Baclofen -Help needed-Please

[Colin]

Baclofen -Help needed-Please

Excellent Cassander. I will support any political ambitions you have.

[Cassander]

Baclofen -Help needed-Please

Colin;1503891 wrote: Excellent Cassander. I will support any political ambitions you have.

Hey, thanks, Colin. You're not registered to vote in Connecticut, are you?

Not to worry...our electoral system here is all f'ed up, too...

[Cassander]

Baclofen -Help needed-Please

john doe;1503884 wrote: From the little I now about the US it seems that families breaking up is sort of the norm? It seems like once kids go off to university they're pretty much gone for good especially it being such a large country.

Here in Ireland its the norm for family's to live within walking distance and not so out of the ordinary for grandparents to live in the same street as their kids. I know families who live next door to each other and maybe another living across the street.

There is a sense of community spirit. Probably comes from living in a housing estate most of my life. Its nice though that people look out for each other.

Exactly.

[MaryGoRound]

Baclofen -Help needed-Please

Cassander;1503846 wrote:


What do I mean by knocking "dual income". Well, its not that I am opposed in any way to equality of the sexes or equal opportunity. I am not. But when the forces of the new economy dictate that father and mother must work outside the home, and the new community doesn't compensate for this reality by supporting the dual income family (with appropriate work hours and child care and leave policies) than I think the "family" is inevitably weakened.

Which brings me back home, back to here, back to this thread. If anxiety is a major reason why some people drink, and often drink too much, and if people who drink too much are at risk of becoming dependent upon and addicted to alcohol, then conditions which exacerbate anxiety are not good. I believe we have created and are creating a society which is increasingly anxious, increasingly estranged from its natural family and community, and increasingly at risk for the consequences of this anxiety.

Cass

Cass-

There is much I would like to respond to but I will just leave it to the family/dual income.

I am embarrassed that I do not have a job right now and I am anxious that I am not being a good role model for my kids. The house is clean,errands are done, garden looks great, food stocked, meals cooked, etc. but I am increasingly upset that I am a very poor role model for "success."

I know that was not the point of the post (in fact, it is the exact opposite) but I guess I am attached to the meritocracy.

I do wonder what if I have it wrong. It is not that I shouldn't work (my kids are teenagers and there is going to be a big College bill) but maybe I need to adjust my thinking.

[john doe]

Baclofen -Help needed-Please

MaryGoRound;1504295 wrote: The house is clean,errands are done, garden looks great, food stocked, meals cooked, etc. but I am increasingly upset that I am a very poor role model for "success."

You seem like a pretty good success to me Mary. If there's no jobs to be had there's not an awful lot you can do. My parents didn't work for most of my childhood. Not for want of trying though. It was Belfast in the 70s, no one had jobs. I've nothing but fond memories of my childhood.

I'd rather have a lovely parent than one with money who I never seen .

[Cassander]

Baclofen -Help needed-Please

MaryGoRound;1504295 wrote: Cass-

There is much I would like to respond to but I will just leave it to the family/dual income.

I am embarrassed that I do not have a job right now and I am anxious that I am not being a good role model for my kids. The house is clean,errands are done, garden looks great, food stocked, meals cooked, etc. but I am increasingly upset that I am a very poor role model for "success."

I know that was not the point of the post (in fact, it is the exact opposite) but I guess I am attached to the meritocracy.

I do wonder what if I have it wrong. It is not that I shouldn't work (my kids are teenagers and there is going to be a big College bill) but maybe I need to adjust my thinking.

Hi Mary

The dual income thing is very complicated and more so than I admitted in my post. I was simply trying to underscore the point that many aspects of modern life are very unfriendly to the traditional family. Even some aspects of things which are in general very good, like diversity, merit and equal opportunity.

I have followed your journey and sympathize with the issues you are experiencing. I find myself in the camp of those who believe that baclofen can cure the craving and give you a good shot at breaking the related habits.

I don't think that means that everything else automatically sorts out and finding peace, meaning, joy and fulfillment in life is often a challenge. But surely you will be in better shape to build a better life if you are not in the clutches of AL. The odds are certainly in your favor.

Cass

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Baclofen -Help needed-Please

I really, really hesitate to venture into this discussion. But I'd like to add a thought:

The "traditional family" as we understand it now is very much a product of one very small period in history and not necessarily a reflection of reality.

In a former incarnation I studied liberal arts, women's history in particular. (shocker, I know.) Latin American women's history in great detail, and by association, the history of women in many other developing nations, including the preindustrial and just post-industrial U.S.

June Cleaver is a figment of imagination. And women have always struggled (always) with the balance between work and family. It's not even specific to middle class America.

It can be very much related to having too much money, though. (In Belfast, when people were living in close knit family groups, the economy was terrible. This is true around the world and in all societies. Even ones where women's roles are [by our estimation] clearly defined as care-giver and not breadwinner.) What that suggests is that it is only in certain small areas of our society that the family is spread out and disassociated or disengaged.

But this is a matter for much debate. Just so long as the debate isn't based on what mass media says (the family is falling apart! Women are struggling like never before to balance blah, blah, blah) I think it's an interesting one.

Mary, work, don't work. Whatever. I say that with a smirk, because I'm right there with you, sister. But one step at a time (or something). :l

thanks for the thoughts.

[spiritwolf333]

Baclofen -Help needed-Please

Ne/Neva Eva;1503312 wrote: Your post really moved me, Spirit.



It won't. Really it won't. New sobriety is a whole new world, it's an adjustment, and it takes time. It is (as I'm sure you know) a really lovely place to live. Being tired makes it hard to see that. Even now, when I'm over-tired, there's a fog over the whole loveliness aspect of it. I am so thankful for sleep and a new dawn.
What's more, baclofen won't always be like this either. It'll become an ally. Again, time is the main factor. Slog through the days and suddenly the fog of baclofen lifts too.





The thing that makes me the most sad is that we (those of us who suffer from this disease) don't understand, and can't believe, that it's a disease and a medication can fix it. Even my family members that suffer from the disease and have seen the transformation don't believe or understand. It's heartbreaking. That said, I believe it's changing. I know it's changing.








:H

Congratulations on the 38 days. Baclofen or not, that's a wonderful accomplishment. Hang in there. It gets better and better and better.



And to you.

Neva ?
Thank you for your in-depth review and reply. (and what a cool-new avatar you have).

Finally, I have been getting 4 to 5 hours sleep each night? and I mean solid sleep. Vivid-Lucid dreams and roaring snores are now a part of nightly sleep (I love the dream part). There is no other place that I would rather be than sober. Each day, the true craving for a drink has all but vanished. Today, I walked in a convenience store, passed by coolers, looked at the beer, and the thought occurred, ?I can?t believe I use to drink sun up to sun down ?was that really me??. I have more energy and excitement for each day than I can ever remember having. It is almost as if I have swapped, in total, my drinking for research, work, and family time. Food and rest are playing a huge role in my new found sobriety (all made possible with Baclofen).

Several years ago I finally accepted, with great relief, that alcoholism truly is a disease. Furthermore, after stepping back and looking at the situation in its entirety, I understood and accepted that it affected my non-drinking family in an alcoholic way as well. With this being said, I delusionary thought that many other people would already know this fact. I now know, more than ever before, that most people don?t know, and quite frankly, don?t care. And no, no one is out shouting, hey Spirit got sober and isn?t that great. They either don?t care or possibly say ?dang, he should not have been drinking in the first place.?

The new information highway is creating a better and more understanding society- this I believe to be a fact.

Thanks for the congrats. Today is my middle son?s 23rd birthday and I am here to celebrate this day---SOBER. I don?t remember the last time I was sober on anyone?s birthday ?literally. What a wonderful gift I have received.

[spiritwolf333]

Baclofen -Help needed-Please

Cassander;1503325 wrote: Spirit, I do want to take friendly issue with this conclusion. I'm not sure this is necessarily the case. I do believe it is in the nature of alcoholics to blame themselves and to feel as if they are looked down upon as moral failings and dredges upon society. I am not sure that is how society looks at the alcoholic.

I fear the truth is, in a way, worse. I don't think the average guy in the street looks down on the alcoholic as a "moral" failure. I think the average guy doesn't look at all. In general, doesn't give a shit about your problem or my problem. If questioned, the average guy might have an opinion about alcoholics or she might not. If pressed, many might well agree that its probably a disease and not a moral failing.

But most simply don't know or care. "Its not my problem. Its yours...solve it yourself." I think a lot of human behavior can be explained by selfishness...by preoccupation with oneself. For millennia and maybe even up through and including today, humans have had to be selfish to survive. Its imprinted in our DNA. Imagine the hunter gatherer who said to a weaker fellow hunter, "I understand you are hungry. You take this deer I just killed."

Or imagine the co-worker who says of his alcoholic colleague, "I understand you are drunk and fucked up and hung over. Let me write your report and deal with your boss." I don't think the average guy even gets to the moral judgment.

And I don't think the average guy has given a minute's thought to the possibility that there is a treatment for alcoholism that is tantamount to a cure and that if the cure were made widely available perhaps hundreds of millions (if not billions) of dollars could be saved across the board, and countless lives, jobs and marriages saved and families kept intact.

As a society we can't even agree to make our government stop printing money we don't have, or limit the availability of handguns to make us safer, or limit the use of hydrocarbons to preserve our environment, or to allow women control over their bodies or etc etc. Its all really very sad, but if you want to look for the reasons, I would suggest selfishness is a big part of the answer.

Hi Cass ?
When I step back and look at the entire picture, I know that you are right about we humans and our being self-absorbed. I still believe that the majority of non-drinkers take a fast, non-thought out thought that alcoholics choose to be alcoholics and they are getting what they deserve ?alcoholics have made bad choices they say. We as true alcoholics know that we were/are doing something that is beyond choice if not treated.

Some time ago I read about evolutionary psychologists and their theory. I immediately understood and agreed wholeheartedly with their proposal. Selfishness, in my opinion, is the key to survival to a large degree. After all, it could be looked upon regarding my sobriety, as an act of selfishness. I have to put me and my sobriety above all else in life. If not, I will not be around much longer to help myself or anyone else.

As far as the colleague of the alcoholic; I believe that the vast majority of employers look at in a black or white fashion. If he or she is alcoholic, they have to go. It is not financially prudent on their part to think otherwise. In fact, I am ashamed to say, that as a formed business owner for over 25 years, I made those same decisions to let employees go based on the alcohol interference. The last 7 to 8 years, I changed my position and tried to help a few before finally terminating them. Who is the biggest harper valley hypocrite now, I ask myself sometimes.

Most people still do not accept alcoholism as a disease so they really don?t think that a ?cure? is needed. I am just glad to be part of a movement that knows and understands that there really is a cure.

In our society, you damn near have to be a narcissist to be a politician. Their decisions have to be based on what they think others will think of them. It?s all about them and their need to control others and remain in power.

I really had to ponder your post. You made some really thought provoking points.
Thank you.

[spiritwolf333]

Baclofen -Help needed-Please

Ne/Neva Eva;1503331 wrote: Cass and Spirit,

While I agree, I would also like to point out that alcoholics/addicts are a pain in the ass. To treat, to live with, to work with, to be friends with, to live next door to, to live in a city with. We are a notoriously (and understandably in some ways) difficult bunch.
just sayin'
Ne

And Neva -this is an undeniable truism. We are or can be a pain in the ass to many. And just as bad, if not worse, is the heartbreak we bring to others, including ourselves. What I do know is this; No one chooses to be in as much pain as we are typcially in at the end (or even way before the end). Furthermore, I don't believe that folks with physical maladies choose to be in their pain. The difference between the two types of pain, in my opinion, is that the physical pain sufferers are more accepted by society. Having had the responsibilty of taking care of a few folks who have been in physical pain, I sometimes would say to myself what a pain in the ass it is to take care of them. But I would never express that openly.

Regardless, alcohol misuse reaks havoc on us all and we are a pain in the ass and then we die.

Thanks for the thought provoction.

[spiritwolf333]

Baclofen -Help needed-Please

kronkcarr;1503645 wrote: spiritwolf333,

I've thought about your post all day. I agree with what Cassander says. Society is much more concerned with looking good and hitting the bottom line. I'd go into details about civilization and families spreading out, but I'd bore myself. We often have to make our own communities now. IMO many people just don't take the time to care. Many don't know how to care and many just buy into what they're told.

I'm in a "complementary health" field as "they" call it. When I came out of school in 1995 I was going to light the world on fire. I was going to educate drs and insurance companies to the cost effective and health benefits of my modality. Eighteen years later very little, if anything, has changed. Except the scope of my practice has been cut down due to MDs who fear I may take $ out of their pockets. I can't/don't sweat it anymore because I'd go nuts.

There are some people like Dr Ameisen who are doing what they can to awaken others. Are you familiar with Dr Gabor Mate (There's a backwards accent over the e.)? He's an MD from Vancouver who worked in Vancouver's Downtown Eastside neighborhood. He set up apartments and a clinic for severely addicted heroin addicts--not to change them but to give them a safe, accepting, sterile place to do what they do.

He's written a number of books that I've read. His In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters with Addiction is a good read. He looks at addiction holistically: personal history, emotional aspects, brain chemistry, neurological development, etc. He travels extensively to spread the word. In write ups about him he's consistently called compassionate. His web site is drgabormate.com.

Then on the flip of this, I just checked out the new book Clean by David Sheff. It's about how today's addiction treatment doesn't work and why. There's 1 chapter titled Treating Addiction with Drugs. It's 9 pages long and deals mainly with opiate addiction. There's 1 paragraph about drug treatment and alcoholism. He lists Naltrexone, Antabuse and Campral. And almost as an afterthought he mentions Topimax, baclofen, ondanse and gabapentin. So...

I hear you (and I thought you posted something similar elsewhere here, but I had no time to look). It is sad that the "powers that be today" pick and choose what citizens get. That's why it's good we're here and seekers can find our information and experiences. You can feedback to your clinic which could help the next person. When I started taking bac after reading Dr A's book I hadn't found MWO (found it in my third month). I'd started detailed journaling because I'd been told by patients that Dr A's book was a difficult read for a layperson, and my aim was to write an easier read. I have a lending library of his book and that's one way I can get the word out without telling my experience right.

I'm heading into my son's last band concert and thinking of you.

kronk

Hi Kronk - thank you for your post.
Please excuse my late reply.

---Point 1: "Many just buy into what they are told." I often forget this little known fact. I guess I just love doing research on just about any issue and I lose sight of the fact a lot of folks don't -and many find it just easier to go along to get along.

---Point 2: "Contempoary Health Field": They should be concerned. As more and more people learn the truth, fewer of their services will be required (or at least this is what they think). Everything is changing all the time so I try to become more more willing to change so I don't "get left behind". I would have never had dreamed (nor accepted) 20 years ago that I would personally be involved in Yoga, Meditation, nutritional supplements, alternative medicines, Neuro-Feedback, Arts, and tree-hugging. Funny how alcohol drove me into having the most open mind a human being could have.

---Point 3: Dr. Gabor Mate from Vancouver: Wow, this past week I have several of his videos. He explains a lot of concepts in such a remarkable way. He now has me as an avid follower. He is the type of person that I consider an unsung hero and is the type of person that I would like to become -humilty included. Kronk, it is so important that you and we keep getting the word out. There is no telling how many people will benefit from your just letting people like me know about Dr. Mate. Thank you.

---Point 4: I have not gotten around to David Sheff. Dr. Mate has offered plenty of insight into my camp.

Kronk, through my prior attempts at recovery, I failed to adequatly document my experiences and I think some of reads would have been useful for me today. This time around, I have documented my every day experiences. I think this time is the result of Baclofen allowing me to slow down my nagging thought wheel.

As a side note about the clinic I attended; When I first arrived, they informed they wanted me to try Naltroxene first and then move to Baclofen. I then told them that I wasted 5 hours driving and that I was headed back home. I had sent them plenty of research and they had agreed upfront to the trial of Baclofen. Thank goodness they agreed to proceed with the Baclofen. I had already found two other places with a lot more to offer than they were offering and I was more than ready to go to them. And if truth be known, I would have spent my very last dime to fly to France to begin my Baclofen journey. MWO and other research had me convinced that Baclofen was going to my answer and it has not let me down.

I hope your son's final band concert went well.

Peace to You Kronk.

[Cassander]

Baclofen -Help needed-Please

spiritwolf333;1506336 wrote:
...
As a side note about the clinic I attended; When I first arrived, they informed they wanted me to try Naltroxene first and then move to Baclofen. I then told them that I wasted 5 hours driving and that I was headed back home. I had sent them plenty of research and they had agreed upfront to the trial of Baclofen. Thank goodness they agreed to proceed with the Baclofen. I had already found two other places with a lot more to offer than they were offering and I was more than ready to go to them. And if truth be known, I would have spent my very last dime to fly to France to begin my Baclofen journey. MWO and other research had me convinced that Baclofen was going to my answer and it has not let me down.

...

Hi Spirit

Apologies in advance if you have already posted on this topic (if so, please just let me know where)...

My impression is that you underwent a 30 day inpatient "baclofen rehab" at a residential alcohol treatment facility. If this is so I wonder if you would help me with some questions...

My questions are...

What was the protocol and daily routine for a 30 day inpatient "baclofen rehab"?

Was the facility familiar with Dr A's, Dr L's or the French titration protocols?

Did it include regularly scheduled support or psychotherapy? Did you see a psychiatrist or "alcohol counselors"?

Did you participate in group sessions with patients not on baclofen?

If so, what was the treatment protocol for the others?

Was your treatment supervised by physicians? If so, what specialties...

Did the regimen include regularly scheduled exercise?

Did they provide any information about optimum diet and sleep?

Was there a 12-step element?

Is the facility otherwise a 12-step facility?

I believe I have read that you were AF during your stay. Was this required?

Did you have any problematic side effects as you went up? If so, did the facility have a physician who made medical judgments regarding the side effects?

Were you taking any other prescription meds and did the facility offer medical advice about interactions?

Have you reached any conclusions regarding whether a baclofen rehab is better undertaken as an inpatient in a facility? (Better than, for example, at home, in secret, using an online pharmacy and/or Dr L and mwo for support)

Was there an educational component? Did they try to explain the brain chemistry of alcoholism, or how baclofen works or show you the baclofen brain video?

Was the facility (meaning each of the employees) familiar with Dr A's book? Had anyone read the supporting research (such as it is) about HDB?

Had the facility ever done a 30 day baclofen course before for anyone else?

How much did they charge you (omit answer if you are not comfortable answering)?

What is the name of the facility (omit answer if you are not comfortable answering)?

You mention that you had found two other places that "offered more" and were willing to provide a baclofen course of treatment. Please expand.

Hope you don't mind answering these questions and I hope you will!

Best,

Cassander

[kronkcarr]

Baclofen -Help needed-Please

Spirit,

Yeah--Dr Mate. I agree with all you say about him. He's written some interesting things about ADD also. I was looking over an old journal and back in Aug 2012 I was reading Mate and I wrote: "looking at Mate's writings--we're all addicted. Feels like we're all screwed." I'm sure glad I read Dr A in December!

Don't bother with David Sheff. He's the opposite sort of example!

Writing my experiences down has been amazing for me. Yesterday I looked back to how I was after 1 month on bac and how I am now after 5 months and my changes in thinking, confidence, self esteem and actions are amazing. Wow!

And so we keep on doing what we can to get the word out. The band concert was fine. I've always hated them and this time I figured out why--it's the awkwardness and vulnerability of the kids--and that they have no clue (thankfully) how life could go.

[spiritwolf333]

Baclofen -Help needed-Please

Cassander;1506477 wrote: Hi Spirit

Apologies in advance if you have already posted on this topic (if so, please just let me know where)...

My impression is that you underwent a 30 day inpatient "baclofen rehab" at a residential alcohol treatment facility. If this is so I wonder if you would help me with some questions...

My questions are...

What was the protocol and daily routine for a 30 day inpatient "baclofen rehab"?

Was the facility familiar with Dr A's, Dr L's or the French titration protocols?

Did it include regularly scheduled support or psychotherapy? Did you see a psychiatrist or "alcohol counselors"?

Did you participate in group sessions with patients not on baclofen?

If so, what was the treatment protocol for the others?

Was your treatment supervised by physicians? If so, what specialties...

Did the regimen include regularly scheduled exercise?

Did they provide any information about optimum diet and sleep?

Was there a 12-step element?

Is the facility otherwise a 12-step facility?

I believe I have read that you were AF during your stay. Was this required?

Did you have any problematic side effects as you went up? If so, did the facility have a physician who made medical judgments regarding the side effects?

Were you taking any other prescription meds and did the facility offer medical advice about interactions?

Have you reached any conclusions regarding whether a baclofen rehab is better undertaken as an inpatient in a facility? (Better than, for example, at home, in secret, using an online pharmacy and/or Dr L and mwo for support)

Was there an educational component? Did they try to explain the brain chemistry of alcoholism, or how baclofen works or show you the baclofen brain video?

Was the facility (meaning each of the employees) familiar with Dr A's book? Had anyone read the supporting research (such as it is) about HDB?

Had the facility ever done a 30 day baclofen course before for anyone else?

How much did they charge you (omit answer if you are not comfortable answering)?

What is the name of the facility (omit answer if you are not comfortable answering)?

You mention that you had found two other places that "offered more" and were willing to provide a baclofen course of treatment. Please expand.

Hope you don't mind answering these questions and I hope you will!

Best,

Cassander

Cass -I am working on my reply to you. I will be bac to you soon. Thanks

[spiritwolf333]

Baclofen -Help needed-Please

kronkcarr;1506502 wrote: Spirit,

Yeah--Dr Mate. I agree with all you say about him. He's written some interesting things about ADD also. I was looking over an old journal and back in Aug 2012 I was reading Mate and I wrote: "looking at Mate's writings--we're all addicted. Feels like we're all screwed." I'm sure glad I read Dr A in December!

Don't bother with David Sheff. He's the opposite sort of example!

Writing my experiences down has been amazing for me. Yesterday I looked back to how I was after 1 month on bac and how I am now after 5 months and my changes in thinking, confidence, self esteem and actions are amazing. Wow!

And so we keep on doing what we can to get the word out. The band concert was fine. I've always hated them and this time I figured out why--it's the awkwardness and vulnerability of the kids--and that they have no clue (thankfully) how life could go.

Hi Kronk -If you have not already done so, I hope you will consider posting your one month to five month experience. I would love to read what sounds like an incredible journey. Just hearing what you wrote in this post is inspiring...as you said: "my changes in thinking, confidence, self-esteem and actions are amazing. Wow!" These words are incredibly uplifting to me.

I needed to hear these exact words -tonight. You see, this week I have been wondering if this new found life of mine would slowly diminish and would this mean that I would somehow be back to square one. I, in some of my negative thought patterns, begin to question this miracle that I am experiencing. Imagine that; something (baclofen) that has so profoundly altered the course of my entire life ---and I start to question the reality of the experience?

Perhaps part of this questioning is the result of past attempts at the all allusive sobriety quest. This really does seem to be too good to be true. But now I say; it does not matter one rats ass about the future. I know where I am today and that?s ?vertical and I do know where I am (literally)?. I will cherish these last 46 Firewater free days and the associated freedom to live feelings.

I now find myself looking forward to waking up every day with an astonishing amount of excitement and hope ?in spite of all the financial and other challenges I now face. As I know you can understand, this was not near the case for me 47 days ago. And when you read where I say that ?I am grateful?, I mean this in the utmost sincere way that you can imagine.

Peace to Ya Kronk and thanks for ?paying it forward?. :thanks: