to come right off it, why don't you just see how it goes? You will probably notice this SE disappearing at a lower dose, and you will still be able to take advantage of the reduced drinking at whatever dose that happens to be at. Something to consider, anyway.

Let us know how you get on Mars.

[MaryGoRound]

Baclofen and the man on mars

I really love Bleep's enthusiasm. Can I bottle it and sell it?

Bac does do something to the transmitters in the brain.

I have become very depressed on HDB. I agree the best option for quitting alcohol is to quit.

If you decide to quit Bac, do not look at it as a failure. People seem to find indifference on the way down.