Why the resistance against meds in some quarters?

[Xadrian]

Why the resistance against meds in some quarters?

For some silly people the earth is still flat and if you tell them they're wrong, they want to burn you at the stake.

[Lo0p]

Why the resistance against meds in some quarters?

spiritwolf333;1578439 wrote: “There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation”
-Spencer

I think when I used that quote they either had this smiley or I imported it from this site:

:lalala:

There was another quote by Bill Wilson that I threw at them. Lemme see if I can find it.

[Lo0p]

Why the resistance against meds in some quarters?

I thought it was a beautiful speech.

From:

Alcoholics Anonymous ?
beginnings and growth
By Bill W.
Presented to the
New York City Medical Society on Alcoholism
April 28, 1958

In 1949, for example, the American Psychiatric
Association allowed me to read a paper on A.A.
before a section of its Annual Meeting (see page
39). As these doctors specialize in emotional disorders
? and alcoholism is certainly one of them
? this act of theirs has always seemed to me a
wonderful example of fine humility and generosity.
The reprints of even that one paper have had a
vast effect, worldwide. I?m sure that we A.A.?s
have never been sufficiently appreciative of all of
this. It used to be the fashion among some of us
in A.A. to decry psychiatry, even medical aid of
any description, save that barely needed for sobering
up. We pointed to the failures of psychiatry
and of religion. We were apt to thump our chests
and exclaim, ?Look at us. We can do it, but they
can?t!? It is therefore with great relief that I can
report this to be a vanishing attitude. Thoughtful
A.A. members everywhere realize that psychia-trists and physicians helped to bring our Society
into being in the first place and have held up our
hands ever since.
We also realize that the discoveries of the psychiatrist
and the biochemist have vast implications
for us alcoholics. Indeed, these discoveries
are today far more than implications. Your president
and other pioneers in and outside your society
have been achieving notable results for a
long time, many of their patients having made
good recoveries without any A.A. at all. It should
here be noted that some of the recovery methods
employed outside A.A. are quite in contradiction
to A.A. principles and practice. Never -
theless, we of A.A. ought to applaud the fact that
certain of these efforts are meeting with increasing
success.
We know, too, that psychiatry can often release
the big neurotic overhang from which many of us
suffer after A.A. has sobered us. We know that
psychiatrists have sent us innumerable alcoholics
who would have never otherwise approached
A.A., and many clinics have done likewise. We
clearly see that by pooling our resources we can
do together what could never be accomplished in
separation, or in shortsighted criticism and
in competition.
Therefore I would like to make a pledge
to the whole medical fraternity that A.A. will
always stand ready to cooperate, that A.A. will
never trespass upon medicine, that our members
who feel the call will increasingly help in those
great enterprises of education, rehabilitation and
research which are now going forward with
such promise.
So menacing is the growing specter of alcoholism
that nothing short of the total resources of
society can hope to vanquish or much lessen the
strength of our very dangerous adversary, John
Barleycorn. The subtlety and power of the alcoholic?s
malady is revealed on every page of mankind?s
history ? and never so starkly and so destructively
as in this century.
When our combined understanding and knowledge
have been fully massed and applied, we of
A.A. know that we shall find our friends of medicine
in the very front rank ? just where so many
of you are already standing today.
22
When such an array of benign and cooperative
action is in full readiness, it can, and will, surely
be a great tomorrow for that vast host of men
who suffer from alcoholism and from all its dark
and baleful consequences.

They didn't think so.

"Therefore I would like to make a pledge" -Emphasis either his or A.A. Grapevine, Inc

[bleep]

Why the resistance against meds in some quarters?

Thanks for that Lo0p. Bill had the right idea. Anything that works.

One reason that hasn't yet been mentioned for resistance is this:

The rehab industry is a multi-billion dollar a year industry. I don't have the figures to hand, and can't be bothered to look them up, but I guarantee that a major portion of that income is based on repeat business, and not first-timers. People who are cured medicinally in my mind are less likely to relapse. There are obviously no figures available for this yet.

Their whole business model is under severe threat.

[Juan BH]

Why the resistance against meds in some quarters?

Nice pull Lo0p. I think it deserves a place in the "What inspires you?" section of B for A.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Why the resistance against meds in some quarters?

It is so nice to read this discussion. Thanks for it. Bleep, I don't think there are any hard figures as to who makes what from treatment. The numbers are shrouded in secrecy akin to the Illuminati. Would that they had the same goal...(Illuminati - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

I would add that one of the issues that confronts addiction treatment and medicine is that there is a whole range of us out there. The definition has become so convoluted (especially with DSM V) that it includes behavior that for many is a rite of passage. So...A person who drinks too much on a regular basis, or binges irregularly when in college, has the same (self-) diagnosis as the person who lives and breathes for booze/a drug the way I did. It makes sense (in a convoluted way) that some people can "just quit" or can start eating well/exercising and/or praying in order to stop drinking/using. (Forgive all the ///)

I couldn't. Not for lack of trying. The only thing that ever worked was baclofen, and that only because I could keep drinking while it worked. Because every decision I've made for more than a decade had to do with drinking...No act of God was going to stop that madness in my brain chemistry. Again, not for lack of trying. I've actually been "saved" by one of those big churches that is on television. During a televised broadcast. (And others, too. Jesus apparently has my soul, despite the fact that I don't believe.) My dad owned health clubs when I was growing up, and we all exercised regularly. He's still an alcoholic, too. And my mother didn't allow junk food or a television in the house until I was in my early teens. I've also had the experience of being "treated" to the reformed-drinker's dogma so many times I have literally lost count.

My point? Some of us need medication. Some don't. Medicine has been deluded by AA, their own bias AND because there is a continuum of illness. Oh yipes. I forgot the most important factor. $$$ and more $$$$$$. It's not just the treatment industry or big pharma, either. Let's not forget the nutritional supplement industry and snake-oil-peddlers who make serious bank. Supplements is a HUGE industry. With no oversight, and little or no proof that it works, (because it doesn't) those people are at the top of the list for fleecing the likes of our community.

[Cassander]

Why the resistance against meds in some quarters?

A couple of thoughts about the Bill W excerpt that Lo0p has posted (thanks Lo0p!) and the follow up comments...

After reading this, it seems clear to me that Bill W did, in fact, get it. Especially given the lack of viable alternatives during the time AA was getting off the ground (1930s, 1940s).

I agree with him that AA can help the alcoholic quit drinking and that mental health professionals can help alcoholics with the "big neurotic overhang from which many of us
suffer".

It does seem that many in AA, including influential people in AA have forgotten what Bill W said. This is too bad.

To me, it is clear that medical treatment for alcoholism can coexist with AA. It is a shame so many in AA disagree. I think part of the problem is that it is easy to confuse street drugs and narcotics (which, of course, don't work) with bona fide medical treatment...like baclofen. This is a problem of knowledge and education and it is a big shame and tragedy that so many people are uninformed.

With respect to the rehab industry I see numerous problems.

For one, the industry is largely (entirely?) unsupervised and unregulated...are there any universally agreed or applicable rules or procedures? Is there any oversight or accountability? In any walk of life, in any business, whenever there are no rules, no supervision and no accountability you can bet you are going to find big problems if you scratch beneath the surface.

Two, it is a big money industry...with millions of alcoholics in the US alone, and average treatment costs at major rehab centers running up to $30,000 a month or more, where is the incentive to adapt to potentially lower cost medical treatment?

And, three, so many people in the rehab community are addicts and alcoholics themselves who are neither trained nor knowledgeable in medical treatment and who consciously or subconsciously accept the modern day AA anti-medication bias.

And yes, as bleep says, real and effective cures would undermine the "annuity" aspect of their business.

The irony is, as spiritwolf has written, that a "30 day", residential, medically supervised program which employs all of (i) bona fide psychiatry, (ii) bona fide medical treatment for withdrawal and relief from craving (ie, baclofen and other medications), and (iii) bona fide mutual support (without the quasi-religious AA overlay) might well truly succeed. The current business model is doomed.

Cass

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Why the resistance against meds in some quarters?

Cassander;1579583 wrote:

For one, the industry is largely (entirely?) unsupervised and unregulated...are there any universally agreed or applicable rules or procedures?
No.

Cassander;1579583 wrote: Is there any oversight or accountability?

No.

It's shocking. The extent of the problem, but also the fact that the people who are part of the problem see the problem. They just don't think they are part of it. We are learning this in the nursing program. Literally, that the problem is that people who treat addicts are poorly trained and that people who do not treat addicts don't understand it at all, but are the primary care resource for this (and all mental health) treatment. They are chronically 'underfunded' despite being extremely well-subsidized.

In Oregon (and somewhere else? California, maybe?) it has been mandated that treatment facilities use evidence-based practices. It's a good idea, right? But there aren't any...Except for the meds that we know don't work very well, and the programs we know don't work at all. So in order to prove it's "evidence-based" all the treatment centers have to do is actually follow up on the patients for between 6 and 12 months. That's it. (And guess what the result might be if it is found that the treatments don't work? The facilities will lose their funding. Which will leave only charity, and for-profit...Ugh. So dreadfully depressing.) (That also means that using medications off-label won't be possible. It guarantees that anything not "evidence-based" will be omitted. That would include all of the things that we know work to help, too. Exercise, nutrition, etc...)

[Lo0p]

Why the resistance against meds in some quarters?

Wow. When I posted it there they just deleted it or closed the topic, along with every single other topic I started.

I'm surprised you all weren't aware of this. I carried this speech in my back pocket for a long time. Then again it was probably late '09 and early '10.

And you all have a good point. "The current business model is booming". I'm sorry Cass was that a misquote? Dr. Sinclair said it first and very acutely, in my opinion, stated the crux of the matter. I'll rough quote him because I no longer have Eskapa's roll of bathroom tissue but I can see it pretty clearly in my head:

"It's not a conspiracy. It is a collusion of disinterest. Those who are most likely to [see it or become aware of it] are least likely to benefit from it. And those who are most likely to benefit from it are least likely to [see it or become aware of it]"

I'll paraphrase (or give my interpretation):

If you are an addiction specialist, someone at the head of a rehab center or a scientist working for Big Pharma you are much more likely to come across this information but you are not very likely to benefit from anything showing a marked degree of promise that is already in existence and are more likely to toss it aside as unbelievable, or even a threat. But there aren't any conventions where these people get together to actively suppress the information.

On the other hand, if you are dying of the disease and have no resources you sure as hell aren't very likely to come across the same information.

[kronkcarr]

Why the resistance against meds in some quarters?

Ne posted ,"Some of us need medication". I agree and, in my case, I just wanted medication. And I consider myself lucky because of all the changes in my life in addition to stopping drinking like a fool.

I've attended AA for 2 periods of time in the past. I quit drinking for a year or more each time and I can't even remember why I started again. Baclofen made the quitting so much more pleasant--no shame, no fear, no white knuckling.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Why the resistance against meds in some quarters?

kronkcarr;1579718 wrote: Baclofen made the quitting so much more pleasant--no shame, no fear, no white knuckling.

That was an amazing and life altering experience for me. That is also why I consider baclofen a reasonable first line treatment, and not an afterthought or a treatment for *only* those of us who lived and breathed booze.

[StuckinLA]

Why the resistance against meds in some quarters?

Meh. I lost all interest in meds, AA, and the idea of recovery when I stopped drinking.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Why the resistance against meds in some quarters?

StuckinLA;1579745 wrote: Meh. I lost all interest in meds, AA, and the idea of recovery when I stopped drinking.

:H

[YouKayBee]

Why the resistance against meds in some quarters?

Ne/Neva Eva;1579740 wrote: That was an amazing and life altering experience for me. That is also why I consider baclofen a reasonable first line treatment, and not an afterthought or a treatment for *only* those of us who lived and breathed booze.

This is what Naltrexone did for me.

Many in the NHS or working with addiction are not aware of how Naltrexone works, not the Sinclair Method. Completely ignorant and oblivious and I find that not only shocking, but sad. I do however know that GPs get very limited training in addiction, and I would guess that for specialist workers/nurses et al is probably limited to the well known solutions.

My GP is amazed at what it's done for me, and how I've turned things around - become a different person in such a short time.

At least with Selincro on the market there may be an incentive to roll it out across the country. It's already started in Scotland.

[spiritwolf333]

Why the resistance against meds in some quarters?

In all respects, I believe alcoholism to be a disease -a tangible misfiring of brain activity. I am no scientist or chemist, just a laymen alcoholic who tried every known approach to recovery. How much of this mis-wiring is pre-alcohol or occurs during active alcoholism is not known and does not much matter.

The fact for me is this:
"You can not cure a physical problem with talk therapy"....Period...End of Story

You can delay the perceived reality (using talk therapy), but in the end, you still have a defect. Many times, pre-baclofen, I felt like I should have been on the island of broken toys-forever. Nothing worked. Finally, a medication that addresses the part of my brain that is responsible for the onslaught of recurring thoughts (baclofen) is brought to my attention. It not only works for the alcohol but for so many other cyclical thoughts. You can fix mechanical problems with mechanical solutions.

Institutions:
Follow the money.
(1) Alcohol Sales/Taxes
(2) Rehabs -Repeat Profits
(3) Government -Taxes/Employment
Too simple but true.