SSRIs and alcoholism

[Ne/Neva Eva]

SSRIs and alcoholism

Otter;1568789 wrote: Good article. The pharmaceutical industry are finally coming around to realizing that SSRIs are useless and dangerous. Well done!StuckinLA;1568830 wrote: Not sure where you're reading "dangerous," or even "useless" in that article. My point in referencing it was that seratonin levels don't correlate with SSRI effectiveness.

Or, for that matter, that the pharmaceutical industry is coming around to anything other than the fact that they need a new drug. One that won't make people sick. Or crash their car. Or make them feel three feet thick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6uEMOeDZsA[/video]]Huey Lewis And The News - I Want A New Drug - YouTube

And yes, I'm embarrassed about posting that. I am oooold. And totally uncool.

[Tom321]

SSRIs and alcoholism

Well said

[Fred_The_Cat]

SSRIs and alcoholism

Allow me to paraphrase the final (and pretty inflammatory) chapter of "The Antidepressant Solution" by Dr. Glenmullen:

- The main source of information prescribing physicians have for antidepressants is the literature produced by the pharmaceutical companies. Clinical trials indicate no significant side effects after a mercifully short 6 week trial. The diagnostic criteria for depression are vague, and there is no such things as an exit strategy.

-Pharmaceutical lobbying firms buy medical oversight where third party credibility is needed. This paid for opinion is then reprinted as an objective viewpoint coming from outside the industry, shoring up their credibility.

- The pharmaceutical literature is quick to point out that if the medicine is discontinued, that depressive relapse will occur, hence administration of the medication needs to continue. This is patently FALSE. Real depressive relapse occurs in a matter of weeks, not days. This suggests the possibility of withdrawal and that maybe the medications are not as safe as they say they are...

- When too many horror stories of nervous breakdowns and suicides started pouring in from people stopping their medicine, a conference was called among medical professionals to address the issue. Yes, the medications posed some risk, but they spent more time debating a euphemism for withdrawal that did not have drugged out connotations. They coined the more palatable term "discontinuation syndrome".

-The UK is not amused by this. Their equivalent of the FDA orders an investigation of antidepressant withdrawal and concludes that there is a significant risk of suicide. The law changes to state that antidepressants must clearly indicate a suicide risk and never be prescribed to people under 18, whose risk is the greatest.

-Meanwhile the US pharmaceutical companies are slow to admit wrongdoing as a solidified group- until the patents run out. Then Company A can tout its next generation drug as not having company B's nasty side effects and vice versa. The wrongs have been righted, lessons have been learned. Newer, better drugs are here (tested after a whole 6 weeks) that will undo the wrongs of the past.

Just like last time.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

SSRIs and alcoholism

Tom321;1568845 wrote: Well said
Which part? It was the Huey Lewis song lyrics, wasn't it? I know. I'm cool like that.

Thanks.

Fred_The_Cat;1568865 wrote: Allow me to paraphrase the final (and pretty inflammatory) chapter of "The Antidepressant Solution" by Dr. Glenmullen:

... Newer, better drugs are here (tested after a whole 6 weeks) that will undo the wrongs of the past.

Just like last time.

I actually don't see anything inflammatory about those statements. (Just my humble opinion, of course.) I mean, some of it isn't true. New drugs have to go through a pretty long and arduous process in order to even get to human trials. And those trials are long and arduous. (I just love it when someone starts crying about how expensive it is for the poor pharmaceutical companies. Don't you? Usually a politician. Makes it totally clear who is paying the politician's salary, doesn't it? And also it is so sad that it costs so much money to make sure we're not going to drop dead in the first six weeks at least. EDIT: The part in italics is sarcasm. Which doesn't really translate in writing so I wanted to be clear about it.)

But along with a super-duper dose of very healthy (and more) skepticism, I am also so damn thankful for the pharma that makes my life better. The cholesterol medication that may keep me from having the heart attack my grandmother had at age 56. (And trust me when I tell you it takes about 30 seconds with google to realize what a scam statins are. omg. It's not even clear that they actually help. Except that they do. And if you read more than just the one side, you'll find that they are very effective at helping some people live a bit longer.) The Chantix! I just quit smoking because of it. Really! It's got a black box warning, too, I think.

And just as an aside, but one that should be mentioned, there haven't been any of those tests on baclofen. So...You never know, do you? It might come with it's own little black box warning some day. (Let's not forget that I have been on HDB for 3 years and owe my sobriety and my everything else, including a sober husband, to that generic little pill.)

just sayin'

And I think my point is, just so I don't come off as completely snarky, that it pays to pay attention. It's important to know what you're putting in your body and to listen to professionals and to others who have gone through whatever you're embarking on. Just because baclofen was a panacea in many ways for me, it is clearly not for everyone. And just because I would never ever take another SSRI, that doesn't mean I am going to call my loved one and tell him that he shouldn't be taking it even though it's worked for him. (Actually, I did do that because I can be an arrogant snot like that. Thank all that matters that he did not listen to me. Really. I'm so grateful he didn't stop taking his meds.) And some people will take a little bit of information, just as I used to, and extrapolate ALL THE THINGS from it. What a waste of good intellect.

And on that note, I'm going to apply my not-so-good intellect toward passing this damn final on Wednesday.

I agree, Fred, with one of your recent posts about other stuff and baclofen. Which is NOT to suggest I know something special, or that I know what you should be taking/doing. I just agree. Also with the sobriety thing. That rocks. Rock on.

[Tom321]

SSRIs and alcoholism

Yea, that part...umm super cool. Sure

[Ne/Neva Eva]

SSRIs and alcoholism

[Ne/Neva Eva]

SSRIs and alcoholism

Just fyi, Otter, because I know autism studies interest you:

The connection to serotonin may also explain why antidepressants like Prozac, known as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRI) can sometimes be helpful in autism, allowing patients to connect better with others rather than withdrawing and being isolated. The results also provide hope that adding oxytocin to SSRI or serotonin-based treatments might lead to more improvements in behavior.

?Our results suggest that maybe combining oxytocin with a serotonin drug might be beneficial,? says Malenka. Clinical trials testing oxytocin as a treatment for autism are ongoing; one trial, which only lasted four days, failed to find an effect, but researchers believe that longer exposure is probably necessary.

Hollander already uses a combination of Prozac or similar drugs with oxytocin in his clinical practice. ?I have seen synergistic effects and I think they go very well together,? he says, noting that they tend to work on different symptoms, ?I use SSRI?s to target higher order [compulsive and repetitive] rituals, routines and anxiety and use oxytocin to help with social communication and reward.?

What the ‘Love Hormone’ Has to Do With Autism | TIME.com

It's an article published in Sept by one of my favorite journalists about the connection between oxytocin and autism. Interesting...

[Otter]

SSRIs and alcoholism

Ne,

When I give my own opinion on SSRIs without sources, you say I am not a doctor so ignore what I say. When I produce articles which show SSRIs have the strongest association with violent behavior of any prescribed drug, that they have a strong association with suicide and are an old drug which is being replaced by second and third generation antidepressants, you pm me and email me to tell me how I am scaring people.

I know someone who recovered from cancer by watching The Three Stooges. So what, that doesn;t mean that it is a cure. That is the sort of reasoning you engage in. You know people who are alcoholics and take SSRIs and feel ok. So what. That doesn't make them a "cure", treatment or even a good idea for use in alcoholism and pretty much all of the literature on them is negative for alcohohlism.

Happy drug Prozac can bring on impulse to suicide, study says | Science | The Guardian
also: The editors at Lancet came to a similar conclusion at that time: The truth, they wrote, was that SSRI antidepressants “were both ineffective and harmful in children.”

Medications linked to violent behaviour
A review of reports to the USA Federal Food and Drug Administration by Moore et al
(2010) did not include baclofen in its list of drugs associated with violent behaviour
by the patient. After varenicline (‘Champix’ - prescribed for smoking cessation), the
next most common medication to be associated with violence (having adjusted for its
frequency of use in the population) was fluoxetine (originally marketed as Prozac).
Other medications in the same group as fluoxetine (i.e. the ‘SSRIs’) were the next
most common in the list.
Moore TJ, Glenmullen J and Furberg CD (2010) Prescription drugs associated with
reports of violence towards others . PLoS One. 5(12): e15337.


As for its use in alcoholism...well:

Serotonergic Agents
Research into the use of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) to treat patients with alcohol dependence has been under way for the past decade; however, most of this work has used small samples and inconsistent outcome measures. One clinical trial12 of 101 patients showed that fluoxetine (Prozac) at a dosage of up to 60 mg per day had no significant effect on alcohol consumption in persons who were alcohol dependent without major depression. In a study13 involving psychiatric patients with major depression and alcohol dependence, those treated with 20 to 40 mg per day of fluoxetine over 12 weeks had fewer drinks, fewer drinking days, and fewer heavy drinking days than those receiving placebo. Other SSRIs have shown similar results.14 Studies on the effect of SSRIs in patients with more severe alcohol dependence (Type B according to the classification system by Babor and colleagues15) show no clear benefit and sometimes show trends toward worse outcomes with SSRIs,16 and studies involving patients with less severe alcohol dependence (Babor Type A15) show no consistent benefit.17

Source: Medications for Treating Alcohol Dependence - American Family Physician


I practiced medical malpractice law so I had to be able to persuade courts that I knew more about medical procedures than the doctors I was suing. That meant studying medical treatments and being able to see what is the best treatment and what is negligent. In my view, baclofen is the best treatment for acoholism either on its own or in combination with other medications while SSRIs are dangerous and useless. If they have some positive effect for some people my guess is that it is entirely a result of the placebo effect or some other treatment, therapy or change of lifestyle they are going through at the same time.

[StuckinLA]

SSRIs and alcoholism

The increased risk of suicidal ideation is well known - it's in the voice-over warnings on TV ads. I don't know, I'm not trying to defend SSRIs, I guess. The over-prescription of them is problematic, but if they work for some people - and they do - then they should definitely be used.

The studies that show they are the equivalent of placebo are in MILD/MODERATE depression, and good luck defining that. Sh*t, "I feel unhappy sometimes" could be classed as "mild depression." No wonder SSRIs don't work for that. But in MAJOR depression they have been shown to be much more effective than placebo. Soooooooo, what to do then? Don't take a pill "just because"? That sounds reasonable to me. But do take a pill if you find life so intolerably bullsh*t depressing that you might off yourself? Yeah, that too sounds like a f**king plan.

[Otter]

SSRIs and alcoholism

Yes, but we are talking here about alcoholism and it is not a treatment for alcoholism, just depression. My own experience of use of SSRIs in alcoholism is that they led to suicide attempts which I had to witness so I don't buy that they are good or useful in alcoholism. I have seen the disastrous consequences of them being prescribed by psychiatrists who had no idea about alcoholism, or baclofen or even which way was up, from what I could make out.

Here is the scary stuff: The Real Lesson of Columbine: Psychiatric Drugs Induce Violence ? Citizens Commission on Human Rights of Colorado

[StuckinLA]

SSRIs and alcoholism

Oh my bad. Didn't realize this thread was all about prescribing SSRIs for alcoholism, 'cause we seemed to get sidetracked with just talk about SSRIs generally and your claims that they make every single person a raging axe murderer before killing themselves.

So, in light of this development:

SSRIs do not do anything for alcoholism at all in any way whatsoever.

Done.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

SSRIs and alcoholism

StuckinLA;1570510 wrote:

SSRIs do not do anything for alcoholism at all in any way whatsoever.

Unless one is depressed and they help. There's that.

But your point is taken. I think.

[Otter]

SSRIs and alcoholism

Ne/Neva Eva;1570565 wrote: Unless one is depressed and they help. There's that.

But your point is taken. I think.

And...if you take them for depression, you take the risk of becoming suicidal and/or having fits of uncontrollable rage leading to violence. But, I grant you, some people might feel less "depressed", whatever that means.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

SSRIs and alcoholism

Ha! Whatever, Otter. I meant that Stuck's point was taken. I know after all this time that it is moot to try to have a discussion with you Otter! You've trained me well to just ignore the stuff you post, especially when it comes to the things that you feel particularly passionate about. But there's a problem with that.

When I first got here I thought you knew everything. I didn't know how to read the research, and didn't understand a lot of what I did read. I certainly couldn't incorporate it into the big picture. After I learned, and started reading for myself I figured out that a lot of what you posted were your own "theories" often based on really far-fetched or sketchy research. Sometimes on a whim or a guess! Now don't get me wrong, I know you've been through hell and back trying to solve this alcohol conundrum, but (I'll say it AGAIN) it doesn't give you the right to suggest that other people are doing something wrong, particularly when they are listening to their doctor's advice. (And the fact that you do not trust doctors, or government, or researchers, or really anyone else, should be your signature, Otter.) The real problem, Otter, is that you're often wrong. But you're very smart, and you write with some authority, so it sounds like you're absolutely right. (And often you are partly right. Or on to something. Truthfully, between you and me, I think of you often because I come across something when reading and think, "Aha! This fits in with what Otter thinks!" Or I find something that I know you would appreciate. Usually about how much doctors suck or something. )

So. Without further ado, I will sign off. You're welcome to have the last word, because (as I mentioned) you've trained me well. I concede defeat (or whatever) on this train of thought as the discussion gets us nowhere. But you're wrong and wrongheaded about SSRIs and you should just stop because you might hurt people as a result.

Hope Greece (?) is treating you well.
K

[Otter]

SSRIs and alcoholism

I am not in Greece. I am in Cyprus. I just got back from sailing classes with my son so, yes, it is treating me well.

The ideas about serotonin depletion and SSRIs come from Joan Larson's book Seven Weeks to Sobriety. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGRI1y1_YkM&noredirect=1[/video]]SSRI's make things worse, Joan Mathews-Larson, PhD - YouTube I didn't make them up. Alcohol depletes serotonin in the long term but when a person drinks alcohol they get a temporary rise in serotonin so it is a vicious circle. Larson considers serotonin depletion to be key to understaning and treating alcoholism, hence her emphasis on taking L-Tryptophan instead of SSRIs. Her criticism of SSRIs is that they don't actually increase depleted serotonin levels but only contain what serotonin is left in the system which, in the case of a chronic alcoholic is very little. Then there is the problem that when one discontinues them, whatever serotonin there is, goes resulting in severe depression and the tendency towards suicide and depression. So, no, it isn't my theory and it isn't far fetched as you seem to suggest.

I don't come here to spread crank theories. The other theory which seems to have got up your nose is about white matter "hyperintensity". I read about this in studies of the brain using ultrasound and it showed damage in the interconnecting nerve tissue in the brains of chronic alcoholics. This isn't crank, off the wall research either. It is being conducted by Dr. Susan Mosher-Ruiz at Boston University and she had twice won awards for her research into alcoholism. She is investigating the role of damage to the "white matter" in the brain, ie., the nerves, rather than the "gray matter" of the brain. She discovered that alcoholism reversed with the repair of nerves in the brain. I pointed out that alcoholism and conditions such as MS both share symptoms of the "shakes" or trembling and that baclofen worked in both of them. Ameisen wrote of his own nervous leg syndrome for which baclofen is routinely prescribed and my wife has tremors from stroke and her first prescription was quite happily give by her GP for stroke, no questions asked, and not for alcoholism, so, again, not a crazy theory at all.

As for commenting on treatments, like SSRIs, yes, I have every right to comment on a public forum where people are looking for the best treatment on alcoholism. It is not just the case that I have been through hell with alcoholism. I researched the subject into the ground for 10 years, sought advice from the top doctors on the planet, worked with alcohol counselors and psychiatrists, represented alcoholics in court and prosecuted them in countless cases including cases involving multiple deaths. I found Dr. Chick through my research when no one here had heard of him, hunted him down and got him to prescribe baclofen for my wife. I then found a research doctor at our local hospital and managed to get two doctors locally to prescribe and to use additional medications in accordance with the French Guidelines. I ended up giving Dr. Chick research papers which he used to write medical opinions and he has congratulated me on getting NICE in the UK to change their stance on baclofen. The English version of the Prescribing Guidelines which I and my uncle translated is now accepted by the doctors in France as the authorized translation. Lo0p has made me a moderator of the new forum and I have worked my socks off for four years on my own two sites to help people find doctors to help them get treatment with baclofen. My wife is now totally sober and never drinks, after a 20 year battle with alcoholism.

In contrast, your own post says you didn't know how to research when you first came here. If I get up your nose that badly, then just put me on ignore.

And...yes...I do know everything....lol