SSRIs and alcoholism

[Ne/Neva Eva]

SSRIs and alcoholism

StuckinLA;1578230 wrote: ...
All I want to point out is that just because doctors and BigPharma don't generally know WTF they're doing, and over-prescribe, DOES NOT mean that these drugs are not helpful for some people. Sure, they can also be harmful - but hey, same with most other things. For example, alcohol works GREAT for MOST people, right?


Exactly. I've just started a rotation in psych. I have personally witnessed the change in people who go from madness to sanity because of psych drugs, including SSRIs. These drugs can suck. Treatment of mental illness sucks. I have no doubt that we will look back even ten years from now and think that many of these treatments are completely archaic. But do they work more often than not treating someone? Hell yes. Much better than every other option.

(And if y'all want to get mad/paranoid/upset/conspiratorial about something, take a look at what medical schools are teaching future doctors and nurses about addiction. The drugs, the hospitals, even big pharma pale in comparison to the bull shit that is perpetuated in actual training of medical professionals in the best schools in the country.)

joanna_d;1577634 wrote: but seriously, ...

i investigated into it, read lots on forums like this one. ...

Did you click on and actually read the link, Jo? It's unadulterated bull shit. Seriously. And while your point is taken, I would like to clarify further what I've written here. People read lots of stuff on forums like these. Responding to Otter and others like him is moot, simply because he (and people like him) will always believe that everything is out to get him and we should SUE! SUE! SUE! This is almost all based on misinformation. Anyone who thinks that those responses are rational after actually reading what is posted in the links provided is not going to be swayed by ration or reason no matter how many times someone responds. BUT (BUT! BUT!) These drugs save people's lives. They have side effects and can be dangerous (lithium is a good example) but some people CANNOT LIVE WITHOUT THEM. (Sorry for shouting.) It is so important that the world supports people with mental illness (and of course, addiction) because the system, (the insurance companies, pharma companies, doctors and hospitals) SUCK. So if someone comes on here and is taking an SSRI (which I would never take) and is finding help, who are we to say that they are bad? Seriously.

Also, it's extremely naive to assume that baclofen is a "safe" drug that can be taken with impunity by anyone and everyone. The tests and research that determine the safety and efficacy of drugs have never been done on baclofen. That said, I took gobs and loads of it and I'm fine. And I know a lot of people who have done just that. And it saved our lives! But I also know of 4 people from the MWO meds threads who have committed suicide in the last 3 years. just sayin' (And seriously.)

EDIT: Aren't we on the same page about this? I never responded to the other posts because, as I mentioned, it's moot. Also because I didn't think it was fair to Fred the Cat to derail the whole thing when he's just looking for input. He's obviously struggling. I hope you're okay, Fred. And sorry for my part in the digression.)

Cheers, peeps. I hope everyone keeps up the fight to find the way to a better place.

[joanna_d]

SSRIs and alcoholism

Ne/Neva Eva;1579432 wrote:
Did you click on and actually read the link, Jo? It's unadulterated bull shit.

no, i didn't. and in hindsight i shouldn't have quoted you in my post, 'cause my reaction had nothing to do with that website.

i wrote that just after an intense drawing session, and i'm afraid the almost manic (AF) way in which i'm throwing myself onto my work at the moment makes me somewhat explosive and adrenaline struck. which for the creative process works great, but for social interactions just plain clumsy.
i'll try to get a serious cool down before writing a post from now on.

so, i guess i'm in for some serious flagellation.

[joanna_d]

SSRIs and alcoholism

Ne/Neva Eva;1579432 wrote:
EDIT: Aren't we on the same page about this? I never responded to the other posts because, as I mentioned, it's moot. Also because I didn't think it was fair to Fred the Cat to derail the whole thing when he's just looking for input. He's obviously struggling.

???? i'm a bit startled i must say. did i write anything to derail him? i sure didn't mean to...
okay, well, i'll keep a lid on it from now on. it's not nearly my purpose to derail or upset anyone with what i write

[StuckinLA]

SSRIs and alcoholism

joanna_d;1578320 wrote: still i think there are newer and finer tuned ssri's in the market nowadays, that are helpful to a lot of people without being that bad for others.

Really quick: yes, that's true, Jo. I do want to jump in with what I know about David Foster Wallace and Nardil. He was on Nardil for 20 years and it managed his depression at least well enough that he didn't kill himself. He did try to come off of it, and when that didn't work and he had to go back on meds, his doc kind of pushed him toward newer drugs - because Nardil doesn't isolate specific receptors or whatever, and isn't as "fine tuned" as many newer drugs. But it all turned into a shitshow and he committed suicide.

My point - yes, I have one - is that it's my belief that we know so little about how/why these drugs do or don't work, that the language of "fine tuned" or, as Nardil is called in the lingo, a "dirty drug" because it's just kind of scattershot around the brain, well that language isn't helpful. Because if it happens to be the *right* scattershot around the *right* brain, it works great.

What's unfortunate is that someone taking Paxil, say, may hate it and be turned off to SSRIs, someone else might be perfect for Paxil, but never get it because the newest is considered the "best," and ultimately it takes months if not years if someone wanted to try the different drugs out there, looking for a good fit.

Sorry to hijack, Fred.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

SSRIs and alcoholism

joanna_d;1579716 wrote: no, i didn't. and in hindsight i shouldn't have quoted you in my post, 'cause my reaction had nothing to do with that website.
...
so, i guess i'm in for some serious flagellation.
I was confused about that. Glad it wasn't about the website.
...
Not from me.
joanna_d;1579728 wrote: ???? i'm a bit startled i must say. did i write anything to derail him? i sure didn't mean to...
okay, well, i'll keep a lid on it from now on. it's not nearly my purpose to derail or upset anyone with what i write

No, you didn't! I did when I responded to Otter's post. I really should know better after all this time. My bad.
Don't stop with your input and sorry that my grumpiness overflowed the cup it was meant to fill...That one doesn't benefit from my cup, either. Which doesn't make any sense at all, but I'll leave it.

Glad you're getting into drawing. Post it somewhere, sometime? As always, xo

[Ne/Neva Eva]

SSRIs and alcoholism

StuckinLA;1579736 wrote: Really quick: yes, that's true, Jo. I do want to jump in with what I know about David Foster Wallace and Nardil. He was on Nardil for 20 years and it managed his depression at least well enough that he didn't kill himself. He did try to come off of it, and when that didn't work and he had to go back on meds, his doc kind of pushed him toward newer drugs - because Nardil doesn't isolate specific receptors or whatever, and isn't as "fine tuned" as many newer drugs. But it all turned into a shitshow and he committed suicide.

My point - yes, I have one - is that it's my belief that we know so little about how/why these drugs do or don't work, that the language of "fine tuned" or, as Nardil is called in the lingo, a "dirty drug" because it's just kind of scattershot around the brain, well that language isn't helpful. Because if it happens to be the *right* scattershot around the *right* brain, it works great.

That's really interesting and insightful, Stuck. Thanks.

[Otter]

SSRIs and alcoholism

That may have been an interesting way of dealing with neurological disorder up to about 1990 but with the advent of thermal imaging of the brain, it is possible to see exactly what parts of the brain these drugs work on, so that doctors don't have to use dirty drugs in scattergun, "suck it and see" form of experimentation.

[Otter]

SSRIs and alcoholism

Ne/Neva Eva;1579432 wrote: Exactly. I've just started a rotation in psych. I have personally witnessed the change in people who go from madness to sanity because of psych drugs, including SSRIs. These drugs can suck. Treatment of mental illness sucks. I have no doubt that we will look back even ten years from now and think that many of these treatments are completely archaic. But do they work more often than not treating someone? Hell yes. Much better than every other option.

(And if y'all want to get mad/paranoid/upset/conspiratorial about something, take a look at what medical schools are teaching future doctors and nurses about addiction. The drugs, the hospitals, even big pharma pale in comparison to the bull shit that is perpetuated in actual training of medical professionals in the best schools in the country.)



Did you click on and actually read the link, Jo? It's unadulterated bull shit. Seriously. And while your point is taken, I would like to clarify further what I've written here. People read lots of stuff on forums like these. Responding to Otter and others like him is moot, simply because he (and people like him) will always believe that everything is out to get him and we should SUE! SUE! SUE! This is almost all based on misinformation. Anyone who thinks that those responses are rational after actually reading what is posted in the links provided is not going to be swayed by ration or reason no matter how many times someone responds. BUT (BUT! BUT!) These drugs save people's lives. They have side effects and can be dangerous (lithium is a good example) but some people CANNOT LIVE WITHOUT THEM. (Sorry for shouting.) It is so important that the world supports people with mental illness (and of course, addiction) because the system, (the insurance companies, pharma companies, doctors and hospitals) SUCK. So if someone comes on here and is taking an SSRI (which I would never take) and is finding help, who are we to say that they are bad? Seriously.

Also, it's extremely naive to assume that baclofen is a "safe" drug that can be taken with impunity by anyone and everyone. The tests and research that determine the safety and efficacy of drugs have never been done on baclofen. That said, I took gobs and loads of it and I'm fine. And I know a lot of people who have done just that. And it saved our lives! But I also know of 4 people from the MWO meds threads who have committed suicide in the last 3 years. just sayin' (And seriously.)

EDIT: Aren't we on the same page about this? I never responded to the other posts because, as I mentioned, it's moot. Also because I didn't think it was fair to Fred the Cat to derail the whole thing when he's just looking for input. He's obviously struggling. I hope you're okay, Fred. And sorry for my part in the digression.)

Cheers, peeps. I hope everyone keeps up the fight to find the way to a better place.

Well Ne, that ranks up there with one of the most insulting and idiotic posts I have ever read here.

First you say I am paranoid, which I am not. Then you say I think people are out to get me... as though I am dellusional, and then you yourself attack me. Then you say the information in the link I provide is pure "bull shit".

You really do astound me sometimes with your insensitivity. What possesses you to engage in personal and nasty attacks on me? Or is this paranoia???

What I post here about SSRIs is confirmed by the FDA statistics on SSRIs and their association with suicidal thoughts.

Here is the FDA warning from a NIMH site: NIMH ? Antidepressant Medications for Children and Adolescents: Information for Parents and Caregivers "Recently, there has been some concern that the use of antidepressant medications themselves may induce suicidal behavior in youths. Following a thorough and comprehensive review of all the available published and unpublished controlled clinical trials of antidepressants in children and adolescents, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) issued a public warning in October 2004 about an increased risk of suicidal thoughts or behavior (suicidality) in children and adolescents treated with SSRI antidepressant medications. In 2006, an advisory committee to the FDA recommended that the agency extend the warning to include young adults up to age 25."

Does relaying those concerns to people on this site so that they can make up their own minds make me a candidate for abuse from you? How does posting about an FDA warnign about SSRIs mean that I am calling another poster here "bad"? That is ridiculous.

Then you make light of what I, my wife and young son have been through with this illness and treatment. You know my wife suffers from brain damage from stroke and her battle is made even more difficult because of that and because of the concerns people have over my ability as a parent to cope with a disabled wife who had an extremely serious alcohol problem. So don't start putting me down saying I think people are out to get me as though I am paranoid. I have been dragged through courts and hearings over this for ten years by people who are usually completely antagonistic to baclofen treatment and have nothing to offer. You seem to think I am making it up and it is something you can use to make yourself seem more important here.

As for Dr. Larson, she also had a son who died from addiction through suicide, so she set up a specialty practice in psychology because of it and has helped many people. Her book is invaluable because it thoroughly explains the health effects of alcoholism and shows how to get one's health back. For many, that has proven to be all they needed to beat alcoholism. You are quite happy that AA, for instance, is ok so if talking is ok, what is wrong with getting one's health back and how is that "bull shit". So her video was on some guys site who has some strong ideas about SSRIs. Well, maybe he is right and maybe he is reactionary but most people here don't need you to tell them it is a private site expressing someone's views.

I know you, for some reason, dislike me and feel some urge to comment on everything I post here but please stop, I have had enough of it. Everyone comes here for support and to see what is going on in alcohol treatment and I don't appreciate your nasty and unjustified comments.

[Cassander]

SSRIs and alcoholism

I think I kinda come out where I believe Stuck (and others) are. SSRIs seem to alleviate depression and anxiety for a lot of people, including (some) alcoholics. They also don't work for many people, alcoholics and otherwise. There is a lot of variation in effectiveness among the various SSRIs which are on the market. Since scientists and doctors don't really know how an SSRI works in the brain, and why it causes relief (when it does), none of this is surprising. That they can be dangerous for some is not surprising either.

So...big surprise...I come back to exercise. The evidence is growing that exercise alleviates depression and anxiety. I posted over two years ago about Dr John Ratey's findings in his book, Spark. Here is a link to the book on Amazon: Spark: The Revolutionary New Science of Exercise and the Brain: John J. Ratey, Eric Hagerman: 9780316113519: Amazon.com: Books.

Just today Outside Magazine published yet another article supporting Ratey's conclusions. Here's a link: Exercise May be the Best Prescription for Depression. | Mental Conditioning | OutsideOnline.com.

Look, hardly anybody (who's depressed) wants to exercise. And since we are humans we are resourceful and we can think of a thousand reasons not to do it. Alcoholics excel in resourcefulness. But if you want to lick depression, anxiety and alcoholism...and you are really serious about it...read Spark and try exercise.

With your baclofen.

Cassander

[Ne/Neva Eva]

SSRIs and alcoholism

Ha! I was being gentle. Because I like you. Even though you are dead wrong with 90% of what you post as factual.

[Colin]

SSRIs and alcoholism

The Outside article ticks all my boxes. During the past 18 months I have augmented citalopram, an SSRI, for my clinical depression with baclofen for the booze and exercise just because it made me feel a lot better.

Nice to see I'm not alone.

Good information Cassander.

[skullbabyland]

SSRIs and alcoholism

I thought I'd jump in here FWIW and say that, after trying a handful of ADs over the years that didn't work well or made me feel worse (Wellbutrin, Zoloft), I found one that works very very well for me for both anxiety and depression (Effexor). Everyone's different, but it made a huge difference for me. When my sister was having a very very alarmingly difficult time, I thought that it might help her too (as we have similar family genes, thought it might be likely that shed respond well to it just like I did, and luckily I was correct). Though we both still have occasional challenges, her and I are both happy and healthy today. I'd go so far as to say that it saved our lives. I always half-jokingly say that I'd do an Effexor commercial testimonal for free, if asked.

ADs are not for everyone. Now that I'm successfully sober, I may look at dosing down/off my AD soon, since I feel that my alcohol abuse was the biggest source of my depression and anxiety, and now that's gone. But the last 3 or so years that I've been on Effexor have literally changed and maybe saved my life.

[neophyte]

SSRIs and alcoholism

I decided a week ago to go from 50mg of zoloft to 100mg and lo and behold the cravings have returned despite going up in baclofen. im actually craving booze right now and it has grown in intensity over the past few days. I'm going to go down to 50mg again and see how i go.

[neophyte]

SSRIs and alcoholism

I did a lot of searching today, anecdotal reports of the link between SSRIs, SNRIs and alcohol cravings is everywhere. This guys story is just one example

Antidepressants and alcohol cravings | RxISK

i think im going to taper off zoloft completely and if anxiety persists ill look asking my doctor to go on on mirtazapine. To think all this time that all this could have been exacerbated because of zoloft.

[istym4me]

SSRIs and alcoholism

I want to go sailing off Cyprus.