Old Timers Respond

[bleep]

Old Timers Respond

There is absolutely no correlation between body weight and dosage. Giants have hit indifference at 50, and waifs have gone stratospheric in their dosage. Ameisen was theorizing based on the rats, because it was all he had to go by.

As to when you can tell, I found it fairly easy. I was midway through my 2nd or 3rd glass of wine of the evening, when suddenly I felt like a cup of tea. Choice appeared on the scene for the first time in my life. With practice, the choice becomes even easier. I could feel the switch coming before it arrived as well. I remember arguing with people then, who were guiding me through the process. I had been increasing very quickly, and strange things were happening. I then boldly announced that I was going to increase even faster, much to the shock of all involved, and in hindsight probably not the wisest thing I have ever done, but the reason I did this was because I could feel something happening to my brain. It's in my old thread somewhere.

What Fred says about a sweet spot is true as well. I think in France there are 2 recognised levels that a lot of people seem to find success at. I'm a bit hazy as to where they are, but I seem to remember 120 and 240, or something like that. There is a wealth of information being collected in France, the forum is well worth taking a look at if you can put up with Google translations.

[StuckinLA]

Old Timers Respond

180, 240, 320 are the most common I've seen on the threads. I believe mine was 240. At that dose, if I wasn't with friends or on MWO alcohol didn't enter my thoughts at all--habit or otherwise. The night before I realized that, of course, was disastrous.

A lot of the mental gymnastics involved, in my opinion, are about actually listening to your body tell you it doesn't want a drink, no matter the circumstances. That is completely foreign to us, and it can be kind of scary--'cause a drink was always the answer. So suddenly preferring tea can be so unexpected that you don't listen, and keep on trying to force booze down.

[JDizzle]

Old Timers Respond

I wonder if lingering SEs means ur too high. I had bad SE going up, but they went away and all was good... They went away in like one week. Then I decided to go up more and and the SE will not go away. They have been lingering for a month. I wonder if they will not go away, it means ur too high.

[JDizzle]

Old Timers Respond

Bleep, I just read ur thread. Ur a freakin lunatic dude!!! I nearly had to go to the ER just reading it. I get what u mean though... U don't seem to be as affected by it as others. I'm the polar opposite of that.

After reading that, I withdraw my theory about SEs lasting one month mean u r taking too much.

[Xadrian]

Old Timers Respond

bleep;1534421 wrote: There is absolutely no correlation between body weight and dosage. Giants have hit indifference at 50, and waifs have gone stratospheric in their dosage. Ameisen was theorizing based on the rats, because it was all he had to go by.

Bleepster is right.

The only correlation there seems to be is between the dose of baclofen and how much and for how long you were drinking.

So, someone who drank 6 beers every day for 5 years, probably will switch at a lower dose as someone who drank a bottle of whisky every day for 20 years.

This can be helpful to give you a very rough indication of where to expect your switch dose.

[Colin]

Old Timers Respond

Reggie;1534476 wrote:
This old post of mine raised its ugly head recently I presently stand by its sentiments to this very day
My contribution JD to your thread ..And I am a Ole timer verging on petrified at the moment:H
and the debate that ensued wonderful stuff i reckon anyway
https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ped-41460.html

Immediately after Reggie's post from 2010 is a post from Lo0p starting a long pedantic discussion concerning whether baclofen is or is not a cure. Does it matter?

Lo0p, do you still believe that baclofen is not a cure?

[Colin]

Old Timers Respond

Xadrian;1534515 wrote:
The only correlation there seems to be is between the dose of baclofen and how much and for how long you were drinking.

And a scientist partially agrees with you. It's not so much how long you have been drinking but how much immediately prior to starting baclofen.

"No element (BMI, sex, social, family, and professional features), with the exception of the amount of alcohol consumed before treatment, had a predictive value regarding the dose of baclofen needed, even though the inter-individual variability was very important."

Quoted from Suppression of Alcohol Dependence Using Baclofen: A 2-Year Observational Study of 100 Patients

From this paper the average male alcoholic was drinking a bottle of whisky a day and needed 150 mg baclofen to get the alcohol under control.

[Lo0p]

Old Timers Respond

I'd have to reread what I wrote to put it into... Wait, I remember what I wrote, I can visually see bits of it in my head and the whole thing will probably look like today's newspaper in a few minutes.

My current stance is that it is a cure. However, when treatment is complete, it leaves us in the state we were in prior to the manifestation of the disease in our lives. For most of us that is, via whatever genetic, environmental, psychological or other reasons, highly predisposed to acquiring it again. The catalyst for it is the same: the substance.

I think after our brains have healed (a gross simplification) if we were to choose to partake in the addictive substances that caused the disease to become active in the first place then it will manifest itself again. Barring that and other possible comorbidities, I believe the rest of our lives would remain under our control even after complete cessation of treatment with high dose baclofen. Which I believe should consist of a minimum of two years of indifference and maybe even abstinence.

Of course, this is just my opinion.

Would you mind if I reiterated our exchange on baclofenforalcoholism.com?

[Xadrian]

Old Timers Respond

Colin;1534549 wrote: And a scientist partially agrees with you. It's not so much how long you have been drinking but how much immediately prior to starting baclofen.

"No element (BMI, sex, social, family, and professional features), with the exception of the amount of alcohol consumed before treatment, had a predictive value regarding the dose of baclofen needed, even though the inter-individual variability was very important."

Quoted from Suppression of Alcohol Dependence Using Baclofen: A 2-Year Observational Study of 100 Patients

I cannot extract from the article you quoted that it is depending on how much you drank immediately prior to starting baclofen, but let me rephrase it to "the severity of alcohol dependency", also s phrase from the same article.

I probably based my statement on that article anyway.

[Colin]

Old Timers Respond

Lo0p;1534554 wrote:
Would you mind if I reiterated our exchange on baclofenforalcoholism.com?

Go ahead.

[Colin]

Old Timers Respond

Xadrian;1534557 wrote: I cannot extract from the article you quoted that it is depending on how much you drank immediately prior to starting baclofen, but let me rephrase it to "the severity of alcohol dependency", also s phrase from the same article.

I probably based my statement on that article anyway.

"Alcohol consumption recorded at each time-point was the average daily consumption of alcohol (in grams) during the 4 weeks before each visit ..."

No others quantities were measured.

[Xadrian]

Old Timers Respond

Colin;1534571 wrote: "Alcohol consumption recorded at each time-point was the average daily consumption of alcohol (in grams) during the 4 weeks before each visit ..."

No others quantities were measured.

and directly below it:

"(before enrollment, all patients were every day heavy drinkers, no one being in remission).

The day of the first visit, patients signed a form establishing their informed consent and stating that they suffered from a treatment resistant alcoholism and that they wished to try baclofen. “Treatment resistant alcoholism” means that all patients have been treated before for their alcoholism, in various ways, including medications, hospitalizations, rehab centers, Alcoholics Anonymous, and psychotherapies, and that these treatments failed."

So, the 4 weeks before each visit reflects to the period during the baclofen treatment.

Again, I cannot extract any conclusion regarding your statement that there would be a correlation between the switch dose of baclofen and the drinking immediately before the treatment.

[Colin]

Old Timers Respond

The original quotation

"No element (BMI, sex, social, family, and professional features), with the exception of the amount of alcohol consumed before treatment, had a predictive value , even though the inter-individual variability was very important."

His English is a bit tortuous but it can be rephrased as:-

The amount of alcohol consumed before treatment was the only variable with any predictive value (of the amount of baclofen required).


"So, the 4 weeks before each visit reflects to the period during the baclofen treatment."
Including the 4 weeks before the first visit before the treatment started.

[spiritwolf333]

Old Timers Respond

bleep;1534421 wrote: There is absolutely no correlation between body weight and dosage. Giants have hit indifference at 50, and waifs have gone stratospheric in their dosage. Ameisen was theorizing based on the rats, because it was all he had to go by.
.

Bleep -I know what you say is true and factual most times. (I highly respect your comments). In this particular case, i am interested to know if this statement has scientific data to back it up? Perhaps the experience of all those you about regarding their switch point is evidence enough. Regardless, your posts have always made perfect sense to me and have all seemed to based upon fact, personal experience, or both.

[Lo0p]

Old Timers Respond

I can see the words in my head but I can't see the title of the paper (it is 3:30 am here and I just woke up).

For a singular but significant documented account look here: Baclofen saved my life, still hoping for the "switch" - Baclofen for Alcoholism and Other Addictions

I haven't looked into it. Do your due diligence.
Bleep or I will probably have a better answer for you later.