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    Baclofen and the man on mars

    I am a 27 year old male alcoholic. I have been drinking heavily and regularly for the duration of my twenties, and have plenty of alcoholism preceding me in both sides of my family tree. Most of my friends know about it, and are generally in denial or unaware of the severity, but as far as I know, my family has no idea about anything. I typically consume around 10 drinks per night, and this has been the case for the last several years. I sometimes miss work because of hangovers, and although I never drink before or during work, and never have issues with cravings to drink while on the job, once I get home, the alcohol flows and I drink until I pass out. I wake up, typically hung over, go into work, and by the time quitting time rolls around, the hangover is gone and when I get home from work, the cycle repeats itself. Every day.

    I have never sought any kind of treatment for my condition because I have always been well-aware of the commonly-held belief that alcoholism is incurable, "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic," and I couldn't stand the idea of quitting via the traditional means - abstinence, which seems both terrifying and impossible, coupled with AA or similar, which statistically does not work ~90% of the time. I witnessed that approach fail with my father as a teenager, and although he did finally get clean, it was only through a massively invasive year-long program that was essentially inpatient rehab, plus anxiety medication. He has remained sober for several years, but I have watched as almost every other member of my extended family who's struggled with various forms of addiction (there are many) has failed over and over again. With my family's perceptions molded by the experiences of my other family members, I shudder to think of the consequences if they found out that I was an alcoholic, and just how severe my condition has gotten.

    My first attempt to do something about this was in 2011, when I learned about the Sinclair method and naltrexone. After reading Roy Eskapa's book, I decided I would try it. I skipped the step of going to my doctor and ordered some naltrexone from a foreign pharmacy website. My doctor was unaware of my alcoholism, and I was not willing to risk being denied the naltrexone and instead coerced into traditional treatment, as well as having my medical records forever marked with the "alcoholic" label.

    The naltrexone arrived and I proceeded to titrate myself up to the recommended 50 mg/day dose, which I maintained for the latter half of 2011. At first, my alcohol intake dropped a bit, but I never had a single alcohol-free day, and eventually stabilized at an average intake of 8 drinks per night, which I logged meticulously. When it finally became apparent that I was not responding to the treatment, I gave up on it and returned to my old habits full-force.

    In late 2011 and early 2012, some issues came up in my personal life (not caused directly by drinking) which created unprecedented levels of stress and anxiety. It eventually let to the point where I was barely able to function at work, and went to my doctor, who prescribed me various different medications during the first couple months of the year. During the evening, I had alcohol, and that was sufficient to alleviate my anxiety issues, but during the day, I needed something to function. Eventually, I was prescribed a benzo, which was effective enough for me to get by on during the day.

    I tried regular exercise and extensive supplementation of my diet with vitamins and supplements in 2012, and although it did seem improve my subjective quality of life a bit, it did nothing to reduce my desire to drink or the amount I consumed.

    Finally, a few months ago I reached another breaking point and decided to give naltrexone another shot. I figured that maybe it had not worked because I didn't follow the Sinclair method strictly enough, didn't make sure to always take the pill at least an hour before drinking, and that maybe the advertised "no willpower required" tagline was wrong, and that I ought to use as much willpower as I could to make TSM work. Again, I experienced the "honeymoon" initial drop in consumption, and even managed to power through two separate alcohol-free days in February. I started to think optimistically about what the future had in store for the first time in a very long time.

    My optimism quickly faded as, just as it did in 2011, my desire to drink and the amount I consumed quickly came right back up to the same level they were at before I had started taking the naltrexone again. I came onto this forum looking to read some posts about people's experiences with TSM, mainly to try and talk myself into continuing to take the naltrexone, or possibly to learn what I was doing wrong. What surprised me was that there were almost no threads about TSM or naltrexone. Instead, everyone was talking about baclofen. I didn't know anything about baclofen.

    I did a little bit of reading online. I ordered Amiesen's book.

    Actually, I went to the local bookstore first, but when they didn't have it, and told me it was out of print, I came home, dejected, only to find out that the book is now being sold under a different name, and ordered it online. It showed up a week later, I read it, and became convinced, moreso than I was when I finished Eskapa's book. As I mentioned before, I learned in early 2012 that I have been suffering from anxiety my entire life and did not fully realize it until a stressful event brought me to the point where it dominated my life and I couldn't ignore it. Amiesen's assertions that most, if not all, cases of alcoholism coincide with anxiety disorders, and that it's not the alcoholism that causes the anxiety, but the other way around, resonated deeply with me.

    So, I ordered some baclofen. Again, skipping the doctor. I ordered a lot of it, enough to last about six weeks on an aggressive titration schedule of adding 20 mg/day every third day. It typically takes about two weeks from ordering to receiving the medication from the online pharmacy I use, so that gives me at least three weeks to see how I tolerate the baclofen, and then three more weeks to receive the next shipment if I choose to continue the treatment.

    April 5, 2013

    The first shipment arrived Friday. I got home from work and immediately took 10 mg at 7 PM. Three hours later, at 10 PM, I took another 10 mg, and within 30 minutes had to go to bed due to being so sleepy. I normally can't get to sleep until about 1 AM. During this period, I had several drinks, which I didn't count, but was probably around 6 to 8 drinks by the time I fell asleep.

    The dreams, they were absolutely nuts. I dreamt vivid dreams all night like I have never experienced in my life. I encountered several characters who were combinations of people I know in my life, mainly girls I have dated over the last few years, as well as a mixture of two recent roommates of mine who was suffering from some strange form of mental illness that was very distressing. To be honest, half the reason I am writing this post is to share these unbelievable dream experiences with someone. Only one of my friends knows I am taking baclofen, and it's killing me not being able to tell anyone about the crazy dreams I have been having on this stuff. It's not only the content of the dreams, but the clarity and vividness of what's happening, and how much of it I remember. Normally, my dreams are a fog; a shapeless, mostly nonsensical stream of neurons firing randomly with little or no coherent "plot" to it and little in the way of clear visual or auditory perception, and I wake up remembering almost nothing.

    April 6, 2013


    I took 10 mg three times at five-hour intervals. Toward the latter half of the day, I started drinking, and after taking the last 10 mg, went to a party, where I drank more than I ought to have, and kind of made an ass out of myself. Nothing new there. When I finally got home, at about midnight, I took another 10 mg in the spirit of titrating up as fast as possible. I have been experiencing minimal side effects besides some somnolence, the occasional dizzy spell, and a general state of mental haziness or fogginess.

    More unbelievable dreams. They were borderline lucid, which is something that has never happened to me. Many images are burned into my mind, but by far my clearest memory is of fighting aliens. I was like superman, in space, flying at alien spaceships amongst a grand battle, smashing into them and wrecking them with brute force. I vividly remember tearing open an alien ship, and peeking inside, only to find that the aliens inside were menacing and terrifying. Like in the movie "Independence Day." Quite literally nightmarish. Overall, though, I felt pretty good upon waking.

    April 7, 2013

    I took 10 mg at 10 AM, 10 more just before 3 PM, and 10 more at about 8 PM. I had some dizziness at about 4 PM which was unpleasant, coinciding with my first few sips of beer of the evening, but other than that I've mostly felt quite good, aside from a continued mental haziness that has persisted all day. I've had about five drinks so far today as I write this, and will probably have another two or three before I finally get to sleep. I don't intend to take any more baclofen today.

    I don't think I am going to try to titrate extremely aggressively. I'm hoping I will be able to function normally tomorrow as I go back to work for my first day on the job on baclofen. Tomorrow, I plan to take 5 mg in the morning, 12.5 mg after lunch, and 17.5 mg when I get home, for a total of 35 mg. I have 10 mg and 25 mg pills, so those are easy doses to mete out. I have been pleased that the side effects have not been as severe as I had feared they might be, but I'm still at a very low dose, so we'll see if that lasts as I titrate upward. I have definitely not noticed my hangovers being any worse, which was a very pronounced effect when I was taking naltrexone, and the biggest motivating factor (besides the fact that it wasn't working) in my choice to stop taking it.

    Onward and upward. I can't begin to imagine what I will experience after I fall asleep tonight, after my experiences the last two nights...

    #2
    Baclofen and the man on mars

    Great post, and welcome to the forums.

    The baclofen dreams are intense, and one of my favourite SE's. I'm glad you have decided to not beat it with a huge stick, there isn't really any need. You will get there in the end, and will have a more pleasant go of it if you take it sensibly.

    Good luck with it, let us know how you get on.

    Comment


      #3
      Baclofen and the man on mars

      Hi M&M,

      This is a wonderful thread started by our resident Dream expert!

      https://www.mywayout.org/community/f9...ght-73596.html

      :welcome: and sleep tight,
      :l
      On My Own Way Out Since May 20, 2012
      *If you think poorly of yourself, you can fail with a clear conscience.
      https://www.mywayout.org/community/f11/tool-box-27556.html tool box
      https://www.mywayout.org/community/f19/newbies-nest-30074.html newbie nest

      Comment


        #4
        Baclofen and the man on mars

        Welcome MoM.
        Early in my baclofen trip I too experienced the powerful dreams where nothing could go wrong. Later I began feeling omnipotent during the day, at the time it felt fine but later I became suspicious of the euphoria. Eventually the euphoria tapered off to be replaced by contentedness. This has taken nearly a year.

        Good luck

        Comment


          #5
          Baclofen and the man on mars

          :welcome: man on mars

          I also had and continue to have vivid dreams on Bac. My understanding is it is part of the brian re-wiring that the drug induces. Dr. L. Is a big proponent of using the dreams to figure out how your mind is processing information.

          Also, when you eventually cut-out (or drastically cut-down) alcohol you can expect to have vivid dreams. This is also part of the brain re-wiring circuits. Sometimes the dreams can be pleasant other times really scary. It is all very normal.

          Comment


            #6
            Baclofen and the man on mars

            man on mars;1489002 wrote:


            ... As I mentioned before, I learned in early 2012 that I have been suffering from anxiety my entire life and did not fully realize it until a stressful event brought me to the point where it dominated my life and I couldn't ignore it. Amiesen's assertions that most, if not all, cases of alcoholism coincide with anxiety disorders, and that it's not the alcoholism that causes the anxiety, but the other way around, resonated deeply with me.

            So, I ordered some baclofen. ...
            Hello MoM, and welcome. Lots of anxious people who drink too much find relief from their anxiety as well as relief from craving with HDB. But it doesn't always unfold in a straight line. As many others here will tell you, though, HDB works for many.

            I am linking this post to the thread I started a few years ago on Baclofen and Anxiety -- in case you haven't seen it, and also for the benefit of lurkers and newbies who may find it of interest.

            https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ety-50827.html

            There is much more on the forum about the anxiety/alcohol/baclofen nexus. If you look around you will find it.

            You have come to the right place. Best of luck.

            Cass
            With profound appreciation to Dr Olivier Ameisen for his brilliant insight and courageous determination

            Comment


              #7
              Baclofen and the man on mars

              Thanks for the replies.

              April 8, 2013

              The dreams took a turn for the worse last night, as I encountered an ex-girlfriend who I desperately hope to never see or hear from again, and bad things happened. In the depths of my despair, I woke up, gladdened that none of it had been real, but damn, that was a shitty dream.

              I woke up after only six hours of sleep and couldn't get back to sleep. I took my first dose of 5 mg at 7 AM and made my way into work a couple of hours later.

              I was taken aback at how much more pronounced the side effects are when I'm in the harsh bright light of my office, forced to keep thinking, keep solving problems, keep staring at my computer screen and comprehending and interacting with what's on it. Over the weekend, I felt hazy, but functional. At work, on just 5 mg, I felt like I was not myself. Doped up, sedated.

              By lunchtime, I was feeling better, and ended up feeling brave and taking 12.5 mg as I had planned. 30 minutes later, I started to feel it come on, and within an hour it had washed over me very strongly. I endured a few dizzy spells, but powered through. After a couple of hours, the somnolence set in, and I spent the last part of my shift yawning and rubbing my eyes constantly. Despite all of this, I still managed to have a pretty productive day, although I felt doped up the whole time.

              Got home, took another 12.5 mg, and went out for drinks with some friends. Took another 5 mg when I got home, for 35 mg total today. Another wave of somnolence coming on...bedtime soon.

              Comment


                #8
                Baclofen and the man on mars

                Hi MoM

                I agree, great introductory post. I gave TSM a good go for 17 mths before I had to admit it backfired/didn't work for me.
                I have been taking bac for 10 mths already. Have struggled with the SE's for the last 5 months. I expect I struggled earlier too, but in hindsight the first few months seemed relatively easy. I still have not given up yet. Am still optimistic that one day I will be free of this debilitating affliction.

                Al the best
                Sticky :welcome:

                Comment


                  #9
                  Baclofen and the man on mars

                  The dreams are quite vivid for me too (I started a few days before you)...I'm sure your SE's improve a bit as you go. Hang in there and good luck!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Baclofen and the man on mars

                    Hey man on mars

                    It was a bit to read through so maybe I missed it. Are you really counting how much you are taking?
                    Keep a journal at least.

                    I would do a structured program. Say 10mg more every 4 days or so unless you are only getting crazy dreams from it. You get used to those. I still get them to be honest.

                    Take your time. Baclofen carries some baggage too. Be sure you have lots of supplies please. If you have a panic attack have something to help you with that. No person can really help you. At least not in my case when I was at a high dose. Just know the signs.

                    Good luck. And remember the less you drink the less SE's you get. Easy to say, I know.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Baclofen and the man on mars

                      COSGringo;1490139 wrote: It was a bit to read through so maybe I missed it. Are you really counting how much you are taking?
                      Keep a journal at least.

                      I would do a structured program. Say 10mg more every 4 days or so unless you are only getting crazy dreams from it. You get used to those. I still get them to be honest.
                      Yes, I'm logging it meticulously. I have been kind of haphazard with the dosage increases thus far, though. The amount I've had each day for the first 5 days was 20, 40, 30, 35, 42.5. Yeah, 42.5. Read on.

                      Yesterday, I noticed the side effects were a lot less pronounced than on Monday. Feeling adventurous, after work, I took 12.5 mg when I got home (on top of the 17.5 total between morning and lunchtime) and another 12.5 mg before I went to bed for 42.5 mg total. This was probably a bad idea, as this morning the side effects were just as bad if not worse than Monday, and that was after taking just 5 mg. I took 12.5 again a couple hours after lunch, and experienced a lot of dizziness. Basically a repeat of Monday's side effects.

                      However, today I've noticed that my mild nearsightedness is worse. This makes sense, as baclofen is a muscle relaxant, and if the muscles that contract the lenses in your eyes are relaxed, they won't adjust the lenses properly. I'm still razor sharp in my bubble of clarity, but what used to be a ~10 foot bubble of clarity is now more like ~6 feet. I wear glasses when I drive, not out of necessity, but just because it's nice to be able to read signs a little bit sooner, and when wearing them today they still gave me clarity. I notice on some websites, symptoms of "overdose" include dizziness and blurred vision, so I'm attributing today's round of side effects to my brain not responding well to my adventurous decision to take that extra 12.5 mg last night.

                      I'm planning to drop back to 30 mg for a few days and see what happens. If my vision returns to normal, and other side effects start to decrease, I will cautiously begin to increase the dose again, this time in a much more methodical pattern. I'm thinking +5 mg every second or third day, until I'm comfortable with increasing that rate.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Baclofen and the man on mars

                        Excellent man on mars. I mean that you are logging everything. Sometimes you do have to play with those doses. Sometimes you have to suffer through them and they go away.

                        Just do what works and what's right for you.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Baclofen and the man on mars

                          COSGringo;1490139 wrote: Good luck. And remember the less you drink the less SE's you get. Easy to say, I know.
                          Is this true? If so, it makes sense, because last night I must have had about 15 drinks, and today the SE's were awful. Mainly a few transient dizzy spells and that same stoned/drugged-out feeling that I've been getting every day. Surprisingly, it didn't feel like a normal hangover, it was like the normal mental effects I get from a hangover (mainly depression and vertigo) were instead manifested as stronger baclofen side effects.

                          Cognitive side effects still very perceptible even on 5 mg. Feels kind of like smoking pot, though not pleasant at all. I notice I have trouble finding the right word when I'm in conversations, and sometimes stumble over my words as I'm talking. I think part of that is just my brain being fried from the previous night's drinking. Crazy dreams seem to have mostly ceased. I don't remember any dreams at all from last night. Kind of a bummer -- if I had to pick one SE to persist, it'd be that one. A new SE today was sensitivity to sound. Hearing felt weird all day, and even hearing myself speak at normal conversational volume seemed really loud.

                          30 mg yesterday. 30 today. Vision seems to have gone back to normal. Last night's drinking was a lot even for me. I've decided not to drink tonight, if I can manage it. It's interesting, I can already feel that my feelings toward alcohol are changing. The thought process was something like, "Wow, I really got out of control last night. I felt like shit today. If I drink tonight, I'm going to have to drink a lot again to get any feeling of pleasure from it, and then I'll end up really hung over again. I suppose I won't drink, then." Just a normal, logical train of thought, playing itself out, seemed natural. The prospect of an AF night didn't trigger an upwelling of anxiety like usual. Normally, that thought process ends with, "Well, I guess I will try to not drink so much tonight," which I know will probably not actually happen. It's on my mind, but the craving is diminished compared to the couple of AF nights I managed back when I was taking naltrexone.

                          Good night to start a new book, might take my mind off of drinking. I usually get really locked-in when I read and the hours just roll by.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Baclofen and the man on mars

                            Well, I didn't succeed in my goal of not drinking, but I did keep it to just two drinks. Not bad. I went to bed at a reasonable hour and slept pretty well. The dreams came back. I think the reason I didn't have them the last couple of nights was that I had drank so much that I was pretty much knocked-out rather than properly sleeping -- little actual REM sleep was even occurring.

                            Today was good. Not being hung over for once was nice. Unfortunately, very nearsighted again. I think this is mainly a result of the fact that I spend 90-95% of each day with a computer a foot or two in front of my face, or otherwise working on things right up close to me. When I go back to looking at things further away, the muscles in my eyes are relaxed due to the baclofen, and do not work hard enough to adjust the lenses to bring them into focus, so my regular nearsightedness is amplified. It doesn't bother me that much, but I definitely need to start wearing my glasses when I go shopping, because the grocery store was frustratingly hard to navigate not being able to clearly read the aisle signs from a distance.

                            I intend to stick with 30 mg for awhile, as I said before. The somnolence is gone, and the "stoned" feeling was less pronounced today, but the sensitivity to sound persisted mostly, and my appetite is not great.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Baclofen and the man on mars

                              Man on mars-

                              How are you doing?

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