Gabapentin

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Gabapentin

Hi, EMC. Heartening to hear you've had such success with baclofen.

emc;1625567 wrote:
Maybe Gabapentin is the next one, maybe better than Baclofen???No.
emc;1625567 wrote: Maybe used together they can give a better results than used alone?

*maybe*

They do two completely different things.

If you're having a problem with scheduling, then you could change it.
If you can't sleep, you could find something that helps with that.

I did both of those things and they really helped. I also briefly tried Gabapentin. It had a very sedative effect on me. I felt...drugged. Obviously, not everyone has this experience.

Hope this helps you.

[emc]

Gabapentin

Hey NE,
about scheduling i'm ok, but you cannot say that Baclo is easy easy to manage... i just meant this ;-)
About sleeping... still didn't find nothing that really helps or that can help but interact with Baclofen in a not well known way. So ok, keep searching or just wait to my maintneance dose hoping to have my full nights back.

Back to Gabapentin subject... hmmmm i just found something that really don't like!
Histories of patents, obviously! :-(
Pregablin then Gabapentin, then law cases for Lyrica... no me gusta at all.

Making a lot of research on Baclofen i can say that i became little expert and developed some kind of "sensitivity" on the subject of the "economical interest behind a drug", so will continue this research on Gabapentin but for some quick reading... the background does not convince me at all.
In the beginning i thought that even Gabapentin patent was expired long time ago as Baclofen.

Maybe does not mean nothing... but anyway i will post some link if i'll find smth interesting.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Gabapentin

The company that makes Gabapentin/Neurontin (for those new to the discussion, not to be confused with little-g over-the-counter supplement) lost a HUGE lawsuit because they were marketing it directly to health care providers as an antidepressant and other-good-things without any proof. The company has many nefarious practices but they're pretty unrelated to this discussion. (For instance, they came out with a vaccine that...blah, blah, blah. Anyway. They suck.)

It looks like Gabapentin/Neurontin is really good in weird, novel ways. Like, it helps people with neuropathy for both their pain and mental health/well being. And that coupled with an antidepressant, usually an SSRI, really helps people with their pain a lot than either drug alone. That's how the misinformation started, actually. But it, like most drugs, is generic. And there ain't no one making kick-backs off of generic drugs, despite what you read all over this forum.

That said, there is some really interesting research, some of which is posted here, about Gabapentin/Neurontin and addiction. It's not just Gabapentin/Neurontin, though. It's the class of drugs. Topamax, the entire reason for this forum, is one of them.

The take away? This isn't new. Certain kinds of anti-seizure medications have an impact on addiction in ways no-one understands yet.

Oops. Gotta go.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Gabapentin

Sorry about that. I think my point was that it is all really interesting and exciting, even if it's not new-new.

But Gabapentin and baclofen do two different things entirely.

[spiritwolf333]

Gabapentin

Ne/Neva Eva;1625817 wrote: Sorry about that. I think my point was that it is all really interesting and exciting, even if it's not new-new.

But Gabapentin and baclofen do two different things entirely.

And Ne -what are the two different things? I am just not so sure that this statement is accurate.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Gabapentin

Hiya, Spirit.

I resorted to Wiki for the answer, and it's technical, but they are completely and totally different. Gabapentin is actually like topamax.

Gabapentin:

Gabapentin interacts with voltage-sensitive calcium channels in cortical neurons. Gabapentin increases the synaptic concentration of GABA, enhances GABA responses at non-synaptic sites in neuronal tissues, and reduces the release of mono-amine neurotransmitters. One of the mechanisms implicated in this effect of gabapentin is the reduction of the axon excitability measured as an amplitude change of the presynaptic fibre volley (FV) in the CA1 area of the hippocampus. This is mediated through its binding to presynaptic NMDA receptors. Other studies have shown that the antihyperalgesic and antiallodynic effects of gabapentin are mediated by the descending noradrenergic system, resulting in the activation of spinal alpha2-adrenergic receptors. Gabapentin has also been shown to bind and activate the adenosine A1 receptor.

hmmm. The Baclofen wiki is sadly lacking in the same sort of facts. Here's what it has:

Baclofen produces its effects by activating the GABAB receptor, similar to the drug GHB which also activates this receptor and shares some of its effects. However, baclofen does not have significant affinity for the GHB receptor, and has no known abuse potential.[10] The modulation of the GABAB receptor is what produces baclofen's range of therapeutic properties.

I'll try to find the other stuff (it's all on here, of course) that has to do with specifically where and how it works. It's all Greek to me, so I have to look it up every time.

From recollection, Gabapentin and topamax are more alike than Gabapentin and baclofen. There is nothing like baclofen, other than GHB and something something and maybe one other thing. All from memory, so I don't want to write the wrong thing and have someone suggest that the whole premise is wrong because I misremembered a fact.

The info is all here, though. Gabapentin/=baclofen. At all.

While exploring Gabapentin did you come across the fact that it has the same black box suicide warning as SSRIs and other antidepressants? Also, should be titrated. There's lots to know about these meds! All very interesting. Particularly since we don't have a lot of ideas about how they actually do what they do. Can't wait to study more about that...someday.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Gabapentin

Okay, an analogy would probably be useful. Comparing baclofen to Gabapentin...is like comparing aspirin to insulin. Or maybe like SSRI to MAO. I don't know enough about pharmaceuticals to know what an appropriate analogy is. They are two different things...And do two different things.

I have been trying really hard to avoid resorting to Terryk, but he knows. And he'll tell me where I'm wrong, too.

The reason it's important is simply because we can't go changing one to the other expecting the same result, because they don't do the same thing. Which is not to say that Gabapentin doesn't have a place in the arsenal. It might. I have no idea.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Gabapentin

Morning, JDizzle. Didn't mean to derail your thread. You still here?

[bacfen]

Gabapentin

Hi Ne -I might be wrong but I think JD is glad that we are having this discussion.

I somehow think that this is a very important topic to be discussed, not only for us that take baclofen, but for those who might be joining an af life in the future. Additionally, I have pm-d one of our members who may be able to clarify this entire issue. I really would like to know more -as you said -"we don't want to go changing one for another" unnecessarily. However, if Gabapentin is about to become mainstream and it works, I might want to ride that ride. For instance, the following article indicates that Gabapentin does not effect the GABBA-b but does help with anxiety and reduces alcohol intake. I am lost and perhaps I should stop trying to find out. Baclofen works for me at this stage of the game.

Now, I have read a little more regarding gabapentin and I become even more confused. I just don't have the knowledge or ability to come close to understanding this brain technology stuff.

Does gabapentin act as an agonist at native GABA(B) receptors


Abstract

Gabapentin, a novel anticonvulsant and analgesic, is a gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) analogue but was shown initially to have little affinity at GABA(A) or GABA(B) receptors. It was recently reported to be a selective agonist at GABA(B) receptors containing GABA(B1a)-GABA(B2) heterodimers, although several subsequent studies disproved that conclusion. In the present study, we examined whether gabapentin is an agonist at native GABA(B) receptors using a rat model of postoperative pain in vivo and periaqueductal gray (PAG) slices in vitro; PAG contains GABA(B) receptors, and their activation results in antinociception. An intrathecal injection of gabapentin or baclofen, a GABA(B) receptor agonist, induced antiallodynia in this postoperative pain model. Intrathecal injection of GABA(B) receptor antagonists CGP 35348 and CGP 55845 antagonized baclofen- but not gabapentin-induced antiallodynia. In ventrolateral PAG neurons, baclofen activated G-protein-coupled inwardly rectifying K(+) (GIRK) channels in a manner blocked by CGP 35348 or CGP 55845. However, gabapentin displayed no effect on the membrane current. In neurons unaffected by gabapentin, baclofen activated GIRK channels through GABA(B) receptors. It is concluded that gabapentin is not an agonist at GABA(B) receptors that are functional in baclofen-induced antiallodynia in the postoperative pain model in vivo and in GIRK channel activation in ventrolateral PAG neurons in vitro.

[spiritwolf333]

Gabapentin

Ne/Neva Eva;1625993 wrote: Okay, an analogy would probably be useful. Comparing baclofen to Gabapentin...is like comparing aspirin to insulin. Or maybe like SSRI to MAO. I don't know enough about pharmaceuticals to know what an appropriate analogy is. They are two different things...And do two different things.

I have been trying really hard to avoid resorting to Terryk, but he knows. And he'll tell me where I'm wrong, too.

The reason it's important is simply because we can't go changing one to the other expecting the same result, because they don't do the same thing. Which is not to say that Gabapentin doesn't have a place in the arsenal. It might. I have no idea.

And after reading this, I think I more understand where you are coming from:

Of all "anticraving medications used in animals, only one - Baclofen - has the unique property of suppressing the motivation to consume cocain, heroin, alcohol, nicotine and d-amphetamine. The effect is dose-dependent.
(Non 12 Step Program | Assisted Recovery Centers of Georgia, Inc.)

[emc]

Gabapentin

is not exact what they write there...
Baclofen works for alcohol, food, cocaine addiction too + just some day ago has been pubblish this doc about "cannabis" (here) but it does NOT work for sure for heroin nor for nicotine and no idea about amphetamine.
Alc food and cocaine they seem to "share" the same receptors on which Baclofen make his good job (ok much more complicate than this...).
Another recent doc proves to be effective as add-on to AD (Citalopram) in PTSD (here) and many other uses... ;-)

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Gabapentin

spiritwolf333;1628836 wrote: And after reading this, I think I more understand where you are coming from:

Of all "anticraving medications used in animals, only one - Baclofen - has the unique property of suppressing the motivation to consume cocain, heroin, alcohol, nicotine and d-amphetamine. The effect is dose-dependent.
(Non 12 Step Program | Assisted Recovery Centers of Georgia, Inc.)

No. That was not my point at all. In fact, that quote is complete and utter nonsense! It's actually funny.

Baclofen and gabapentin are completely different drugs. They do completely different things. That is and was and will always be the only point.

[JDizzle]

Gabapentin

Wow this thread is still alive?!?! Hahah Neva OCDed my thread.

[terryk]

Gabapentin

squeezed;1630878 wrote: Alcohol doesn't just hit GABAb receptors; it affects endorphin, dopamine, seratonin, and other receptors. It is the quintessential "dirty drug". After all, it is a simple 2-carbon molecule.

It makes no theoretical sense that substituting baclofen for it at one site (GABAb) can stop alcoholism. Maybe it can, but it will need proof in valid clinical studies.

Baclofen at GABAb modulates dopamine:

Bi-directional effects of GABA: B: receptor agonists on the mesolimbic dopamine system : Article : Nature Neuroscience

Baclofen at GABAb modulates serotonin:

Modulation of striatal serotonin metabolism by baclofen, a gamma-aminobutyric acidB receptor agonist.

Baclofen at GABAb modulates glutamate:

Roles of GABAB receptor subtypes in presynaptic auto- and heteroreceptor function regulating GABA and glutamate release

Baclofen at GABAb may affect noradrenaline:

Baclofen and noradrenergic function in the rat frontal cerebral cortex.I


squeezed;1630878 wrote:
The first large-scale blinded studies (from France and the Netherlands) will prob. be published in 2015. Since the follow-up are relatively short, and the protocols conservative, whatever the results there will be some who insist their personal experience trumps all.*

* That's okay, you can add them to your ignore list (you can start now!): Click Here to Add squeezed to Your Ignore List

-tk

[spiritwolf333]

Gabapentin

JDizzle;1630748 wrote: Wow this thread is still alive?!?! Hahah Neva OCDed my thread.

JD -Great to see you pop-in. Hope all is well. Any updates with the GabaP or otherwise?