Concerns now that I ordered my bac

[fishcake]

Ok here we go:

First time I'll try bac. I'm going to titrate till I hopefully reach the switch.

Here's the thing, I am already sober living in a sober living house, but my goal is to be able to drink socially again. My concern is, after I reach the switch and maintain it, will I be able to drink moderately afterwards, with a lower dosage of bac per day? Or will I have to be at a high dose for the rest of my life if I decide to drink socially? Is that the price to pay? And if so, is it worth it?

[john doe]

Concerns now that I ordered my bac

Personally, I'm shooting for total abstinence and plan for the day I never look at a beer again. Moderation was always alien to me. 2,3,4 and I'm like, what's the point. Its like giving me a taste of something wonderful and then pulling it away.

Regarding maintenance dose. I think there's a different school of thought. Personanally, if you can drop down from your switch dose to maintain I don't see why you shouldn't as long as your still indifferent.

When and if you do hit indifference you'll probably not want to have a drink and that decision will be made for you.

[bleep]

Concerns now that I ordered my bac

It's a tricky one fishcake. Being sober through your titration will definitely make it easier for you. How you will know you are indifferent is uncertain. Do you get strong cravings? The only way to tell for certain that I can see is to have a drink at a certain level that you have decided on, and see if it is working. You would have to be prepared for the situation that might arise where you aren't yet indifferent though, and would then have to go higher.

Personally, in your position, I would continue to be AF, and go up on baclofen. Take it as it comes, and see how you are doing down the road, then reassess.

Best of luck.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Concerns now that I ordered my bac

Hi Fishcake.

I can relate to your concerns. It's confusing, for sure. There are two reasons for the confusion, I think. One is that there is conflicting information around here. The second is that traditional treatment insists on abstinence and that to "drink is to die" or that the first drink will take you right back to where you were.

The short answer is this: Results probably vary from person to person. How much baclofen you'll need to take to reach indifference, what dose you need to stay at in order to maintain indifference, whether or not you can comfortably drink without dramatic repercussion will be largely up to you. And also your chemistry, or something...

My husband spent a year in an Oxford House. (A sober house for men. Mandatory 90 in 90, mandatory drug tests, mandatory lots of things.) It wasn't long after he moved out that he started drinking again. Maybe a week? After a year of committed sobriety and participation in AA.

He has been contentedly sober (but not abstinent) for 2 years on baclofen. He drinks socially. He doesn't "moderate" his drinking, which implies that he would count drinks or determine when he'll drink next. If we want some wine with dinner, we open a bottle, have a glass and put the rest in the fridge. We generally use it to cook with. (Which is kind of painful, since when you only drink very occasionally, it's nice to drink a nice glass, right? And those tend to be much more expensive than the cheap crap we used to drink. But he makes a delicious red wine butter sauce...)

He went up to 320 mg to reach indifference, effortlessly quit drinking, and went down (very gradually) to 140 mg.

I went up to 320 mg, spent a lot of time jumping around, settled at about 140 mg, and have titrated down over 5 months to 100 mg. I drink occasionally too. I like it less than he does, so I drink less often, and less in general. Then again, he weighs 50 pounds more than I do, and is in the restaurant industry. Weekly wine dinners, the very occasional meet-up with his staff in a bar, and other drinking "opportunities" abound in that culture.

Many people want to "moderate" or "drink like a normal person" when they are controlled by cravings for alcohol. When you're not controlled by those cravings, it is a moot point. I didn't understand it, and definitely didn't believe it was true, before it happened to me. It is inexplicable. It will happen to you too, if you take the medication, and get to indifference. You can make decisions at that point about how/why/whether or not you want to include alcohol in your life.

Because baclofen works.

Glad you posted. Hang in there!

[john doe]

Concerns now that I ordered my bac

Reading your post again Fishcake, you have a great advantage as it your AF at this point.

I'm only a week in. My first day I drank 5l of 5% beer and by f**k did I suffer the next day. I honestly couldn't face another day like that especially combined with the SE's that are starting to creep in.

[YouKayBee]

Concerns now that I ordered my bac

Ne/Neva Eva;1504174 wrote: Hi Fishcake.

I can relate to your concerns. It's confusing, for sure. There are two reasons for the confusion, I think. One is that there is conflicting information around here. The second is that traditional treatment insists on abstinence and that to "drink is to die" or that the first drink will take you right back to where you were.

The short answer is this: Results probably vary from person to person. How much baclofen you'll need to take to reach indifference, what dose you need to stay at in order to maintain indifference, whether or not you can comfortably drink without dramatic repercussion will be largely up to you. And also your chemistry, or something...

My husband spent a year in an Oxford House. (A sober house for men. Mandatory 90 in 90, mandatory drug tests, mandatory lots of things.) It wasn't long after he moved out that he started drinking again. Maybe a week? After a year of committed sobriety and participation in AA.

He has been contentedly sober (but not abstinent) for 2 years on baclofen. He drinks socially. He doesn't "moderate" his drinking, which implies that he would count drinks or determine when he'll drink next. If we want some wine with dinner, we open a bottle, have a glass and put the rest in the fridge. We generally use it to cook with. (Which is kind of painful, since when you only drink very occasionally, it's nice to drink a nice glass, right? And those tend to be much more expensive than the cheap crap we used to drink. But he makes a delicious red wine butter sauce...)

He went up to 320 mg to reach indifference, effortlessly quit drinking, and went down (very gradually) to 140 mg.

I went up to 320 mg, spent a lot of time jumping around, settled at about 140 mg, and have titrated down over 5 months to 100 mg. I drink occasionally too. I like it less than he does, so I drink less often, and less in general. Then again, he weighs 50 pounds more than I do, and is in the restaurant industry. Weekly wine dinners, the very occasional meet-up with his staff in a bar, and other drinking "opportunities" abound in that culture.

Many people want to "moderate" or "drink like a normal person" when they are controlled by cravings for alcohol. When you're not controlled by those cravings, it is a moot point. I didn't understand it, and definitely didn't believe it was true, before it happened to me. It is inexplicable. It will happen to you too, if you take the medication, and get to indifference. You can make decisions at that point about how/why/whether or not you want to include alcohol in your life.

Because baclofen works.

Glad you posted. Hang in there!

This is very similar to the place I got to, once you no longer have those desires you start to ask "Why bother with alcohol?", and my lifestyle doesn't fit with drinking alcohol at the moment so I just don't force the point!

Moderation feels like a good idea when you have the drive, once it's gone it feels like a lot of effort for nothing much!

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Concerns now that I ordered my bac

Also, Fishcake, it occurs to me to ask what the alternative is?

It seems to me based on my two decades of trying to get sober that it is simply complete abstinence (also) coupled with a dramatic change in life and lifestyle.

I suppose if I (we) could have done that, I (we) wouldn't have ended up trying baclofen. But I couldn't. Neither could my husband.

[StuckinLA]

Concerns now that I ordered my bac

I titrated up on bac when I was sober, too. I was going to AA but not really participating, and just basically white-knuckling it with the support of my gp doc and a very wonderful counselor. But every time I got off the bus and walked past my bar on the way home, I'd break down. After 30 days of sobriety, it wasn't even anything like a craving--I was just sitting in my room, playing video games, and the thought hit me that I just knew I would drink again. Not that night, probably not the next, but at some future point. So I started on bac and over the next month remained AF and made my way up to 150mg/day.

150 and AF was a miraculous place to be. I felt wonderful, and confident, and couldn't believe it. Just to test it, I walked into a couple liquor stores, and couldn't believe I wasn't overcome by the urge to buy anything. At one, I picked up a bottle of Jamison and couldn't believe that it didn't really mean anything to me. But so then of course I bought it and brought it home. And a couple of days later I decided to try a glass. That was my 62nd day of sobriety, the longest I've been sober in my adult life. Then a few AF days later, I decided to get drunk.

After three weeks of a honeymoon with booze, I started my thread here. And while 150 was nice, I had to get to 240 for the switch, and, well, to make a long story short I'm around 100 right now and not what you might call "indifferent" to AL.

So it's a choice, and a process, and it's maddeningly different for everyone.

[fishcake]

Concerns now that I ordered my bac

John Doe wrote: Moderation was always alien to me. 2,3,4 and I'm like, what's the point. Its like giving me a taste of something wonderful and then pulling it away.
Was this moderation w/ bac or w/o? I just hope I can get some of the euphoria, even get drunk w/o any consequences (besides hangover) the next day.

bleep wrote: Do you get strong cravings? The only way to tell for certain that I can see is to have a drink at a certain level that you have decided on, and see if it is working. You would have to be prepared for the situation that might arise where you aren't yet indifferent though, and would then have to go higher.

Personally, in your position, I would continue to be AF, and go up on baclofen. Take it as it comes, and see how you are doing down the road, then reassess.

No, I don't have any strong cravings atm, it's always like that in the first months of sobriety (I'm 5 weeks sober now), and I am not under any medication. I'll continue to be AF, up the baclofen progressibely, until something something like 200+ Mg (depending on SEs). I will first try with one drink from there, if it goes well, then I'll try getting drunk.

Here is my question, for those who master moderation after the switch, is there a certain way to proceed if I decide to get drunk? For example lower the dose that day, and then next morning with a hangover, increase it to avoid getting drunk again? The reason I relapse, is because I've tried so many times to make radical changes in my life, first by striking out my entire social life (which was built around going out at night and having fun, meeting girls, etc.), it was an extremely difficult choice. I usually stay sober a 3-6 months then I go out, not because I crave alcohol, but because I miss the socializing and the girls and lastly, the euphoria. I've tried fellowshipping through AA, but it just isn't the same, the people are great, but you just do not get that intensive fun... All AA veterans (35+ yrs old) tell me I'll eventually learn how to have fun w/o alcohol, but I am 27 in a party city (San Francisco) and it is so hard to entertain myself with only dry hobbies (movies, dinners, making music, walks in nature, sport). I love sober activities, don't get me wrong, but at night on the weekends I feel this huge void: the thought of people having fun while I'm drinking tea with AA members or watching HBO really gets me. Not to mention that my job puts me in places where people drink around me a lot, with colleagues or for business.

StuckinLA wrote: At one, I picked up a bottle of Jamison and couldn't believe that it didn't really mean anything to me. But so then of course I bought it and brought it home. And a couple of days later I decided to try a glass. That was my 62nd day of sobriety, the longest I've been sober in my adult life. Then a few AF days later, I decided to get drunk.

After three weeks of a honeymoon with booze, I started my thread here. And while 150 was nice, I had to get to 240 for the switch, and, well, to make a long story short I'm around 100 right now and not what you might call "indifferent" to AL.

So, what happened exactly after you got drunk? Did you have to get wasted the next day? This three week honeymoon had to stop because your life was becoming unmanageable? Why are you still continuing around 100 if you are not indifferent to AL? Too big SEs?

Ne/Neva Eva wrote: He has been contentedly sober (but not abstinent) for 2 years on baclofen. He drinks socially. He doesn't "moderate" his drinking, which implies that he would count drinks or determine when he'll drink next [...] He went up to 320 mg to reach indifference, effortlessly quit drinking, and went down (very gradually) to 140 mg.

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Also, Fishcake, it occurs to me to ask what the alternative is?

It seems to me based on my two decades of trying to get sober that it is simply complete abstinence (also) coupled with a dramatic change in life and lifestyle.

I suppose if I (we) could have done that, I (we) wouldn't have ended up trying baclofen. But I couldn't. Neither could my husband.

So no consequences bc of his social drinking? When he went down to his 140mg maintenance dose, he continued socially drinking w/o any consequences? Did he ever get drunk for only one night, and not drink the next day after the switch and on maintenance dose? No real alternative besides binge drinking for weeks, then going to jail/hospital/losing job, then getting sober for 3-6 months, then repeat. I'd have to move to Tibet and become a monk to AF IV life... "I suppose if I (we) could have done that, I (we) wouldn't have ended up trying baclofen. But I couldn't. Neither could my husband." > totally understand!


Everybody, thanks for your responses. I did understand it is different for everyone, and I can only pray I can drink socially again. Total abstinence is really hard in the environment I'm in (Work, being young and single, having to move out of the sober living house eventually). I hope you understand it's not essentially for the euphoria, its for my social life. It would be even better if I can get drunk from time to time, regardless of how the hangover is, AS LONG AS IT DOESNT MAKE ME DRINK dozens of days in row 24/7 after, that's when I lose it and do crazy shit and become suicidal. For one night a week it's absolutely fine.

I ordered bac and should receive it in 2-3 weeks. The brand is Novartis (a little pricier, but didnt want to take any risks), did anyone have a bad experience with that brand specifically? I'll be AF for at least 70 days until I titrate to 200mg and test with one drink.

[StuckinLA]

Concerns now that I ordered my bac

Here's the part that's going to kill you: it's absolutely, completely, totally possible to have fun at a bar or a party when you're not drinking. It's a little weird, and foreign mostly to yourself, and even a little bit strange for the people you're hanging out with at first. But guess what--and this is from one of my very favorite AA speaker podcasts--they don't give a damn if you drink or not. It could be a little tough at a bar if you're trying to pick up a one-night stand, considering you'll look like a total creeper if she's getting drunk and you're not drinking, but other than that, it's fine. Even if you're holding a beer in your hand, the only one counting your drinks is you.

I'm at 100 right now because I'm on my way bac up. It's a long, long story, but I'm not the kind of guy who can just go up up up instantly. But I'm working on it, halfheartedly...

[fishcake]

Concerns now that I ordered my bac

Stuck, were there any consequences after getting drunk on bac? Did it make u go on a bender the next day?

[StuckinLA]

Concerns now that I ordered my bac

I know the answer you're looking for. And believe me, I'm looking for it too; that magical place where you can go out and get drunk, and enjoy it, and not have any consequences except for the expected hangover. I'm not entirely sure that it's out there, at least for me. But I'm still looking.

The sad truth is that when drinking and getting drunk feels good, I want to do it every day. When I'm taking enough bac to offset the withdrawal consequences of a night out, then I can drink, or force myself to get drunk, and not go on a bender the next day. But honestly, when I'm taking enough bac for that, drinking doesn't feel all that pleasurable. It's sort of a hassle, and I end up just feeling like I can't hang anymore. Because everyone around me at the bar is still drinking their norm, ya' know? And I'm there just having like one or two beers--even if I stay for hours--and turning down drinks or shots or whatever. And if someone does buy me a drink, then I'm like "crap, now I have to drink that." And then I just feel like a lameass.

Going down on your dose on a day you want to get drunk, and then going bac up the following day when you're hungover, is a seriously terrible idea. Hell, when my reduced drinking became so pronounced and bizarre that I had to finally explain everything to my bartender, she said the same thing. Once she was planning this big special for something, and was like "can't you just not take your medicine that day and get drunk?" And the answer is no, no you can't.

It's not a death sentence, it's just different. And I went off bac for a lot of reasons back in December, and since then I've had one or two 30 day stints sober, and a few benders. And I'm going bac up now, and at 100/day last night I got so drunk that I couldn't even get into my bar at the end of the night, and have cuts and scrapes from taking the staircase outside my apartment on the chin. Woke at noon, and am on like my fifth beer so far today.

You'll figure it out. It just is what it is. I mean, Ne's husband still likes to get a little drunk every so often. It is possible. I'm just one of those guys who always wants to do it every day. And when that's not what I want to do I get confused and don't really know who I am anymore.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Concerns now that I ordered my bac

Last weekend my husband and I went home to our old haunt. It went like this:

On Friday night we went out to dinner in a fancy restaurant. The chef knows my husband. The chef asked us if it was okay if he chose our meal. Of course we said yes. He sent out 7 courses. The sommelier chose a different wine for each. Some of them were 'tasting' glasses, so maybe 3 ounces? Some were not. My husband drank all 7 glasses. I drank 5 of them. (Just to be clear, that's very unusual, especially for me!)

The next day, other than the fact that I felt bloated and was full until after lunchtime, we were fine. I had a headache and took some ibuprofen. It took care of the headache.

We had a nice lunch, sans alcohol, in a different restaurant and then went to visit an old friend who now owns a bar. He insisted on making us his signature cocktail. I drank half, my husband drank the whole thing. Then we went to a different restaurant for dinner. They had house made liquors. We each had a cocktail before dinner. My husband had a beer with his dinner.

Then we went to see a play. The next morning, we got up, had breakfast out, went to a museum and spent the day with a different group of old friends. They drank. We didn't. Because we didn't want to.

The following day, Monday, we did some other stuff and then drove home. We haven't had a drink since last Saturday, or a desire, or a craving, for a drink . We never got drunk. (Well, we were probably drunk-ish the first night, but the meal was 5 hours long and the amount of food was astronomical.)

Tonight we hosted a dinner for family--8 people. They finished 4 bottles of wine. I didn't have any. I don't think my husband did either. I don't actually know how many bottles, come to think of it. I decided to check in here while I smoke before I clean up the kitchen. Which is a disaster. :upset:

Here's the thing: You can drink. But you won't care. I know you cannot understand it right now. But if you continue to overthink it, if you start by setting limits and expectations, guess what happens?

We could not stay sober, and not because we were 27 and living the vida loca. That's just shit we tell ourselves. I drank because I drank. There wasn't any rhyme or reason. On any given day, after a period of sobriety, it would seem like a good idea to have a drink. So I would. It never took me to the bottom of the barrel, or the gutter, but it always eventually led me back to a place I could not live in--the life of a drunk.

The first thing you have to do, Fish, is take the pills. The vast majority of people don't make it to indifference. If you do make it, that's a really good time to figure out when and why and how much you want to drink.

Frankly, I still don't believe it. But I also have absolutely no idea what it's like to be consumed by the thought of drinking anymore. None. I cannot tap into that. I really hope you get here. It starts with the meds.

Good luck and hang in there.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Concerns now that I ordered my bac

Two last thoughts:

I really think it's not such a good idea to see a medication to treat alcoholism as a way to drink. That doesn't make sense. If you can stay sober, and content, then that seems like a better option, doesn't it? If you can't, and you don't want to be a drunk, (my word for myself, I'm not calling you names!) then planning on drinking is counterproductive. Right? Or am I way off base? Bleep would be able to say this better.

Ne/Neva Eva;1504400 wrote:
The first thing you have to do, Fish, is take the pills. The vast majority of people don't make it to indifference. If you do make it, that's a really good time to figure out when and why and how much you want to drink.

Forgive the fact that I'm quoting myself. I respect that you're asking questions. It's a smart thing to do. Any and all of them. Some of the other questions might be related to how you're going to take the pills, under what protocol, how you're going to deal with SEs when they arise, what you're going to do with your time, how you're going to explain things to the people who care about you or have a vested interest in your sobriety--particularly the 12-steppers.

Enough procrastination on my part! I'm going to do the dishes.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Concerns now that I ordered my bac

I'll do the kitchen in the morning.

What I ask myself now is:
How will I know if I'm endangering my long term happiness, health and well being by drinking?

What will I do if I wake up one morning and have that feeling take over my life again?

What can I do to make sure that it never, ever happens again?

And what I've always asked:
How does it work?
Why does it work?
How can I make sure I'm one of the few people that it works for, that it will always work for?

Odds for alcoholics aren't great. Odds for alcoholics who have (what sounds like) dire consequences before the age of 30? hmmmm. I wouldn't even venture a guess. Not passing judgment, I was right there, too.