Starting on liquid tomorrow thanks to Loop

[Lostinspace]

Spirit, terryk brought up Evan because cureforalcoholics’s ENTIRE post was to provide a link to a page where people were making conjectures as to how Evan died. Did you even read the link, or did you just say “good post” because it mentioned the Sinclair Method in the name of the link itself? I can't speak as to why he brought up that particular quote of Evan's, but it's certainly not coming from out of nowhere. cureforalcoholics brought up Evan's death quite randomly, out of nowhere.

And I’m tired of these indirect attacks of yours when speaking about me on other threads. Granted, it was on the thread “post TSM” that you said this, and not on this one, but I can only assume that when you reference people giving their “drunkalogs” that you’re talking about me, since no one else seems to be posting regularly these days. I don’t know how you could say that baclofen isn’t working for me. I went from a very serious liter and a half of vodka/bourbon a day habit, down to far less than a third of that amount (on the days that I do drink, which is not always - that, in itself, is a miracle).

Bac has already helped me to an extent that I never thought anything could. There’s no reason to think that it won’t continue to help if I’m allowed to keep titrating up until I hit my switch. I’m titrating at a snail’s pace compared to most people here, which is why I haven’t gotten there yet (and also a large part of why I have yet to experience a single negative side effect from bac). But don't worry. I'll be keeping my "drunkalogs" to myself from now on. I don't feel very comfortable posting here anymore, either.

[guapo]

Let's face facts here though. Most physicians, and the medical community in general view alcohol abuse as a moral failing, and a choice people make, albeit a bad one. Having some understanding of this, I can tell you that alcoholics are not viewed with sympathy, but rather as a troublesome bunch of people who are tough to fix, and likely to relapse, again and again and again. Not really any different overall than drug addicts in general.

The common method that state medical boards use to discipline alcohol abusing physicians is a straight 12 step program, with five years of urine tests. Does that suggest an enlightened view of medications to treat this condition?

There is Little funding for baclofen or naltrexone research, and Nalefene research is sketchy at best.

I see any effort to promote medications to help with this problem as positive, but there's a long way to go

[terryk]

The highly vocal proponents of baclofen, LOOP and Dr. Oliver, are both dead. Granted, they both had a serious problem with alcohol, but both apparently persisted in taking high-dose Baclofen. I am not aware of any deaths associated with naltrexone. Generally speaking, once control occurs with Naltrexone , it's ONLY taken if drinking, and for most, that is very infrequently.

Dr. AMEISEN died of a heart attack while taking a low(ish) maintenance dose of baclofen (60-120mg)

source:

http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2013/07/19/mort-d-olivier-ameisen-heraut-du-baclofene-contre-l-alcoolisme_3450378_3224.html

https://www.mywayout.org/community/showthread.php?48067-I-am-Dr-Ameisen-I-wish-to-share-some-news-with-you&p=48067&viewfull=1#post48067

As far as Evan is concerned, his cause of death has not been made public here - although it has been widely reported (by those close to him) that he was not drinking when he died.

Your inference, that baclofen is in any way responsible for either of their deaths, is erroneous and reprehensible - high-dose baclofen has a proven safety record, and death from baclofen ingestion, even in cases of extreme intentional overdose (of hundreds of milligrams) is exceedingly rare - there's *maybe* six or seven documented cases in journal articles indexed in the MEDLINES database at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/ , and I can't think of any that are absolutely attributable to baclofen alone.

-tk

[guapo]

Apparently, unless someone says something wildly enthusiastic about Baclofen,their input or ideas are meaningless here. OK, I get it.

[terryk]

Apparently, unless someone says something wildly enthusiastic about Baclofen,their input or ideas are meaningless here. OK, I get it.

Absolute bullshit.

[guapo]

I base my remarks in the condescending and vitriolic comments you make, this LOOP fellow, and someone named Otter, should anyone dare suggest that there's anything beyond the wonder drug baclofen . Reminds me of 12 step zealots. Wow !

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Woah, woah, woah.

This is a joke, right?

The original link is to a bunch of misinformed gossip. Did no-one read that? And Cure stops by just to remind us of our friend's death and post the gossip from some other place? Please. It's a person looking to create drama. It worked.

Guapo, please don't equate the drama created by Otter with the intentions of other people who post here regularly. Otter has always, and (apparently) will always, stop by here to tell us that we are (all) doing things all wrong and have no idea about anything.

The post he made that you reacted to on the other thread was so completely ridiculous I had a hard time believing anyone would respond. He linked to a COMMENT on another forum from someone who didn't make any sense to begin with. It was ludicrous. Silly, even. He's certifiable, and I've told him that in person, many, many times. He'll attack me here again if he sees this and I will continue to ignore him. Last time he really wounded me by suggesting that both Evan and Olivier Ameisen despised me before they died. He does things like that: Says things that are absolutely not true, just to hurt people. It looks like he did it to you, too. After 4 years, I can almost ignore him. I hope you can do a better job than I have.

[guapo]

I wonder, if baclofen is doing such a great job with anxiety and creating indifference to drinking, wouldn't those baclofonians now be happy as hell, and peaceful and relaxed?

Anyway, like at the buffet table, there's something for everyone. Just imagine if we all had to eat the one dish that the cook thought was best for all of us. What if it had mayonnaise on it !!

[spiritwolf333]

tmi

[terryk]

I base my remarks in the condescending and vitriolic comments you make, this LOOP fellow, and someone named Otter, should anyone dare suggest that there's anything beyond the wonder drug baclofen . Reminds me of 12 step zealots. Wow !

My comments were hardly vitriolic and condescending, and they had nothing to do with anyone suggesting "that there's anything beyond the wonder drug baclofen." On the contrary, I stated outright that "I have taken both naltrexone and nalmefene, though I did not practice TSM with either. While I don't have any empirical evidence that they impacted my alcohol abuse in a positive way, I do not discount the notion that they may be able to help others."

I don't know what you're trying to pull here guapo (with or without that dimwit's help), but CureForAlcoholics' post was not "in the spirit of promoting awareness of naltrexone, nothing more." It was an announcement, on another site, of the death of an MWO forum member (over a year ago) including baseless speculation as to the cause of his death. It was in incredibly poor taste and had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH PROMOTING NALTREXONE OR TSM unless, of course, the intent was to denigrate baclofen by implying that it was the cause of his death - which incidentally, you pretty much go on to do with:

The highly vocal proponents of baclofen, LOOP and Dr. Oliver, are both dead. Granted, they both had a serious problem with alcohol, but both apparently persisted in taking high-dose Baclofen. I am not aware of any deaths associated with naltrexone. Generally speaking, once control occurs with Naltrexone , it's ONLY taken if drinking, and for most, that is very infrequently.

I called bullshit on that here

Apparently, unless someone says something wildly enthusiastic about Baclofen,their input or ideas are meaningless here. OK, I get it.

Nope. your input and ideas become meaningless when it becomes apparent that you lack the decency to understand that it's repugnant to open old wounds, parade the dead around, and fear monger in the name of promoting your cause.


-tk

[StuckInCA]

Good sweet merciful Christ, Spirit. I know you have these impulses and desires to speak your mind, but you probably should most of the time stop yourself from doing that.

Edit: I know you mean well but pick your battles, man. And TerryK is not one of those battles. He is better read in the literature, understands the neuroscience better, and is smarter than most, if not all, of us. So really, let that one go. It's OK to accept there's someone out there smarter than you. It happens.

I look around me, and statistically speaking out of every 100 people I see there's going to be 3 or 4 that are smarter than I am. And that pisses me off. I get it. But you just gotta let it go. Because TK knows what he's talking about.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Plus, Terryk is a really nice person. I know he would hate that I wrote that about him, but it's true.

Guapo, I really think you misunderstood the original post, which had nothing to do with naltrexone or TSM. Neither did Terryk's response to it.

This isn't about terryk, though. It's really gone on long enough. Or should I just continue to ignore it???

Otter's posts don't even make sense. I understand that you guys are sensitive to naltrexone. But read the posts he made! He linked to another forum where some idiot posted about taking naltrexone and driving drunk. It's made up for goodness' sake! Otter did it because he's a cantankerous old coot. Or maybe he's insane. I'm not sure which is true. But he LOVES a good fight and to create discord. Then he disappears. (Thank all that matters.)

The post he made about gabapentin? It's been posted here at least a dozen times. However, you were wrong, Spirit, when you said that the lawsuit was about headaches or something. PLEASE READ ALL OF THE INFORMATION, SPIRIT. Hell, you don't even have to read the legal stuff, or magazine articles. You could find it all right here on MWO.

Spirit, I have not changed my opinion about medications to treat addiction. I am not, as you suggest, more open to it. I have ALWAYS BEEN A PROPONENT OF MEDICATIONS TO TREAT ALCOHOLISM.

And listen guys, as the one and only person who regularly posts here about high dose baclofen, I am really, really tired of the suggestion that I have said or done anything disparaging about people's choices regarding finding sobriety. I am the only old timer, and the only baclofentist (or whatever) here. If you have something to say, or something you would like me to clear up, then post on my thread and I'll respond.

Jesus. So ridiculous. READ THE INFORMATION people.

[guapo]

Well, I for one now know a lot more about Baclofen.

Ne, you are the voice of reason.

[terryk]

tk -You continuously baffle me with your brilliance. Did baclofen raise your level of intelligence and writing skills and lower your sense of common decency? Perhaps your OD trip to the the ER took something from you? Hang in there TK -it really does get better -if you are only willing.

Thought -sounds like you not only became indifferent to alcohol, but that you also became indifferent to people.

Common decency is knowing that CureForAlcoholics' post was as inappropriate and hurtful as it was irrelevant. Only an imbecile lacking decency would fail to see that, and unless you can articulate the merit it had for you to reply that it was a "good post" maybe it's time you changed your username to one of the handles that I've suggested.

I think that it's funny that you continually bring up/bump posts of my baclofen emergency room/hospitalization experience in an attempt to shame and discredit me, and probably to scare others away from trying baclofen. As difficult, dark, and painful as the whole ordeal was, I've never shied away from sharing it openly and honestly. Far from discouraging people, I think it's a good example of how even someone with an extreme sensitivity to baclofen, can make mistakes with it, live through and learn from those mistakes, and further persevere to find a real and lasting cure for their alcoholism - but you are just too simpleminded to see that.

As far as indifference to people goes? The damage you do to people here is the only reason I ever interact with you. I'm not indifferent to the fact that you act like some new age guru in charge here when it's painfully obvious that there's no one less qualified to do so. Nor am I indifferent to the way that you continue to bully and shame people like Lostinspace, Bkyogagurl, and StuckInCLA because their participation in the forum doesn't suit you , they're not taking the medications you deem appropriate, or you're just an asshole.

You're telling me you hang in there? Right - I've got about 3 years of perspective more than you here to know how just how much better it *really gets* and I can tell you right now that you are the one thing that's really mucking up the view.

-tk

[Spiritfree]

Plus, Terryk is a really nice person. I know he would hate that I wrote that about him, but it's true.

Jesus. So ridiculous. READ THE INFORMATION people.

Ok. Thank you. LOL -JK Ne.