Started on Bac ... But Will I Stop?

[Accel7]

Started on Bac ... But Will I Stop?

Thank you, kronkcarr and bleep, for affirming that my reactions weren't the isolated case of a "pill popper." No experience with acid or Ecstasy, but this sensation definitely feels like something. Floaty, buzzed, mellowed-out ... I expected to reach a state of indifference, but this came as a surprise. As I figured would be the case, days two and three at 200mg were somewhat less intense, but still that tingly sensation.

However, I have NOT reached my switch. Last night went to visit my Dad. He has a cabinet full of liquor (mostly for party guests; he doesn't drink hard stuff any more). After he went to bed, I wanted further testing. Would AL taste bad? Would I put it down after a glass? Would the bac lower cravings or buzz?

Answer: not yet. I had four big glasses of Jack Daniel's. Had the usual effect. I felt no different; got the usual buzz and desire to have more. The one change, tho, is I have begun to string together more and more AF nights ... four in a row, the some wine, then three AF, then Jack. So ... progress. But no switch, no indifference. I'm also reluctant to increase my bac dose at this point, as 200mg is pretty high, I'm feeling those floaty sensations, and, of course, I'm burning through the bac pretty fast. My doc has been great but is only comfortable with writing for 140mg/day so far (costs me about $40 with insurance). Bums me out, because, long-term, I do want to achieve a switch dose. Just not sure how high I'll have to go. And what will the spacey effects be THEN? For now, I'm gonna hang at 200mg, let it settle in, try with willpower to squeeze in as many AF nights as possible, and see if a continued dose of bac, combined with more and more sober nights, gets me to a better place. We'll see.

[neophyte]

Started on Bac ... But Will I Stop?

i found that before my switch dose at 295mg i was like you, having more and more days AF from 220mg and up. hopefully you dont need to go as high as me.

[spiritwolf333]

Started on Bac ... But Will I Stop?

But Accel -will you quit once you start? Or, do you know yet? Has your cocaine like high now departed? These are important questions for newcomers. Thanks for taking the time to answer.

[kronkcarr]

Started on Bac ... But Will I Stop?

I sat at what turned out to be my switch for weeks due to my dr. My issue was drinking alone and I wouldn't let myself do it. At the start of my switch it was a battle. A couple of weeks later it wasn't. Hang tough.

[spiritwolf333]

Started on Bac ... But Will I Stop?

Accel -just got to hand it to you; what a great thread and interesting input posts. I am still unsure of your thread question; will you stop what?

Of course you are not a pill popper -you would have said that you were from the beginning. After all, you are only on this forum to seek advice and get help for your initial trials using baclofen?

I think those of who post here are just glad to be able to try and help someone like you trying to make your way thru the initial phases of baclofen. Thank you for your posts.

[Accel7]

Started on Bac ... But Will I Stop?

To answer the meaning of my thread's title ... "but will I stop?" ... really it means two things: (1) will I stop taking bac because the SEs are just too much to handle, and (2) will I stop bac simply because it doesn't work for me.

As to question (1), the SEs have lately become much more manageable. I still get tired, and find myself nodding off when I'm reading a book. But the chest pressure I experienced at first has all but gone. Now, I'm left with some tingling in my lips and fingers (I'm at 200mg) and that spacey/loopy feeling that tells me I'm definitely on something. Man, I walk into rooms all the time and forget why I went in. This morning, I got out of the shower and then realized I'd forgotten to rinse the shampoo out of my hair! And my dreams ... forget it. Just wild, theatric, incredibly detailed -- and I remember everything in the morning. I may post one of them -- at the risk of boring everyone on here.

As for question (2) ... dunno yet. I definitely haven't swtiched. Last night I hit the Jack D again. Four big glasses full. I was alone, the bottle was there, and I just wasn't indifferent enough not to. I've really been hoping the bac would just step up and say, "you don't want that stuff," but thus far it hasn't. Then again, maybe I'm relying TOO much on the expectation of the bac to work. As one generous responder in this thread noted, it may just take lots of AF nights strung together, letting the bac do its stuff, before a "soft switch" takes over. Perhaps the combo of bac and some distance from AL will get me to a switch. As I've noted earlier, I'm reluctant right now to increase my dose, because I'm already pretty high (200mg) and I'm pretty much taking 20mg tabs all day long. It's gonna be expensive to go higher--and more risk of further SEs and more loopiness, etc. I'm willing to go up eventually ... but I may simply try harder to will away the bottle and see if I can get some more AF nights under my belt, see if that helps. My record so far is four nights in a row--not bad for me, actually.

I've also heard many people on this board talk about the emotional baggage attached with drinking. And I think, for me, that's really the heart of my problem. I LOVE the ritual. I never drink during the day, but come cocktail hour ... the clink of the ice cubes in the glass, the pretty bottles gleaming on the bar, that first biting rush of whiskey flowing into my veins ... by not drinking, I'm taking away an entire part of my life's routine from the past 30 years. It's as if someone told me, "you can't read any more," or "you never get to watch movies." The whole ACT of drinking is so entrenched in who I am and what I do, NOT doing it feels completely bizarre. And I'm not even talking about the intoxication aspect. In some ways, I really think I'm not that physically addicted to alcohol. When I don't drink, I don't get DTs or start pacing around or looking longingly at the bottles of mouthwash in the medicine cabinet. But come 5 o'clock, I miss everything to do with "happy hour." Even taking my long sober walks, I pass by the bar windows and see all the people inside, happy and laughing and chatting behind beers and glasses of wine or martinis. And I know most of them are going to have one or maybe two and then go home, buzzed but in control. But I'd stay too long and drink too much and end up staggering out or saying something inappropriate to someone ... I hate that I've reached this place. I'm jealous of the people who can drink in fun and moderation. And I'm pissed off that that whole bar scene, all that rosy conviviality, that twilight glow and those clinking glasses, is rapidly becoming off-limits to me, perhaps forever. And even my own home bar, once lighted with colored bottles from around the world, is now dark and empty.

Yes, the buzz is hard to bid adieu to. But the ritual ... that's the toughest farewell of all.

[spiritwolf333]

Started on Bac ... But Will I Stop?

Accel7;1621108 wrote: To answer the meaning of my thread's title ... "but will I stop?" ... really it means two things: (1) will I stop taking bac because the SEs are just too much to handle, and (2) will I stop bac simply because it doesn't work for me.

Accel -when I first read the title to this thread, it sounded like someone who was prepared to attack baclofen -once again. It sounded as if you had already made up your mind that baclofen was not going to work -and thus, your attacks on baclofen would begin; with detailed accounts of all the negatives and nothing positive. A typical troll approach. And now, from what you post, just sounds like (perhaps) you were just extremely cautious and weary of baclofen and the reports of success here on the forum.

As to question (1), the SEs have lately become much more manageable. I still get tired, and find myself nodding off when I'm reading a book. But the chest pressure I experienced at first has all but gone. Now, I'm left with some tingling in my lips and fingers (I'm at 200mg) and that spacey/loopy feeling that tells me I'm definitely on something. Man, I walk into rooms all the time and forget why I went in. This morning, I got out of the shower and then realized I'd forgotten to rinse the shampoo out of my hair! And my dreams ... forget it. Just wild, theatric, incredibly detailed -- and I remember everything in the morning. I may post one of them -- at the risk of boring everyone on here.

As for question (2) ... dunno yet. I definitely haven't swtiched. Last night I hit the Jack D again. Four big glasses full. I was alone, the bottle was there, and I just wasn't indifferent enough not to. I've really been hoping the bac would just step up and say, "you don't want that stuff," but thus far it hasn't. Then again, maybe I'm relying TOO much on the expectation of the bac to work. As one generous responder in this thread noted, it may just take lots of AF nights strung together, letting the bac do its stuff, before a "soft switch" takes over. Perhaps the combo of bac and some distance from AL will get me to a switch. As I've noted earlier, I'm reluctant right now to increase my dose, because I'm already pretty high (200mg) and I'm pretty much taking 20mg tabs all day long. It's gonna be expensive to go higher--and more risk of further SEs and more loopiness, etc. I'm willing to go up eventually ... but I may simply try harder to will away the bottle and see if I can get some more AF nights under my belt, see if that helps. My record so far is four nights in a row--not bad for me, actually.

I've also heard many people on this board talk about the emotional baggage attached with drinking. And I think, for me, that's really the heart of my problem. I LOVE the ritual. I never drink during the day, but come cocktail hour ... the clink of the ice cubes in the glass, the pretty bottles gleaming on the bar, that first biting rush of whiskey flowing into my veins ... by not drinking, I'm taking away an entire part of my life's routine from the past 30 years. It's as if someone told me, "you can't read any more," or "you never get to watch movies." The whole ACT of drinking is so entrenched in who I am and what I do, NOT doing it feels completely bizarre. And I'm not even talking about the intoxication aspect. In some ways, I really think I'm not that physically addicted to alcohol. When I don't drink, I don't get DTs or start pacing around or looking longingly at the bottles of mouthwash in the medicine cabinet. But come 5 o'clock, I miss everything to do with "happy hour." Even taking my long sober walks, I pass by the bar windows and see all the people inside, happy and laughing and chatting behind beers and glasses of wine or martinis. And I know most of them are going to have one or maybe two and then go home, buzzed but in control. But I'd stay too long and drink too much and end up staggering out or saying something inappropriate to someone ... I hate that I've reached this place. I'm jealous of the people who can drink in fun and moderation. And I'm pissed off that that whole bar scene, all that rosy conviviality, that twilight glow and those clinking glasses, is rapidly becoming off-limits to me, perhaps forever. And even my own home bar, once lighted with colored bottles from around the world, is now dark and empty.

Yes, the buzz is hard to bid adieu to. But the ritual ... that's the toughest farewell of all.
Hi Accel -thanks for the detailed post. The way you write is quite professional -surly you have a written a book or two?

You make some very remarkable points in this post. I am going to re-read and address most of the points later. The two points that I would like to comment on now are regarding:
(1) Habit
(2) Continuance of Drinking while taking baclofen

First, Habit: This is usually the deal breaker for people who drink alcoholically. As you say, you drank for x number of years and it is a fixed part of your brain-life. I have a feeling it will always remain a "thought" in my mind (or at least I hope the thought of alcohol does -and hopefully not repeat). And, the more one drank before finally quitting, the more holes in time there are to fill. For me, quitting alcohol did not just mean that I would change some things in my life; no quitting alcohol meant that my entire life (as I had known) would change. This is almost an understatement.

Second: To continue drinking while trying to quit alcohol and taking baclofen:
I usually get slammed on this point by the many members here on mwo that continued to drink until they found a "switch". I do not deny their experience and certainly think it would be a great way to quit drinking -less pain and less jolting to the coming lifestyle change. And here is my "however".

***However, continuing to drink while titrating up on baclofen seems to be totally counter productive and only a step in a direction towards moderating. I have to believe that there are many drugs available -on the market- that will minimize the amount you drink based strictly on the lack of ability to function while taking said medication. Now, Baclofen. From what I understand, baclofen actually starts a brain-rewiring process. When taking baclofen, certain brain structures actually undergo a physical transformation and works to re-set brain wave activity. I am not a chemist, etc.... so, I just don't know how to present my understanding.

Now, if you continue drinking while taking baclofen, can this re-wiring take place? Or, maybe it takes place but at a much slower and confusing rate? A simple mind like mine just says that you somehow have to stop adding fuel to the fire if you want to put out the fire.

Just a thought (if even that).

[Accel7]

Started on Bac ... But Will I Stop?

I definitely WANT the bac to work. Always have. I did a LOT of research prior to starting a bac regimen (including Dr. A's book, papers, this forum and others). It also helps that my doctor is French. He was very familiar with Dr. A's book, and had even given it to a few patients to guide them into bac therapy. He says he has several problem drinkers who are now more or less AF thanks to bac--though they've managed with doses as small as 30mg/day. I find that hard to believe, but do acknowledge that everyone is different.

No, my caution simply stemmed from not being sure I'd be able to ride out the SEs, and also whether bac would work. I've really been hoping bac would do the "heavy lifting"--simply providing me with a psycho-physiological "wall" that would make me turn up my nose at the thought of booze. That hasn't happened, though I admit I haven't been giving the lots-of-AF-nights route a chance. I'll need to try harder on that front, see if the bac eventually takes hold, and maybe I'll eventually ramp up the dosage, too.

[skullbabyland]

Started on Bac ... But Will I Stop?

Hey Accel, just checkin in on you. How are things going for you?

[Accel7]

Started on Bac ... But Will I Stop?

Was planning to post today, but thank you, Skull, for reaching out. Appreciate your checking up on me...

Lately, I have to wonder if the "will I stop?" part of my thread title was prescient. I'm beginning to wonder if bac is for me. Haven't posted for the past week or so as I've just been hanging out at a dose of 250mg. Was really hoping at this lofty dose I'd feel a sure and powerful switch, but in reality ... not much. I managed to go four nights AF, but then two nights ago had several glasses of gin (had some really bad news during the day that set me off). But then managed to have nothing last night, so in that respect I suppose I AM getting some positive effect (more AF nights than usual). But I'm not switched. I still think about AL, still crave it from time to time. Man, Dr. A's book (which I've since re-read) really makes it seem like a more clear-cut TAKE BAC = STOP AL CRAVING relationship. I'm at or pretty near the dose where he switched (yes, I realize everyone is different, but I'm not sure I want to go higher).

Here are the problems. (1) I'm at 250mg and haven't switched. I'll admit, several people on here have said it's more of a "soft switch," and that I simply need to give the bac time to work--and the more AF nights the better. So, okay, I accept that. I haven't been on HDB that long. But (2) though almost all the SEs have diminished (no more chest pressure, breathing pretty much ok, even libido back), I still get awfully tired during the day. This is scary; I'm almost indifferent to stuff (tho not, alas, AL). Last Thursday, I found out I had to give a client four pitches for projects the following Tuesday. By Sunday I had written nothing. By Monday night I had three pitches written ... and doing so was absolute agony. My meeting was at 11AM Tues. I got up early Tues, and by stroke of luck found a document on an old hard drive that had some previous pitch ideas on it. I made it to the meeting with five pitches to show. And they seemed to go over well. Trouble is ... in my state of mind I almost convinced myself it would be OK to go into the meeting and tell them I couldn't come up with four. There is NO WAY the non-bac me would've acted like that. I'm in a creative job, and trying to be creative on this stuff is torture.

The final kicker (3) is simple financial reality. I'm not sure I can afford to stay on HDB. My doc has been great, and written me a scrip for 140mg. I may have to work down to the prescribed 140mg (yes, I'll go slowly) and then hope a "soft switch" eventually sets in -- though I'm not particularly hopeful. Really figured at 250mg I'd feel a stronger urge to turn up my nose to the bottle.

As for that "wired" / high feeling I mentioned in an earlier post ... I still get it. Yesterday, for some reason, was really powerful. I just felt "on something" all day. I know I'm not the only one to feel this way. I found this thread where another MWO member speaks of similar sensations on bac. It's not completely unpleasant, but not at all what I expected. Certainly I don't feel the utter serenity, etc., that Dr. A mentions. I'm just tired or wired or both.

I almost wonder if I maybe I don't suffer from GAD. Maybe I'm not even that addicted to AL. Maybe I'm just addicted to the whole ritual of drinking, and perhaps that's why the bac is having less of a positive effect on me?

Who knows. Maybe I'm just not giving the bac enough time to work. But I'm gonna have to titrate down, I think. Just too much $$$ at this level. I don't know how you all do it (yes, I realize drinking itself has all sorts of attendant costs, but right now a big scrip cost couldn't come at a worse time).

Bummer. Maybe at a lower does the somnolence will diminish and the bac can still "rewire" my brain? Hope so.

[spiritwolf333]

Started on Bac ... But Will I Stop?

Accel7;1626289 wrote: Was planning to post today, but thank you, Skull, for reaching out. Appreciate your checking up on me...

Lately, I have to wonder if the "will I stop?" part of my thread title was prescient. I'm beginning to wonder if bac is for me. Haven't posted for the past week or so as I've just been hanging out at a dose of 250mg. Was really hoping at this lofty dose I'd feel a sure and powerful switch, but in reality ... not much. I managed to go four nights AF, but then two nights ago had several glasses of gin (had some really bad news during the day that set me off). But then managed to have nothing last night, so in that respect I suppose I AM getting some positive effect (more AF nights than usual). But I'm not switched. I still think about AL, still crave it from time to time. Man, Dr. A's book (which I've since re-read) really makes it seem like a more clear-cut TAKE BAC = STOP AL CRAVING relationship. I'm at or pretty near the dose where he switched (yes, I realize everyone is different, but I'm not sure I want to go higher).

Here are the problems. (1) I'm at 250mg and haven't switched. I'll admit, several people on here have said it's more of a "soft switch," and that I simply need to give the bac time to work--and the more AF nights the better. So, okay, I accept that. I haven't been on HDB that long. But (2) though almost all the SEs have diminished (no more chest pressure, breathing pretty much ok, even libido back), I still get awfully tired during the day. This is scary; I'm almost indifferent to stuff (tho not, alas, AL). Last Thursday, I found out I had to give a client four pitches for projects the following Tuesday. By Sunday I had written nothing. By Monday night I had three pitches written ... and doing so was absolute agony. My meeting was at 11AM Tues. I got up early Tues, and by stroke of luck found a document on an old hard drive that had some previous pitch ideas on it. I made it to the meeting with five pitches to show. And they seemed to go over well. Trouble is ... in my state of mind I almost convinced myself it would be OK to go into the meeting and tell them I couldn't come up with four. There is NO WAY the non-bac me would've acted like that. I'm in a creative job, and trying to be creative on this stuff is torture.

The final kicker (3) is simple financial reality. I'm not sure I can afford to stay on HDB. My doc has been great, and written me a scrip for 140mg. But I've had to supplement with 200 pills from River (they were great, BTW--pills arrived in a week)--but those cost me $240. I understand goldpharma might be a little cheaper, but their site seems to say they need a scrip to back up my order. At 250mg/day, I'm burning through the stuff really fast. Scared I'll run out, so I may have to make another international order before I start titrating down. I may have to work down to the prescribed 140mg (yes, I'll go slowly) and then hope a "soft switch" eventually sets in -- though I'm not particularly hopeful. Really figured at 250mg I'd feel a stronger urge to turn up my nose to the bottle.

As for that "wired" / high feeling I mentioned in an earlier post ... I still get it. Yesterday, for some reason, was really powerful. I just felt "on something" all day. I know I'm not the only one to feel this way. I found this thread where another MWO member speaks of similar sensations on bac. It's not completely unpleasant, but not at all what I expected. Certainly I don't feel the utter serenity, etc., that Dr. A mentions. I'm just tired or wired or both.

I almost wonder if I maybe I don't suffer from GAD. Maybe I'm not even that addicted to AL. Maybe I'm just addicted to the whole ritual of drinking, and perhaps that's why the bac is having less of a positive effect on me?

Who knows. Maybe I'm just not giving the bac enough time to work. But I'm gonna have to titrate down, I think. Just too much $$$ at this level. I don't know how you all do it (yes, I realize drinking itself has all sorts of attendant costs, but right now a big scrip cost couldn't come at a worse time).

Bummer. Maybe at a lower does the somnolence will diminish and the bac can still "rewire" my brain? Hope so.
Hi Accel- Sorry to hear about predicament -and alcohol is "torture". Its the only disease that tells you that you don't have a disease. I know many on this forum found some kind of switch while still drinking, but I still have to believe it must be extremely difficult to achieve. Congrats on the 4 days af -that is huge for an alcoholic.

I certainly understand what you are saying about being addicted to the ritual of drinking. Me, the buying, the hiding, the romancing thoughts of alcohol, the daily sobering up, etc...- all part of a ritual. But for me, I knew what the reality was -I was a drunk (alcoholic) who could not put the bottle down. Anyway, I am just glad that I was able to get a few weeks sober time in and then the baclofen took over from there.

Thanks for your post.

[skullbabyland]

Started on Bac ... But Will I Stop?

Accel- good post. If you don't mind some unsolicited advice- if I was in your shoes, while I'm at this current dose, I'd commit to 30 days AF. Or even 15 if 30 is too overwhelming. That really may make a giant difference and help you find more solid indifference-- and you won't know until you try. It'd be tragic if you were so close to indifference and just didn't know it, and missed it by going down or giving up bac too soon. I would say it's worth the effort to do now, and only then make a decision.

It seems to be a really common experience for many finding success that they find that some conscious effort is needed in conjunction with the bac. For many of us, just bac alone does not provide us with indifference (though I've read some that have). Just saying, for many of us it's not so easy, but it's still waaaay easier than to try to do it without bac.

[Accel7]

Started on Bac ... But Will I Stop?

You make a good point, Skull: I've made it this far (all the way up to 250mg) ... I might as well give the bac some time to strut it's stuff.

OK ... I will make a concerted effort to string together as many AF nights as I can. The good news: all alcohol is now out of the house. I had a visit a few nights ago from an old martini buddy, and duly bought a fifth of Tanqueray. I actually drank "tiny 'tinis" (half glasses), but after three ended up hitting the wine. So I had a boozy night ... and of course fell asleep right in my chair (in front of my friend). The next morning I poured out the rest of the gin, and now there's nothing--no liquor, no vino--in the house. And I won't buy any. No social commitments coming up to tempt me, either. This is as good a time as any to focus on being AF. So I will.

I'll stay at 250mg for now. Maybe if this gives me some "distance" from AL then I can slowly titrate down. Again, it's just gonna be too much $$$ to stay at super-HDB. But as you said ... let's see if I hit the soft switch. The 250mg is certainly tolerable ... even pleasant.

Will keep you posted.

[Xadrian]

Started on Bac ... But Will I Stop?

Accel, if HDB can help you stop drinking, the money you save for the alcohol can (partially) pay for the baclofen.
Moreover, maintenance doses tend to be between half and two-thirds of the switch dose.

By staying some time AF, you can determine if the strong cravings are still there or not.

Good luck!

[Accel7]

Started on Bac ... But Will I Stop?

Now on six days AF. A new record for me. Won't be drinking tonight. Having zero temptations in the house helps. So does 250mg of bac.
Taking it day by day but very motivated to keep this string unbroken ...