SSRIs and alcoholism

[Otter]

SSRIs and alcoholism

StuckinLA;1570510 wrote: Oh my bad. Didn't realize this thread was all about prescribing SSRIs for alcoholism, 'cause we seemed to get sidetracked with just talk about SSRIs generally and your claims that they make every single person a raging axe murderer before killing themselves.

So, in light of this development:

SSRIs do not do anything for alcoholism at all in any way whatsoever.

Done.

Just to clarify, the title of the thread is "SSRIs and alcoholism"...I did not "claim" that SSRIs make "every single person" a "raging axe murderer before killing themselves". Doctors are supposed to alert patients to the risks and benefits of drugs and in the case of SSRIs there is emerging evidence of a risk of them causing violent behavior and suicidal thoughts. There is also evidence that they do not help with alcoholism and can make it worse.

But since we are on the topic of SSRIs and axe murders...MASS VIOLENCE LINKED TO PRESCRIPTION PSYCHIATRIC MEDICATIONS - A RESOURCE PAGE | WHAT REALLY HAPPENED


So, I would hope that people reading my posts would realize, being intelligent and sophisticated sorts, that I am not a doctor since no doctor would post medical advice here, and that if they don't like what I say, they can ignore my opinions, seek advice from their own doctors and generally do whatever they like without worrying that I am going to visit them and do something to them because they happen to disagree with me.

I agree generally with your conclusion but would point out that I am not a doctor nor do I have any magical powers to "make" people do what I think they should do, nor do I have any desire to control what any one else does outside my own house, and most of the time I have little or no control here either.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

SSRIs and alcoholism

Joan Larson, the PhD doctor, is far from being an impartial or unbiased researcher into the diagnosis or treatment of alcoholism. She has a lot of money to gain encouraging people not to take medications and to steer them toward a nutritional approach. One is welcome to spend exorbitant amounts of money to get treatment from her facility. Or one could do it oneself all naturally and therefore without medications. Shocker that she doesn't support the use of antidepressants. Probably pretty fair to say she wouldn't support the use of baclofen, either. (Add to it that her research is oooold. just sayin') How did the medicine free, nutritional approach only work for your wife?

Chick published a paper saying that he believes that baclofen is a substitute much in the way that benzos are a substitute. I know that you know this is inaccurate. I know it's inaccurate. He only prescribes up to 100mg, because (according to people who have seen him and then posted here, including you) he doesn't believe that high dose baclofen is safe or effective.

Both people have contributed a great deal to my understanding of the fact that this disease is complicated and incorporates a large body of work and a real effort to get a comprehensive, global picture. This is particularly important because it is so complicated, but also because there are a lot of people with vested interests in perpetuating information that is only partly true or accurate. Much like Chick and Larson.

Myelination is a fascinating aspect, and one of the ones that I have read more about. As is the one about the new drug that is focusing on stomach enzymes. (Did you catch that on here?) Very interesting stuff. But such a small part of the big picture that it's relatively moot unless one is taking each with the understanding that we really have No Idea what the big picture looks like, yet. But to your real point, I'm fairly certain anything you'd write would get my goat and send me to the virtual library at this point. Particularly when you link something full of nonsense. Or an abstract. You would be amazed at the difference between an abstract and the full article, Otter.

Which shouldn't take anything away from the fact that you were instrumental in getting the NICE (? National Institutes of something?) to acknowledge baclofen as a treatment.

Or any of your other life's accomplishments. Congratulations on all of them. Including the sailing. That's important.

Perhaps what I need to remind myself is that this is not dissimilar to the conversation I had with Lance Dodes (via email) and the heated discussions I have instigated or participated in on many 12-step forums. Really a ridiculous waste of everyone's time because opinions are rather common. You would think that after 2+ years of this same volley, Otter, I would learn that no amount of reason, rational argument or scientific evidence will change your mind concerning the things you have fixated on.

Peace.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

SSRIs and alcoholism

Otter;1570736 wrote:
But since we are on the topic of SSRIs and axe murders...MASS VIOLENCE LINKED TO PRESCRIPTION PSYCHIATRIC MEDICATIONS - A RESOURCE PAGE | WHAT REALLY HAPPENED

This site is bull shit. Totally paid for by people with an agenda. Aren't you embarrassed posting crap like that? Seriously.

EDIT: I just spent a few more minutes looking around WhatReallyHappened.com. It's like the National Enquirer meets FoxNews meets my crazy great aunt who has Alzheimer's. That's not news, much less scientific news.

[Colin]

SSRIs and alcoholism

One of Otter's little jokes. Don't take yourself so seriously Ne.

[Otter]

SSRIs and alcoholism

Oh dear me...

Ne, get a sense of humour...please.

Both Drs you have trashed have Ph.D degrees and Chick has a doctor of Science honour which is for lifetime achievement. He has a huge pension and is semi retired. His reputation for imparitiality is such that he has been made editor of an Oxford journal. You do know how to hit your head against brick walls.

[Fred_The_Cat]

SSRIs and alcoholism

I DEFINITELY think that medications could be behind these mass shootings.

Every one of these cases involves mental illness and the shooter not cooperating with treatment in the period leading up to the shooting.

Read between the lines here. Medications are FAR overprescribed for what ails you, and for someone who is truly psychotic and not being monitored it can be the final straw in sending them over the edge.

I consider myself lucky to have crashed on antidepressants and antipsychotics under CLOSE supervision. I went to Virginia Tech, and saw the same counseling staff that saw the shooter. They knew what to look out for and what questions to ask, so they were able to advise me to get back on my meds before I did something stupid. Now whenever that happens I know that it's the meds rather than me being persecuted like Joan of Arc.

And I find it really surprising that the mainstream media is not covering this issue. For God's sake, video games and Marylin Manson got more coverage out of these incidents than medications did. What gives here?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

SSRIs and alcoholism

Forgive that I'm totally derailing your thread, Fred.

Otter. I don't have time for this. I'm not sure what it is that I'm supposed to have a sense of humor about? Is it the article on that ridiculous website you posted? The one starring Joan Larson as the pinnacle of sanity while she perpetuates the myth that one can solve alcoholism with nutrition. (You didn't answer the question as to how that worked for your wife. So...How did the nutritional approach work for your wife, Otter?) I'm fairly certain that one would find a whole lot of tinfoil-hat-wearing, the-prime-minister-is-a-reptile-alien-believing types on that website. What exactly was your point with that???

I didn't trash anyone. But I'm about to.

Fred, given the vast number of people who take antidepressants, and the fact that there is not that as a commonality for mass murder, wouldn't it be safe to assume that it is not in fact antidepressant medication?
And given the fact that (by definition) one has to be severely mentally ill in order to commit mass murder it is a safe bet that the murderers have been treated, often with antidepressants? But that this is in NO WAY indicative that there is any connection except that they are all (to be completely concise) fucking crazy?

I've known about Otter for a long time and to suggest that he is paranoid is an understatement. Don't buy into the drama. Please.

Oh, and btw, I did read that a couple of the most recent mass murderers had something else in common: meditation.

I guess it's safe to say that meditation can be dangerous for the psychotically homicidal. Right?

[Fred_The_Cat]

SSRIs and alcoholism

Tell you what Ne.

It's a policy that I do not argue about a subject on which I have not read a book. In this case I have.

Read "The Antidepressant Solution" by Dr. Joseph Glenmullen (a Harvard Psychiatrist, and by no means a naturalistic quack). He prescribes them all the time, but unlike other doctors, has an exit strategy in place before he does so.

In turn, I will read whatever source of information you're basing your arguments off of. And then we can talk.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

SSRIs and alcoholism

Ok.

Peace out.

[Alky]

SSRIs and alcoholism

Can anyone explain the difference between a SSRI and a SARI? My psychiatrist prescribes me trazodone off-label for sleep issues, and when I take it regularly I actually do feel better, although I'm groggy about the first hour I'm up. They sound like similar drugs.

[Otter]

SSRIs and alcoholism

Ne/Neva Eva;1571231 wrote: Forgive that I'm totally derailing your thread, Fred.

Otter. I don't have time for this. I'm not sure what it is that I'm supposed to have a sense of humor about? Is it the article on that ridiculous website you posted? The one starring Joan Larson as the pinnacle of sanity while she perpetuates the myth that one can solve alcoholism with nutrition. (You didn't answer the question as to how that worked for your wife. So...How did the nutritional approach work for your wife, Otter?) I'm fairly certain that one would find a whole lot of tinfoil-hat-wearing, the-prime-minister-is-a-reptile-alien-believing types on that website. What exactly was your point with that???

I didn't trash anyone. But I'm about to.

Fred, given the vast number of people who take antidepressants, and the fact that there is not that as a commonality for mass murder, wouldn't it be safe to assume that it is not in fact antidepressant medication?
And given the fact that (by definition) one has to be severely mentally ill in order to commit mass murder it is a safe bet that the murderers have been treated, often with antidepressants? But that this is in NO WAY indicative that there is any connection except that they are all (to be completely concise) fucking crazy?

I've known about Otter for a long time and to suggest that he is paranoid is an understatement. Don't buy into the drama. Please.

Oh, and btw, I did read that a couple of the most recent mass murderers had something else in common: meditation.

I guess it's safe to say that meditation can be dangerous for the psychotically homicidal. Right?

Ne, now you descend into insults. My wife, BTW, swears by the nutritional approach. She still uses the vitamins and supplements and the minerals like Lithium orotate as recommended by Joan Larson. The problem is that the approach tackles anxiety at a very late stage in the process through the use of GABA and the protocol is very expensive and complex.

I don't see why the need for the insults. I am not paranoid, but I do have people calling me names, like you.

An SARI works by "antagonizing" serotonin sites. Behond that, however, it is a mystery to me. The nutritional approach which Ne thinks is a myth simply says that in order to supplement serotonin, you take more serotonin which involves taking L-tryptophan which converts into serotonin and eating foods which contain it, like turkey and milk. The point Larson makes is that L-Tryptophan was banned by the US gov. some years ago after an accident involving an adulterated batch of L-tryptophan and also because it is not patentable so the big pharmas can't make money out of it, like they do by making drugs which are synthetic. It is also, I think, part of the general moral position in mainstream America against substances which "make you happy" such as L-Tryptophan.

But, take SSRI's if you want. My research and personal experience has shown me that they result in violent and suicidal behavior. I suppose my experience trying to fish someone out of the sea or coaxing them down off a cliff is nothing to some around here, or my arguments with GPs and psychiatrists about continuing to prescribe the drug. But, hey, go on, ignore the science and me...

And, by the way, Ne, if you don't have time for this, don't engage in it. Feel free not to comment on any of my comments. I think most people here are old enough and intelligent enough that they can see what I am saying and accept/reject it without your insults and unscientific, gut reaction analysis.

[joanna_d]

SSRIs and alcoholism

Ne/Neva Eva;1570747 wrote: This site is bull shit. Totally paid for by people with an agenda. Aren't you embarrassed posting crap like that? Seriously.

but seriously, there are ssri's that can cause things like (in some cases extremely) violent behaviour, manic episodes, or (yep) frantic drinking. my alcoholism really kicked off under the influence of an ssri called seroxat (paxil in us i think). i think i read a post by Xadrian once, where he wrote he had bad experiences with that stuff too (i believe also related to his alcoholism).
when coming off it (way way way to late because of wood headed doctor i had then), which was a thorough bitch, i investigated into it, read lots on forums like this one. that medicine is plain evil for a lot of people (or was. most doctors switched to prescribing finer tuned ssri's nowadays).

EDIT: one more note: years after they started prescribing seroxat/paxil, and only after glaxxo smith kline had done everything they could to discard the proof, a warning was issued (in Holland at least) for doctors not to prescribe this medicine to people under the age of 18, 'cause it had been proven to increase chances of suicide in that age group.
lots of doctors kept on prescribing to under 18 anyway, not seeing the need (or finding the time) to second guess their prescribing habits.

EDIT: please stop editting Jo!

[StuckinLA]

SSRIs and alcoholism

EDIT: A good friend of mine just went on Paxil, and she seems to really like it. Minimal SEs, and it is improving her mood. She's been sober for I think 8 or 9 years now - not in recovery or anything, she just stopped drinking for whatever reason - and suffers from debilitating post-partum depression with both of her children. So perhaps it is safe to say that individual SSRIs will affect individuals differently?

All I want to point out is that just because doctors and BigPharma don't generally know WTF they're doing, and over-prescribe, DOES NOT mean that these drugs are not helpful for some people. Sure, they can also be harmful - but hey, same with most other things. For example, alcohol works GREAT for MOST people, right?

[Alky]

SSRIs and alcoholism

My psychiatrist had me on trazodone for several years, which is a SARI antidepressant. I don't know how similar it is to a SSRI, but I imagine they must be similar because they both prevent the reuptake of serotonin. I always felt better and found it easier to stay alcohol free when I took it regularly. A few days ago, I was searching academic databases for articles regarding baclofen as a treatment for alcoholism when I stumbled across an article on how trazodone chemically encourages alcoholic relapses. This piqued my curiosity because it certainly wasn't my experience on trazodone, so I did more searching and basically found an equal number of articles that argue that trazodone encourages relapses and trazodone makes it easier to stay abstinent. What I take from this is that the population is so diverse that it's impossible to say definitively one way or another. A particular study's results clearly is not monolithic.

[joanna_d]

SSRIs and alcoholism

EDIT: sure Stuck. that paxil is evil for a lot of people, doesn't mean it's not helpful for a lot of other people!! (oh, i see you already wrote something alike in your own post)

:hitme:

still i think there are newer and finer tuned ssri's in the market nowadays, that are helpful to a lot of people without being that bad for others.