My Doctor Called Baclofen a Fringe Treatment :(

[Want2BWell]

Hi all, I am 24 days sober and experiencing quite a bit of anxiety for the past 10 days. This typically precedes a relapse on pot, drinking the day after, and then it just gets ugly. Pills get involved at that point. Nodding/Passing out in a week or two.

I'm in an outpatient chemical dependency program at Kaiser here in San Francisco, CA USA. They are great and really helpful in general. They have group and individual sessions, education classes, and a medical department that includes psychiatrists.

I have been on Effexor 150MG and Nuerontin 900MG 3TD for a few months now. It's strange, but at about 15 days sober I started to feel really physically anxious. I feel like I'm on a low grade stimulant and it's not a euphoric feeling at all. It feels like bad cold medicine or something.

Anyways, I am trying to advocate for myself as far as the medicine goes. I have a lot of practice with the mindfulness practices and habits that can help me be sober and well, but have always just sort of taken whatever anti depressant/anxiety med that the doc wanted me too regardless of my intuition or experience.

I read The End of My Addiction and was really inspired by the info about the GABA2 receptors and the fact that Baclofen hits them. I have mentioned it twice to the doc and he just sort of changes the subject. He did say that he wanted to try all the standard stuff before trying any "fringe" treatments. I have a feeling that a large HMO like Kaiser will not be able to try out anything that is not big brand and has lots of controlled human trials to back it up. I almost went to another doc to get the bac but his treatment plan was going to be about 1200 Dollars US a month. I am not able to afford that. Buying Bac online from overseas and counting on it being available and good quality sounds like a bad plan for me. I also don't want to go behind the back of the good folks at the rehab. I understand their position about the Bac. Legally it's a way way off label thing for them to do. Especially at high doses.

For now I will work with the doc I have and can afford I guess. He did offer Campral (Acamprosate), as an option. It looks like it does at least affect this area of the brain although not the exact spot. I think I'll try it. Any positive experiences with this?

FYI, My goal is Abstinence. Moderation hasn't been successful for me recently, so clean is the way to go for now.

I may print out some literature and sneak it in to the hands of the medical department there regarding Bac. It just might have an effect!

[bleep]

My Doctor Called Baclofen a Fringe Treatment

Go behind their backs. The good folks at the rehab don't know what they are talking about, unfortunately.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

My Doctor Called Baclofen a Fringe Treatment

Hey, Want2BeWell.

Wow. I'm a bit shocked at your experience. Here's my opinion, for what it's worth:

Despite what we read so much about on MWO, baclofen is not a fringe treatment. There is sound evidence that it works. The research can be found on a different thread on a different forum. I would stick to anything by Addolorato, but the 2011 study about alcoholics with liver disease is particularly compelling.

Campral is about as effective in helping with abstinence as placebo. Meaning, it can help and has helped many, but there's an 80% chance that the person is going to drink alcoholically again. Those aren't very good odds.

Baclofen, on the other hand, is a well-tolerated, extremely effective medication. (Probably the most effective ever. And I'm not exaggerating.) The horror stories one reads should be cautionary tales. Don't be an idiot. And don't take it if it's not going to work for you.

I am not a doctor, have no medical experience or expertise. I would (personally) talk to my doctor about the side effects of effexor to see if that was increasing my anxiety.

I would also have a very difficult conversation with that psychiatrist. Perhaps suggest that s/he might want to read the information provided by baclofen and if s/he was still unwilling to happily and in a hugely supportive manner prescribe and oversee the baclofen protocol, I would request another doctor. It really is untenable that a doctor in large city is uneasy about prescribing a medication that the patient asks directly for and is (once again) extremely effective.

It's your life, of course, but contented sobriety is so comparatively awesome that I wouldn't put off what I know works to try a bunch of stuff that just might work if the stars and moon and my genetics and stress level are JUST right. just sayin'

Good luck and hang in there.

[Colin]

My Doctor Called Baclofen a Fringe Treatment

Unfortunately baclofen is still a fringe treatment outside France. These two papers might persuade your doctors to try a course of baclofen. The first is a scientific paper describing baclofen and alcoholism; the second gives advice on prescribing.

Suppression of Alcohol Dependence Using Baclofen: A 2-Year Observational Study of 100 Patients
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59463672/Prescribing-Guide-for-Baclofen-in-the-Treatment-of-Alcoholism-Don.pdf

Good luck.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

My Doctor Called Baclofen a Fringe Treatment

Okay. Call it what you want.

Baclofen is routinely prescribed by addictionologists in large metropolitan areas in the United States. While it's more likely to be prescribed in the big city, it's certainly not exclusive to those areas.

The reason that it is prescribed more often in those areas is related to several factors, including access to information. So if one has a psychiatrist and lives in a smaller town, then connecting that doctor to others, and to the research, is a really good approach.

(Please see this and many, many other threads: https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ate-78400.html)

Whatever the case and however you want to feel about it, it is pretty unreasonable for a doctor who is a specialist in addiction to not prescribe baclofen when the patient requests it. This is not to say that there aren't a whole lot of knuckle-headed doctors out there who haven't kept up with the information and/or aren't willing to educate themselves. But I think (generally) a very rational approach to the situation will most likely lead to the best outcome for people who are struggling in the moment and not trying to revolutionize the treatment industry. Of course, these are just my thoughts, though.

It can be a difficult discussion to have, though, in many ways. I really do wish you the best of luck, Want2BWell, whatever path you choose.

[Xadrian]

My Doctor Called Baclofen a Fringe Treatment

My psychiatrist told me that I am responsible for introducing baclofen for alcohol treatment on Aruba.
After seeing my own results, he decided to try it out on 2 in- and 2 outpatients

I have an appointment with him in August and I'm very curious about the results.


So, maybe you could suggest your doctor you could be a testcase for him?
Tell him that if he gives it a try and it turns out to be working (and it does), he could save a lot of lives.
And that is what doctors are supposed to do. isn't it?

[Cinders]

My Doctor Called Baclofen a Fringe Treatment

Want,

:welcome: to MWO.

Kaiser HMO is going to be difficult, as they are very strictly regulated, period.

You may find a psychiatrist in your area that you can pay out of pocket to help you. NOT a treatment doctor but a plain old psychiatrist.

As a last resort, you might also try Dr. Levin in Chicago. Others here know how to get in touch with him, etc.

I really hate the thought of taking a medication like Baclofen without the care of a nearby doctor, myself.

As far as Baclofen being a "fringe" treatment. It has not become a generally accepted treatment for alcoholism in the US, BUT, my psychiatrist has gone to several medical conferences where it has been discussed as a very promising and useful treatment for both alcoholism and cocaine addiction.

She prescribed Baclofen for me and was not afraid of prescribing it for me.

Unfortunately, it is not a drug I can tolerate but she is not averse to prescribing to others in her care if she feels it will help them.

Like Ne, I am not a medical professional and I have also not recently slept in a Holiday Inn. So my advice is purely as a layman and I strongly believe good medical care supersedes anything I say.

Based on what I have seen here on MWO and in actual studies, Baclofen has a very good success rate. Not 100%, mind you, but much better than anything else I have read about.

Naltrexone has also worked for others here. You can pm UKBlonde about her experience with Naltrexone and read about others on here. It does not seem to have nearly the success rate Baclofen does but you are a binge drinker and I believe UKBlonde was also. You might get your Kaiser doctor to prescribe Naltrexone for you because it is approved in the US as a treatment for alcoholism. You would also have to omit from your doctor how you are going to use it. Read The Sinclair Method and you will understand.

I, too, am on high dose Gabapentin (Neurontin) as a prophylactic treatment for my cluster headaches. btw. Some suggest it helps with alcohol cravings but I never have experienced that SE, unfortunately.

Campral did nothing for my cravings except give me severe stomach cramps and diarrhea. It was a good short term weight loss tool and that's about it.

I hth. I wish you all the luck in finding a solution to your drinking. We all know and have experienced what this addiction can do to our lives.

Cindi

[Want2BWell]

My Doctor Called Baclofen a Fringe Treatment

Thanks for all the input so far everyone.

I traced back the days to the day that this physical feeling of anxiety started and it coincided with picking up a new prescription of the Gabapentin in tablet rather than caplet form. A few days later under the stress of anxiety I spoke with the doctor who said we should try adding more of the Gabapentin. The anxiety seemed to actually get worse. Seeing as how I have been on the Effexor for 3 months with no sign of physical anxiety and no change in dose I decided to let him know that I want to taper down the Gabapentin. I cut down the dose by a third and the symptoms are less! I'll taper down over the next week while I start the Campral.

I will also call the good Dr L to chat. Not sure what he charges or if it's the right option for me, but I think it can't hurt to find out what he thinks.

I'll try the Campral for now and consider options for going forward. I like another poster in this thread am wary of taking a medication that I don't have local doctor support for no matter how much it might help. I fear running out and going through a rapid detox or having a rare adverse reaction and no doctor to back me up. It's a bummer but I can't see a simple solution for now.

[bleep]

My Doctor Called Baclofen a Fringe Treatment

Go behind their backs.

It doesn't get much simpler.

[terryk]

My Doctor Called Baclofen a Fringe Treatment

chaoss;1536860 wrote: fringe treatment thats all what it is!
Chaoss = Chaos = Baclofan = desperados = BenzoControlBoard = A sad individual who didn't find success with baclofen, and now regularly trolls here to attempt to ruin other people's pursuit of recovery with it.

chaos;1379613 wrote: The good ol' mirta is taking me away, goodnight!

baclofan;1366072 wrote: Apparently the good ol' Mirta could be quite helpful again:
http://www.journalsleep.org/Articles/300105.pdf

chaos;1508737 wrote: I do understand HDB concept, but recently this forum evolved into sleeping pill 'cabinet'
with predominant brand mentioned as seroquel...

Dear members of this forum...just google a bit please!!!

There must had been a valid reason for FDA to fine sero manufacturer astronomical sum of $$$ for 'misbranding' it as a sleep aid...!!!

It is a heavy duty antipsychotic, with a hole bunch of of SE in the long run.

baclofan;1492559 wrote: Rapid tolerance build up, addiction potential, horrible w/d...just 'google' a bit..

baclofan;1493532 wrote:

The ol' good mirta just quit on me after 3 - 4 months and it's quite common.

Again just 'google' a bit...

chaos;1508703 wrote: Don't you have anything better to do in your 'sober' time XXXXX than qoute one by one all of my posts from my thread that I wasn't going to delete....it must have been quite time consuming...

Btw, who's infamous of deleting own posts on this forum...Eva?

Ne, or is it Neva...how's the combo of xanax and adderal treating you these days?!

baclofan;1373229 wrote: Dear XXXXX, I hate to be mean but you sound like going through adderall overdose and/or xanax w/d again.

The birth of Chaos?:

Ne/Neva Eva;1354084 wrote: So for those thinking about using a short acting benzo, for a short period of time (less than a month) please do the research. For those who have been taking a benzo for a long period of time, PLEASE DO THE RESEARCH. There is only one way to come off of that stuff. A very long slow taper down, coupled with the use of a short term benzo, is the only way to avoid the chemical chaos of withdrawal.

07-24-2012, 01:20 PM (Chaos joins MWO on 08-12-2012)
baclofan;1354250 wrote:
...guess you meant "A very long slow taper down, coupled with the use of a long term acting benzo, is the only way to avoid chemical chaos "

The birth of desperados? (now banned):

baclofan;1376813 wrote: The weight gain and unbelivable hunger...went away within 3-4 weeks, the dry mouth-lip SE is always there.

Ps, I'm such a guinea pig trying everything outthere...combining anticraving meds, switching between generic brands...in order to figure it out if they differ, and if so what way

Pss, I am such a hopeless case...therefore I've been called 'desperados'...

Baclofan's story:

baclofan;1223451 wrote: Hi all!

After being over the past fifteen years in four rehab tratment centres, countless times in supervised detoxes, couple of times in jail and yet still going on long lasting exhausting vodka binges, I looked at Baclofen as my only hope. Took me a while to find a clinic familiar with Baclofen for addiction. The slow titration begun five weeks ago.

I was drinking Al into the mid of the third week but to my amazement I wasn't rushing drinks anymore and the overall consumption was reduced by 40-50%. My regular Pdoc decided to add Naltrexone (50mg). The nightmare begun...two hours into my sleep I woke up halucinating visualising with closed eyes all sorts of people things and scenes one after another. I couldn't stop it, shake it off nor control it. It lasted for the rest of the night.
After that unbearable night I decided to stick to prescribed dose of Baclofen only (no more Nal nor Al) and started to experience shortly after the powerfull benefits of Bac:

The elimination of the ever existing snowball form of agitation and irritation - my main trigger to drink. Little things don't make me upset anymore. I used to be a worrywart.

Reduction of negative thoughts.
Feeling of being on more even keel.


Most important...No cravings for alcohol, ocasionally a thought of a drink enters my mind but exits in no time sort of on its own (I don't have to act upon that, fight that thought neither run away from it).


The cons:
Initial increase of anxiety - passes over a time.
Tiredness early in the evening.
It aint afrodisiac


Ps, hesitating to waste expensive Nal pills I've found out on the net quite alot intriguing info
regarding LDN (low dose naltrexone) linking it to boost immune system by stimulating the quantity of endorphins. So I've figured it shouldn't hurt and gave a try 2mg only at bedtime.

[Xadrian]

My Doctor Called Baclofen a Fringe Treatment

chaoss;1536860 wrote: fringe treatment thats all what it is!

Oh, boy. What a lot of fun it has to be, a 13 year old boy with a face full of acn?, frustrated because he's bullied by everybody in his class, all alone and anonymous behind his computer and typing nonsense on a serious forum, trying to frustrate recovering people.

I bet in a few years, you will be brave enough to tackle old ladies, breaking their hip and steal their purse.

Your mama must be very proud of you.

[RedThread12]

My Doctor Called Baclofen a Fringe Treatment

Well, what the hell . . . I'll throw in a $.02 or two. Personally, It would be a push for me to disagree that baclofen is a fringe treatment. There has been a lot of progress since Dr. Ameisen's -may he rest fully in primordial consciousness - book, but to throw it up as "mainstream" doesn't match my experience.

However - obviously, that has not stopped nor interfered a lot with a lot of hardy souls, some of whom you find here, from saving their lives with baclofen. It's an adventure, for sure. Nothing to take lightly nor off-handedly. I am fortunate; by the time I ordered baclofen illegally, and discovered that it WORKED, MWO'ers were researching and posting, and I took "the book" and print-outs of what research was available to my D.O., and she wrote a script, mostly just trusting me.

But here's a deal that I hope newcomers understand: physicians who know what is required for balofen to "work " are still very few and far apart. (Note Cassander's recent post.) As wild and wonderful as it would be, or would have been to have an addiction specialist tell me about baclofen when I was trying to check myself into de-tox, I would be dead if I had made that a pre-requisite for taking baclofen.

All of this, just to say, "what he said." Bleep. We did it ourselves. So can you. Good luck.

[Want2BWell]

My Doctor Called Baclofen a Fringe Treatment

All I can say is that you guys are great. I love the spirit of debate and all the shared experience. I'm on day 3 of Campral and not noticing much reduction in anxiety. I'm looking into some options and will stay away from the booze for now. I'm just keeping in mind how it usually goes when I drink. A few is never enough. I am having a lot of cravings for pot, which is easily obtained in San Francisco. There is a dispensary two blocks away. Sounds like a blessing but it can also bite you in the butt.

[bleep]

My Doctor Called Baclofen a Fringe Treatment

Despite my somewhat terse posts so far on this thread, I would also have to agree that outside France, baclofen is a fringe treatment. It breaks my heart. That is, thankfully, changing, but the sloth-like pace is terrifying. Anyway, semantics as far as I'm concerned.

I read your signature, and truly believe that baclofen is a vicious tool that will help with this process. It generally removes the risk of relapse, in the classical sense, and allows people to deal with their shit in a sober fashion. In some cases, there isn't that much shit to deal with, but the consequences of a life time of boozing and associated fuck ups generally leave people with a full plate to deal with. What becomes very clear (at least to me) is that when baclofen works, it removes any trace of this being a moral issue, or even a question of poor choices. If you can then accept that as true, that you are a victim of a disease that has as one of it's primary symptoms an uncontrollable desire to get plastered, it further helps in coming to terms with the whole affair.

That's not to say that baclofen is the be-all-and-end-all. Some people battle with the SE's, and are forced to stop taking it. For those that it works for, it works better than anything I have ever seen, or personally experienced.

[Colin]

My Doctor Called Baclofen a Fringe Treatment

bleep;1537286 wrote: Anyway, semantics as far as I'm concerned.

Absolutely! The punctuation, syntax and grammar can all be a little dodgy but if the semantics are wayward the discussion goes straight down the toilet.