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[skullbabyland]

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Colin;1606284 wrote: My experience is very similar to Kronk's.

I spent my first year on baclofen teetotal but always with the intention of testing the waters with live ammunition. Towards the end of that year I read Suppression of Alcohol Dependence Using Baclofen: A 2-Year Observational Study of 100 Patients which persuaded me that then was a great day to have an alcoholic drink.

9 Months later I have been drinking when I felt like drinking and not drinking when I felt like not drinking. At no point during the last 9 months have I been drunk. This is how I understand indifference - Take if you want it and don't take it if you don't want it.

I am profoundly grateful to Olivier Ameisen. During the past 21 months I have never had a craving and never had the feeling that I might be losing control. I am still continually aware that I might be living in a fairy story. This can't be so good.

Very cool to hear of your results, Colin. What dosage bac are you on? Is it a maintenance dose, do you plan to continue it indefinitely?

[Poink]

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I would like to be able to do things I never could: get drunk whenever I wanted, have the occasional Bloody Mary for breakfast and call it a day, put a 12 pack in the fridge and have it last a week or so, not be sure when the last time I even had a thought about alcohol was.

[Samstone]

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I prefer not to drink again, for me there's no such thing as moderation. I drink to get drunk so my life is a lot better without having to worry about drinking. I'm not into the meds. Don't want to deal with side effects. I never had a side effect by not drinking.

[Byrdlady]

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If we choose to take a pill to help us so we can drink AL, that is testimony to the power of this addiction. If the pill were to help you stop and stay stopped, I could see it, but to help you drink? That is like having a pill to help a heroin addict moderate...it doesn't make sense if you can get some distance from AL you can see it but when you are up close and personal, you can't....its pull is too strong.

I find it frightening and sad to know what an immovable force ALK is. In spite of everything we know, we are still drawn to it. For all the bad it has caused each and every one of us, the voice is there. All I know is that I feel 1000 times better without it than I ever did with it. Byrdie

[spiritwolf333]

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Would I like to change the way that I feel (or think) without the use of alcohol or drugs -absolutely. Even when we take a medication that allows us to not to want alcohol, are we not changing the way that we think or feel? How about no drugs or alcohol and just feel great all the time? Boring?

[Poink]

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There is absolutely no way to calculate what alcohol has cost me. But I know people who can split a pitcher of beer with an order of hot wings, who can go to Mardi Gras and get plastered, who can go to brunch once a month and have a couple of mimosas, who maybe have a couple of beers at the ballgame...They don't drive drunk, they don't break out in handcuffs, they don't wake up in gutters and they don't spend their lives wondering what might have been. They don't wake up with people they don't know, where they have no idea where they are, while their family is somewhere else.

I don't have a problem with alcohol as a substance. I have a problem with my reaction to drinking or not drinking alcohol.

It looks like, for now, my only real choice is going to be abstinence. My GP refuses to treat me anymore unless I quit drinking completely. But if it becomes perfected, it there becomes an easy way to drink without worry of re-addiction, to even drink heavily if I choose or to easily remain abstinent if I choose, as soon as that pill becomes available I want it.

In my case, drinking really wasn't my problem. My problem was that, from my first drink, I have never been able to control my drinking.

Complete control over alcohol. Yeah, that's the ticket.

[Jazi's Mum]

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Byrdlady, you may be misunderstanding what's being said by most who are using meds to help them control cravings.

For many the cravings stop after the personal dosage is reached, and then they get to decide whether to drink again or not. But at least they have that option when baclofen has given them back that control.

I have personal experience with being sober - completely sober - for over 5 years. But for me, I always had to remember to be sober. It was like a cloud hanging over my head. And the cloud burst with one drink - after more than 5 years.

The craving was there always. What I want to achieve is indifference. But if I do want to take a drink on a special occasion, or even every Saturday night I want that freedom.

So please try to understand the difference between those who use meds as an excuse to drink, and those who want indifference to alcohol. There are some like that. But for most who try the meds and succeed in taking them according to proper protocols there is that disappearance of cravings. And they then have a choice.

I will never disparage those who use the AA model. I just want to forget about drinking so baclofen is the best choice for me. The science is there, you can't deny the march of research and scientific proof that some drugs do help people stop, or control drinking. And I do mean proof. It's not productive, in my humble opinion, to keep telling us that abstinence is the only way. It used to be, but it isn't now.
JMum

[Byrdlady]

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Jazi's Mom, thank you for trying to clarify my opinion, but I stick to what I posted. I believe this debate depends largely on which side of sobriety you are on. When AL is still involved, the addiction wants to keep it on board at any cost. My 2 cents, and I've been on both sides of the equation now, too. Thanks, Byrdie

[Poink]

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There are two different things being argued here. One is basically prohibition, the abolishment of human consumption of alcohol. The other is a pill that would cure the disease of alcoholism, which would make obsolete the term "sobriety." ANYONE could take a drink without the fear of wanting or needing another one, a pill that would make obsolete the term "addiction."

If there were such a pill that could remove the addiction from my mind or body or soul, wherever it lurks, and ensure that I could be sober at any time and on any day that I wanted, no fuss no muss, why would I not take it?

Everyone is of course allowed to have their opinion about everything, but I see no spiritual gain over a lifelong struggle to remove a demon from your being and taking a pill destroying it instantly.

BUT...In my case I am not talking necessarily about Baclofen. I am talking about what they will come out with in 5, 10 or 20 years. And they will. I am on LDB and other things, and am trying to go abstinent. I am unable to moderate. And I have heard no real success stories where people on HDB could return to heavy drinking without becoming re-addicted.

I have never wanted to limit myself to one drink and quit. That's not what alcohol is for. If you are not going to consume enough alcohol to enjoy the effects of alcohol then why drink alcohol. But if medicine could allow be to consume alcohol under MY terms, I would take it.

But that's just me.

[chelsea98]

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i think if you asked most alcoholics what they would like they would like to carry on drinking. i still do, but now i have a choice and i have control. i've been alcohol free (i'll get to finer detail) for over 3 months. this past christmas was my first off the booze, however, i did drink on 5 occasions. the first was at a friends one evening, 1 large glass of red wine and that was it. the second was xmas day, 2 glasses of champagne and 2 cans of guiness. the third was boxing day, 3 large beers and 3 shots of paulinka. then new years eve, one large beer, 3 glasses of prosecco and 3 glasses of champagne. the last was on the 4th, one large bottle of corona. not one of the following days after drinking did i have cravings for more. this is what baclofen has given me, control and choice. i dont have anything on the horizon which involves drinking and im remaining abstinent purely because of bac.

[spiritwolf333]

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If you ask most any alcoholic (not fully recovered) if he or she would like to continue drinking if they could moderate -well, ????

Why do people drink in the first place is the real question?

[Jazi's Mum]

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This statement jumped right out at me and it shows how much misunderstanding there can be:

And I have heard no real success stories where people on HDB could return to heavy drinking without becoming re-addicted.

No one in their right mind would consider "returning to heavy drinking" after reaching a switch with baclofen. The whole point in taking high dose baclofen is to stop the cravings so the drinker can stop "heavy drinking."

From my perspective there are two paths, both of which I have experienced:

1) the AA model, or complete abstinence;

2) using a drug to a) reduce cravings and/or b) eliminate the high from drinking.

Now using 1) means never having a drink because the FEAR is always there - one drink leads to many and the addiction is back. But I maintain that in this model the addiction never goes away at all. White-knuckling for the rest of your life is the result. Being the odd man out of all social situations is the result.

But using b) CAN mean a re-training or re-wiring of the brain. This is clearly explained in The Sinclair Method book, and in the Dr. Ameinsen book, The End of my Addiction.

I realize everyone chooses the path that seems to fit their needs. However, the complete denial of the efficacy of drug therapy for alcoholism is very odd given the increasing evidence to the contrary.
JMum

[Poink]

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This is all just my decidedly uneducated opinion, but it is the way I feel.

I believe that I have drank alcoholically since my first drink, but it was a long time before I recognized it. And there were many times I really enjoyed drinking heavily. Even now, there are times I like sitting around with friends and having a bunch of drinks. I just can't apply the brakes. I enjoy getting drunk. I just don't enjoy having to.

There is "heavy drinking" where a person can drink as much as they want without having any problems, and can start and stop as they please. There is "problem drinking" where a person engages in heavy drinking but can stop when the problems start. And then there is alcoholic drinking, generally not being able to stop once you start or being unable to resist starting once you stop, regardless of problems.

The anecdotal evidence on this site points to most people who re-engage in heavy drinking after reaching indifference with HDB "losing" their switch. The great benefit of HDB seems to be "indifference", and to losing the desire to engage in further heavy drinking. That's great, and science is indeed proving that baclofen is wonderful at that. I certainly believe that people have achieved sobriety with HDB and are able to drink socially, to have the occasional drink or to sometimes even to get drunk.

What I was referring to in an earlier post was a medical advance that would completely cure me and make me immune to re-addiction. A pill, a vaccination, genetic engineering...there will one day be something that does that.

Many people that escape the grips of alcoholism never want to take another drink. Some never want to get drunk again. I would like to drink in any fashion I chose with absolutely no worry that the next morning I would wake up and feel like I had to have a drink. I would like to be able to drink any amount at any time and stop at any time.

I suffer from some other conditions that are controlled with medication. As long as I take the medication I am fine, but it's not a perfect solution. One of disorders is the subject of testing involving genetic engineering that might eliminate the problem for good. No more medicine, no more disorder.

I don't know. Perhaps the goal should be to get alcohol completely out of my life. Right now that is my goal. I have tried TSM and HDB, actually in combination. I may again one day try HDB. I believe in it. I have been on baclofen, either HDB or LDB for almost two years now.

But like they say in AA, I'm one of those looking for a softer, easier way.

[spiritwolf333]

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whatever...;1609767 wrote: Sorry spirit but I'm kinda lost with your post ????

In short, I guess what I am trying to say is that when one is actively engaged in alcoholism, he or she can see no other way out. The only normalcy one can even imagine is to drink. Therefore, to ask any alcoholic if they want to quit forever or would rather learn to moderate is not really a fair question. Only when you have had the alcohol out of your system for a long enough time can this question be valid.

And, with alcohol or any other mind altering substance, why are we taking this chemical in to begin with? At least for me, it is to change the way that I feel. It is not because I really like the taste of booze.

[kronkcarr]

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spirit,

I've not drank like I used to in over a year and, like I previously posted, I do want to drink. I want to, and am able to, have a glass of wine with a friend or a drink with dinner at a gathering. For me it's a ritual.
Baclofen makes this possible. I also fully know that if I bring alcohol into my home I have to make the choice to not unthinkingly drink, drink, drink.

So many people want to escape. That's why I drank. I didn't like how I felt. I'm watching a show about people who are "living dolls". They make themselves up like dolls, dress like dolls and act like dolls because they don't like who they are. I've been reading about artists who create their own universes in their art because they aren't comfortable in this world. I saw a show the other night about a nonprofit group that provides free surgeries for teens who are bullied because of their looks. That feels like a momentary fix to me.

I've been thinking that most kids (me) weren't really taught how to cope when things are horribly hard. I think this is a great place to start. My son and I talk about the school system and how everyone is equal, special and yet unique. When he grows up this may or may not be true and it will be good if he has skills to deal with the hardships that may come.