Where are the doctors?

[Cassander]

Where are the doctors?

For anyone interested in a deeper dive on the general question of why the medical profession is having such a hard time addressing baclofen treatment for alcoholism, specifically, and medical treatment of alcoholism and addiction in general, I offer the following article, entitled "Disseminating evidence-based practices in substance abuse treatment: A review with suggestions", which Ne gave me some time ago. It explains why practices which work are often not adopted for long periods of time and seems relevant to the many questions which this thread should address:

http://www.google.com/url?url=http:/...eCoL8kZNB9vOdg

[drb120]

Where are the doctors?

Red thread. You helped. By listening. That is it. You have no background in science. At all. You believe in astrology. Not science. You can't believe in both. You wanted my exact location and date of birth. I didn't feel comfortable.

Check out any unbiased drug site. Example Benzobuddies.com. Lots of people there know that GABA b agonists, and drugs that increase GABA so Baclofen,pregabalin,gabapentin, phenibut, can cause tolerance, and severe protracted withdrawal. Especially at the higher doses advocated here.

It's just irresponsible to make it seem like the drug has no abuse potential. And that's what people with addictive personalities tend to do. Abuse substances.

Your attempt to discredit me based on I didn't take all of your suggestions and I'm on human growth hormone are silly. I stabilized my dose. I titrated slowly. I took benzos as needed. I even took the same sleeping pill as you. I checked out your meditation sites. You have zero medical expertise and you were telling me I was getting knowledge that other people pay a lot for, for free.

[Xadrian]

Where are the doctors?

drb120;1533204 wrote: And that's what people with addictive personalities tend to do. Abuse substances.

Personally, I never abused any substance other than alcohol. And only beer.
Unless you would call 4 mugs of coffea a day abusive.

So your insinuation that people who were or are alcohol addicted will try to abuse other substances as well won't hold. At least in my case.

I just wanted to get rid of beer and I did. No intention to get addicted to or abuse other substances.
I think the reason baclofen is used by (most) people over here is because they have a disease and try to get well. Not trying to get high on a muscle relaxer.
If we wanted to get high, we probably took a more effective drug, wouldn't you think?

[drb120]

Where are the doctors?

Sure Xadrien. So it should be noted that only alcoholics without comorbidities are candidates for self treatment with baclofen. Because most alcoholics are not proclined to abuse other substances. Only alcohol. They can exercise extreme discipline with other Gaba stimulating compounds, and therefore are good candidates for self treatment.

Give me a break. Search Baclofen on Benzobuddies. Everyone says stay away from baclofen to help with benzo withdrawal. Why? Because is addictive and causes withdrawal just as bad. Plain and simple.

Sure their are easier ways to get high. I certainly was not trying to induce a state of hypomania when I started baclofen. I was trying to quit booze, which I did. But now I have a worse problem. And I continue to believe alcoholics as a group are the worst candidate for self treatment. Particularly with high doses of an obviously addictive compound.

[Xadrian]

Where are the doctors?

drb120;1533372 wrote: Sure Xadrien. So it should be noted that only alcoholics without comorbidities are candidates for self treatment with baclofen. Because most alcoholics are not proclined to abuse other substances. Only alcohol. They can exercise extreme discipline with other Gaba stimulating compounds, and therefore are good candidates for self treatment.

Give me a break. Search Baclofen on Benzobuddies. Everyone says stay away from baclofen to help with benzo withdrawal. Why? Because is addictive and causes withdrawal just as bad. Plain and simple.

Sure their are easier ways to get high. I certainly was not trying to induce a state of hypomania when I started baclofen. I was trying to quit booze, which I did. But now I have a worse problem. And I continue to believe alcoholics as a group are the worst candidate for self treatment. Particularly with high doses of an obviously addictive compound.

I'm really sorry you apparently have a huge problem to get off baclofen, but except for yourself and some supposed trolls, I have seen very few people over here that state they are addicted to baclofen.

Like I posted elsewhere on this forum, addictive substances change brain chemistry by flooding the brain's so-called "reward circuit" with dopamine, a chemical that regulates pleasure, attention, cognition and other functions. They do this in one of two ways: imitating brain chemicals or causing the brain to release larger amounts of naturally occurring chemicals.

Baclofen does not do this. It just does the opposite. It mimics gamma-aminobutyric acid, which suppresses the dopamine levels.
You could say, baclofen couteracts the addictive capability of alcohol and cocaine.

So, I have no clue want went wrong in your specific case and I surely have no intention to speculate on that, but your experience with baclofen doesn't appear to be typical.

[drb120]

Where are the doctors?

Here are a couple others. Do a google search and you can find dozens just on this forum. Nevermind the other drug sites:

I have noticed that while on high doses of bac my self esteem goes rocket high. Actually I think faster, my thinking is clearer and the ideas that appear in my head are astonishingly good and profound
My wife calls me a megalomaniac when I am in such state. And I sleep 4 hours only.
I wonder if Dr. A. wrote his book under influence of baclofen, this very ideas and thoughts stimulant?-tto99

I experience the mania on bac. I have to keep at 30mg per dose, or else it gets out of hand.
I liken it to an amphetamine high. Does anyone else?
I am diagnosed as bipolar (don't know if there is a diagnosis for that, actually), so maybe this has something to do with it?
SRIs make me even more manic.
Sleeplessness ... definitely.-beatle

What the hell is this thing? I suffer from severe muscle spasms and as a result I got prescribed this Baclofen (tradename Lioresal).
I've been taking the two doses combined (50mg) for the past few days at night right before sleep time, that is to avoid any sort of compulsive sedation/drowsiness. The good news is that I woke up next morning fully refreshed, with my muscle spasms almost fully gone. Shockingly, I also noticed how scary good my mood have become, to the point that everything I had a glimpse over could only conceive as positive, intriguingly compelling, regardless of how silly or trivial it actually is.
I couldn't make myself think negative at all, I was overly fucking happy, that I frankly started to feel a bit concerned. For the most part, I felt that life has finally become so damn easy to understand, my understanding of logic and level of consciousness were very much heightened -- I thought I knew it all. Everything was totally smooth. Felt energetic, scarily smart, charming and exceedingly witty, with a genuine sense of sarcasm. Confidence was remarkably elevated. For what it's worth I was finally able to feel the positives of caffeine. Very weird.
I thought I could solve any problem there is. Anxiety was wiped out and switched by supreme optimism/calmness. The first day I was fully fucking aware that this isn't normal, and that all will fade out the next time. Well much to my surprise, the effects for the next three days were overwhelmingly pronounced, even more than what I described the first day, to the point that I woke up this morning and started uncontrollably crying of how happy I was feeling. WTF IS THIS? I had this random thought: why would someone try to get high of some obscure chemical if a stupid muscle relaxing medicine can make you feel that good? The moral of this post, yeah it seems that Baclofen works decent for the treatment of muscle spasticity.-weevle

Sorry Xadrien. I can post lots more. I am not unique.I am not Crazy, I don't have multiple personality disorders and the baclofen apologists can say whatever they want. There is a problem here.

[Xadrian]

Where are the doctors?

Yes, drb. Baclofen works on the brain and therfore can have brainrelated SE's.
If it raises ones self-esteem, it will for sure be an effect of the baclofen. Possibly one would have felt the same if the production of oned GABA would be at normal levels, instead of too low.

Possibly not. Who can tell.

But you keep telling that baclofen is addictive. Does, according to you, a drug that makes you feel better, automatically addictive?
None of the examples you gave here indicate that baclofen is addictive.

Your definition of addictive might be erroneous.

Of course you are not crazy. For some reason baclofen doesn't work for you and had bad effects on you.
I'm very sorry for that. But that's no reason to take "revenge" on people for who it worked and the people that could have their life saved by baclofen.

Of course, it is good to know that baclofen can also go wrong and of course it is good to warn people that they better do it with doctor's help. And of course it would be better if the doctors would help.
Most of the people who come here have already tried to get rid of alcohol for years and in all kind of ways, without success.
Most of them begged their doctors to prescribe them baclofen.
But the problem is that most doctors are ignorant of baclofen and refuse, so for many people self-administring might be the only option left to safe their lives.

No one here tells anyone that it is as safe as candy or that it will be easy or to expect it to work without severe SE's.
The SE's are described all over the forum here.

But to tell people that baclofen is addictive, that's a straight lie.

[drb120]

Where are the doctors?

We just went through this exercise. I think it was concluded that Baclofen causes physical dependence but is not technically "addictive" because blood pressure medication does too. Except forgetting your bp meds will only result in high bp. Which over a long period of time increases your risk of heart disease, stroke etc. The risk of immediate stroke is low in most people. Try cold turkeying high dose Baclofen and see how that works for you. Very life threatening. I don't care about the terminology much. And I don't care about revenge. Just the truth.

It can be abused. Your understanding of baclofens mechanism of action and effect on dopamine is incomplete. So is mine.

Alcoholics are more likely than non alcoholics to abuse it. That is self evident to me. Should be to you too. Even if not abused the physical dependence is a major problem. If it is forgotten or lost. If a serious injury occurs requiring hospitalization. It can be life threatening. S I think self medication is a poor choice.

[Cassander]

Where are the doctors?

drb

I will ask you once, nicely, to please not post any more on this thread. I started it for a purpose and you are not contributing to the purpose. You may disagree, but, after all, I did start the thread and I think my view should be accorded some respect.

I would, again, nicely, suggest that you start your own thread to discuss the problems that you have with baclofen.

If you wish to be a constructive participant on mwo you will think about this and do it.

If you decide to attack me for making this suggestion I think all members will be able to draw their own conclusions, rather easily, about your true purpose coming here.

Thank you very much,

Cassander

[Lo0p]

Where are the doctors?

Do you think we could ask the moderators to sticky that list of doctors?

[Cassander]

Where are the doctors?

Lo0p;1533832 wrote: Do you think we could ask the moderators to sticky that list of doctors?

I'll try, Lo0p.

I'll send a PM to "Roberta Jewell".

Seriously

[spiritwolf333]

Where are the doctors?

Layman Answer to Doctors

I tend to over simplify, but I do so mainly for me to better understand. I believe the following to be the core dilemma surrounding DOCTORS and most people in general regarding alcoholism: (most people believe with certainty)

1. Alcohol makes you feel good (not a good idea-must be a sin)
(not all, but the majority drink to change the way they feel)
2. Drinking alcohol is a choice being made -to feel good (must be a sin)
3. Most people (including doctors) lack scientific education and the ability to understand.
4. Lacking the ability and access to information, many choose to place our dilemma in the category that needs no facts- faith and religion (yea, we r screwed-just ask the Salem Witches)
5. We are not screwed forever. Eventually, science and medicine come to the rescue.
6. AND THE GREAT FACT FOR US THAT TAKE BACLOFEN AND NO LONGER HAVE TO FACE THE ALCOHOL DEMON:
---We know for a fact (TRUTH) that BACLOFEN works to prevent relapse to alcoholism (if we choose not to drink -now that it is a choice)

IN THE END, TRUTH ALWAYS WINS OUT. It is a shame that the death toll has to continue until others find this truth.

Peace from BACLOFEN

[Cassander]

Where are the doctors?

Well, there is one less doctor now to carry the message. But as Le Monde says in it obituary of Dr Amiesen, "The adventure of Baclofen will have to continue without him."

[spiritwolf333]

Where are the doctors?

Hi Cass - I had not even thought about the number one doctor on the list. Another thought for the day.

[spacebebe01]

Where are the doctors?

[QUOTE=Cassander;1533620]drb

I will ask you once, nicely, to please not post any more on this thread. I started it for a purpose and you are not contributing to the purpose.

If you wish to be a constructive participant on mwo you will think about this and do it.

I dont usually read threads about baclofen for this reason but I really am appalled at the way you are talking to dbl, you really do have no right to tel him/her which threads he may post on. This is a free service and just because he disagrees with you and has a different experience from you doesnt mean he should be told where or where not to post. He/she is not being offensive or threatening in any way I have seen.

Sincemost of the thread seems tp consist anyway of cutting and pasting what someone else has said you make it irrelevant yourself by going through everything and finding what you agree with.

I have nothing against baclofen or anyone who uses it but just dont get the holy grail attitued to it, this is the only way, it sounds like AA to me.