Old Timers Respond

[Colin]

Old Timers Respond

At my current dose I seem to have alcohol completely under control but at the price noted by others : doziness, forgetfulness, imprecision, somnolence and a disappointing libido.
I drink alcohol nearly every day but I have never felt out of control.
Ejaculation is achieved much less frequently and without the instantaneous euphoria.
I am currently dropping the baclofen dose very slowly trying to find a better trade-off.

EDIT: Yes indeed bleep, baclofen is absolutely fucking miraculous.

[bleep]

Old Timers Respond

I screw up probably about one in ten as well. By screw up I mean get drunk. I regard it as a screw up these days because I have a choice, and to choose to do that is pretty dumb. It's nowhere near as bad as pre-baclofen, where nightly screw ups were the norm, and by screw up here I mean proper, full blown screw up. And also I think indifference is different for everyone. I read about some people who nurse a drink all night long, or who have a drink once every 6 months... My indifference is nothing like that. I generally don't drink, or I will have a glass of wine. I drink at the speed I always have, which is pretty fast, and then stop. Or not, in which case I get pissed.

I think a lot of people expect baclofen to physically stop them drinking entirely, but it doesn't work that way, at least not for me. That's why I normally suggest that people try the 30 day thing, to give indiffence a chance to hit them. Baclofen for me gives me a choice, that's it. I still have to make the right choices. I don't mean to suggest by that that its not absolutely fucking miraculous, because it is.


I've just read back through this answer, and its a garbled response to a very good question. I'm struggling to put what I want to say in the right words. I'll have another bash in the morning, hopefully the words will flow a little easier then.

[spiritwolf333]

Old Timers Respond

bleep;1533852 wrote:

I think a lot of people expect baclofen to physically stop them drinking entirely, but it doesn't work that way, at least not for me. That's why I normally suggest that people try the 30 day thing, to give indiffence a chance to hit them. Baclofen for me gives me a choice, that's it. I still have to make the right choices. I don't mean to suggest by that that its not absolutely fucking miraculous, because it is.


I've just read back through this answer, and its a garbled response to a very good question. I'm struggling to put what I want to say in the right words. I'll have another bash in the morning, hopefully the words will flow a little easier then.

Sounds pretty clear to me Bleep and a good summary.
1. Give alcohol a 30 day vacation
2. Baclofen gives us a choice to drink or not to drink
3. Baclofen is a damn miracle -many of us know this to be a fact.

[spiritwolf333]

Old Timers Respond

As far as a "switch" or "point of indifference", I am not really sure where mine occurred. I was af for about 33 days when I think it first occurred to me that alcohol might not be so intriguing anymore. It was about 5:30 pm on a beautiful spring afternoon and I was in a restaurant in a perfect setting for just *one*? drink? For the first time that I can ever remember, I thought the drink all the way through to the end. My thought process went something like:
1. I know that I probably won't stop at one
2. I am fairly damn relaxed right now -so a drink won't help any there
3. Yea, but I could catch a buzz right now and make the night that much better
4. Yea, but I feel pretty good right now. I am tired and it won't be long till bed
5. I have got some things I want to research before bed time -alcohol won't let me
6. I then repeat what I have read on MWO -you can drink just one and stop
7. I don't want to feel like crap tomorrow -why drink?
8. I've started eating some food now and have NO DESIRE to drink

All said and done, I did not drink that night. I believe I had a choice and probably could have stopped with just one. After weighing the options and all that I had been through to become AF, I was damn glad I did not drink. It would have subtracted from my evening -and worst of all, I would have disappointed my best friend and myself.

And when I woke up the next morning, I was not pissed at myself for having drank the night before.

Thanks for the opportunity JD to spew on your thread.

[JDizzle]

Old Timers Respond

Wolf dude that is precisely how I have felt. I love the step by step walk through of ur thoughts. Mine was just like that. Which is why I know I hit my switch at a lower dose. I came to think I had not hit my switch because I fucked up that one time. I know that is not true.

That is also a big motivator for this thread. It has been a month at 150 and my SEs blow donkeys. I am going freakin crazy dude. I have not really slept in a month. I went up from 120 because I believed my one drunk was a failure. Like cat had said... I just hadn't changed my habits. I also hadn't changed my mindset. I'm on my way back down to 120. I was drinking fine 90% of the time, sleeping, not nervous. I am the opposite now. Also at 120, my restless leg syndrome was cured...it's back at 150. I cannot take a higher dose than this and I honestly cannot take this dose anymore. I took one less tonight so today is day one of 140. I'm going down man and am happy as hell to be going down.... Gives me hope.

I want to thank everyone so far. This honestly I think has put me over the knowledge hump I was banging myself into. I guess instead of complaining all the time and acting like a dick, I should have been asking the right questions. I have and u all have given me what I needed. Maybe also I was wrong that a forum can be helpful.... Ok I was wrong (not easy for me to say ).

Bleep, wow. U totally blew me away. I needed to hear someone say that so bad. Not sure if u were garbled or not because I speak fluent garble. So maybe I am on the same program as u... Sounds just like where I was at. I just was under the impression a switch meant no more fuck ups...ever. The simplest thing that made a big impression is the switch is different for everyone. I know that is simple and it has probably been said in here 1000x but it hit me that time so thanks...and thnx for sharing what ur switch was.

Loop, I always just assume ur gonna steer me down the wrong path man. Sometimes I think ur not real. Maybe ur the alcoholic thinking that has been with me all these years and I'm just projecting u into this forum. If its any consolation, my alcoholic thinking is fucking hilarious. 24/7 shenanigans.

Red, I apologize for lashing out at ur comment. I have not been in a good place since I increased my dose. I will hopefully be able to begin to tone down the rhetoric. Well as much as I can... I'll always be me

:thanks:

[Colin]

Old Timers Respond

SSRIs are, however, more effective than placebo in reducing both alcohol consumption and symptoms of depression in Alcohol Dependent subjects with comorbid severe Major Depressive Disorder (MDD) (Cornelius, Salloum, Ehler, Jarrett, Cornelius, Perel, Thase & Black, 1997).

The above is from the hamsnet paper. My conclusion is - Don't selfprescribe SSRIs unless you can reliably selfdiagnose MDD.

[bleep]

Old Timers Respond

I'll try and be a bit more precise this time around. I'm glad what I said made sense to you though JD. For what it's worth, your fresh and honest and open posting style is a joy to read.

When I'm the right dose, drinking isn't really an issue. I don't really drink, and if I do, it's a glass of wine. I still like to go out every now and again with my mates, and in the beginning I thought it would involve a drop in dose, but it doesn't, all it takes is a desire to go out and drink, which for the most part baclofen removes. But that day rolls around, and we decide to go out...

After about 2 drinks, I get a message from my body saying that this stuff tastes like shit. I know however, that if I switch to water at this point, I'll be home in an hour, and I want to have a night out with my mates. As I said earlier, mine is not an indifference that caters to this mode of drinking. Exit baclofen and all the promises it makes. It's not quite as severe as that, in that I now seem to get drunk like a normal person, i.e. I get sleepy, and want to go home after a few too many, so drinking fuck-ups of the normal nature are a thing of the past. Prior to baclofen, each drink made me more and more alert and awake and drunk, and I would easily and always be the last man standing, or slouching anyway.

The whole thing is a work in progress. It's just now, there is actually progress. I never have meant to give the impression that all and sundry is and forever more will be perfect with my life, but it is unbelievably and undeniably better now that baclofen is a part of it.

[Cassander]

Old Timers Respond

The honesty and truthfullness in this thread is pretty inspiring...

[JDizzle]

Old Timers Respond

Cass, not only do I believe this level of honesty is the only way to give good advice to newcomers, but it is the only way to not fuck up new people. If we only share about the good times, newcomers think it is not working for them.

Bleep, I totally understood. I also get tired now. In high school is when I first started noticing everyone would be passed out and I would be wide awake drinking past sun up. I didn't at that time realize I had 20 years of hell in front of me.

[Diver]

Old Timers Respond

JD and all who have responded,

Thanks for starting this thread, it has helped me to understand that "the switch" is not a magical place where everything is great without temptation. Everytime that I drink more than I would like I thought about increasing my dose, but now realize that I just need to deal with some of my old habits that are still haunting me.

[Fred_The_Cat]

Old Timers Respond

Diver;1534324 wrote: JD and all who have responded,

Thanks for starting this thread, it has helped me to understand that "the switch" is not a magical place where everything is great without temptation. Everytime that I drink more than I would like I thought about increasing my dose, but now realize that I just need to deal with some of my old habits that are still haunting me.

I think a lot of the romantic views of the switch came from Dr Amesien's book. It was either because he viewed the event in retrospect or had hit bottom so hard that not wanting to drink truly was a glorious revelation to him.

For me, it was a bit underwhelming. I had not fucked up my life enough to desperately want to quit, so it was more of the beginning of an uncomfortable period of stark clarity.

In actuality, I never realized what an enormous change it was until I got the chance to look back on the past year. Just keep plugging away and worry about the present- the day will come when you are overwhelmed with how much better things have gotten.

[JDizzle]

Old Timers Respond

So a good question for new people reading this is how do u know when to stop upping ur dose? The suggestion of keep upping it until u never have another thought about alcohol is pretty dangerous... Not in an OD type of way, but to where people will not continue on with this program. Hell I switched and I nearly dropped out because of the fear of having to go up more.

Is there any possible way to tell people when to go up and when to pause?

My thought was that I had a few drinks and I KNEW something about my drinking was different. I still drank too much that night, but the next time I did not. But some people of course come in here abstinent and want help staying that way. I don't have any advice to offer there.

[Fred_The_Cat]

Old Timers Respond

Most people say they stop upping their dose when it "feels" right, but I used a prediction of 150mg based on my weight. For a lot of people, 150-80 is the sweet spot- I think there's a thread here on that.

When I got there, I stayed at the dose for two weeks before going down. In my opinion it is CRITICAL that you hang out at your switch dose for a couple of weeks so it can take hold. This is also the best time to work on your habits to prepare yourself for life afterwards.

[ignominious]

Old Timers Respond

I think the switch can be viewed as a physical event.

That "one drink after work" with the gang is harmless pleasure but for many of us we have known it will lead to outrageous behavior and a drunken stupor. We know this but go anyway. The thought process is repeated on the 2nd and 3rd drink - we know its not a good idea but we do it anyway.

Baclofen make it easier for electrons in our neurotransmitters to go off the beaten path and go to the front part (the reasoning part) of our brain. At this level it is a physical switch. When we are allowed to think about it with our non-alcoholic head we can decline the drink.

We all know that if you practice something then it becomes easier (maths, language, chat up lines). Our neurological pathways for doing these things are developed, synapses trigger more easily and we find that the difficult becomes second nature over time.

Getting the ability to "just say no" is certainly an epiphany for many but it is just the start. It gives us an opportunity to address our lives and issues without the alcohol fog.

I personally reduced to 50mg easily without desire to drink. I became complacent and would join friends and drink one for one with them. It made no difference to me. I think I retaught (repaired my bad nerve pathways) to enjoy drinking.

My tuppence worth.

[spiritwolf333]

Old Timers Respond

JD. I'm still enjoying this thread and in seeing some remarkable feedback -good for us all to read and continue to learn. The more I read, the more I recall about my own experience.

As IG and Fred recently pointed out about switches:

1. Physically -my brain has been rewired (and still in the process) how do I know this -I was able to feel and recognize that another drink was not going to bring about more pleasure or euphoria. Something has been rewired in my brain that actually tells me to stop chasing the high and stop trying to keep a high -some kind of new reality exists. My brain calculated this without me interfering in the process. Sounds crazy as hell (me, a separate entity from my brain?) but that is what happened and does happen.

2. Mentally - Habits are very powerful -for everyone. I found myself drinking against my will one time. I was tired, ready to eat, and rest. I still stopped by the store and bought a six pack. Drank one beer and chunked the remainder. I HAD ZERO INTEREST IN THE TASTE OR POTENTIAL POSITIVE EFFECT. It had to be an act of an old habit rearing its head trying to survive. I would compare it to replaying an old video game that I once was addicted to and then became sick of playing -but would go back every now and then and try to spark the same same level of enthusiasm as in the beginning. The game was just not firing the same brain activity that it once did.

And Fred -I have to believe you are right about the dosage -and a lot of it has to do with body weight. I think Ameisen was spot on in his initial weight-dosage calculations. My so called switch had to have occurred at around 170 to 180. Kept going to 220 in light of the reduction in anxiety. And now, I can reduce or increase my daily intake by at least 40 mg. the only hard felt SE is somnolence (and less anxiety if I up dosage).