starting a 2nd run at bac

[Colin]

starting a 2nd run at bac

takeover;1627873 wrote:
Colin- thanks for the links. I'd found the 2nd link on scribd but it wouldn't let me print, so appreciate it-

Sorry, I don't have a printer. Can anybody help?

Why can't takeover print the PDF https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59463672/Prescribing-Guide-for-Baclofen-in-the-Treatment-of-Alcoholism-Don.pdf ?

[spiritwolf333]

starting a 2nd run at bac

neophyte;1627893 wrote: im not a doctor, but this is my opinion

takeover - there is a lot of anecdotal claims of ssris increasing the cravings on alcohol, many members on MWO have experienced this, do a search online and you will see more claims. i dont know if there are any studies backing this. i do have my own experience. i've been on 50mg of zoloft for years and i believe it partially caused my alcoholism. when i was stable on bac i updated the zoloft to 100mg and the cravings came back stronger, so i went back to 50 and i plan on discontinuing it completely and reducing my bac down.

Hi all and Neo: I have never really thought much about the SSRI issue and my alcoholism until I read this thread and this post.

I was on Effexor for about 18 months. At the time, I guess I wanted to believe that it was helping. I specifically recall having to drink twice what I normally did to chase the buzz. Again, at that time, I had no intentions of giving up alcohol so I just kept drinking double to triple the amount of al. Furthermore, I remember after I came off the Effexor (it was hell), I continued drinking the 2 to 3 times normal al intake. For nothing more than curiosity, I have got to read more regarding this issue. And one thing is for sure; I hope to never-never take another AD again.

[takeover]

starting a 2nd run at bac

day 7 at 90mg

hello all-
thanks for your thoughts.

colin - i am able to print that link, thanks. what i was saying was, i found the same document - but on scribd - and there, you can't print without paying for a subscription, now. so your link is superior, thanks.

spiritwolf - can you say more about why coming off effexor was "hell"? did you experience withdrawal syndrome? and how much was 2-3x normal intake?

freedom4me - that guide is quite pricey on amazon ($51+) although more manageable on lulu ($16), but there is no electronic format (am i missing something?) since it's going to take a while to order it - can you share what it says about combination with celexa? Also, does it say how to cope with nausea?

neophyte - i have found that doctors span the same spectrum as ordinary humans, with most being pretty closed-minded - thus now that i've found a potentially open-minded doctor - i mean one that will even read a medical study, lol (most won't!!) - i'm really going to try to press the issue of baclofen.

i've talked about the alcohol issue with 5, 6 GPs. the most memorable one was probably the first. she seemed to think my alcohol use had to do with my ego (rather in line with AA dogma.) she was perceptive that there was an emotional basis, but she felt the cure would be for me to set ego aside - and part of her solution was for me to get a job as a janitor. i shared how i have a professional degree, and part of alcohol use was when i got down about how i felt i should be further along in my career. she said my ego was the problem and i needed to get a job as a janitor to learn to be grateful. i think her heart was in the right place, but i went on a bender for a few weeks after that, after having been told that my alcohol use was purely the result of selfishness and egotistical attitude. so in the end, that wasn't very helpful.

update 2:
today is day 7, following amiesen's schedule (Starting at 30mg and titrating up 20mgs every 3rd day.) it's actually been ten years to the month since amiesen reached indifference (February 2004.)

the results have been interesting. some days, i've just had a few drinks and then felt a lack of interest. yesterday, i had 10, the most since i started the baclofen regimen.. but today, i didn't even start drinking until 3, 4 hours after getting home - working out, dinner, etc. and that's a rarity for me. just felt gross after the weight gain from the binge yesterday..

it's curious - i seem to feel a bit of relaxation in the muscles, which seems to translate into a heightened/improved mood. i carry a lot of tension in the shoulders, so much that the left one "clicks" - but i noticed today for the first time in a long time that i did not feel any "clicking."

a side effect seems to be a bit of dizziness, or light nausea. it seems to be more prevalent especially after drinking - the carbonated stuff like beer - and, although i've mostly stopped smoking, the other day i had 2 cigs and felt positively disgusting afterward - more so than usual, and i attribute that to the baclofen. the nausea has been tolerable though - it's more like a bit of lightheadedness. as i contemplate fully stopping, i wonder how much of that challenge is mental - it's like a placeholder, an activity, a guaranteed relaxer on the weekend - but also, completely stopping means dealing with the stuff i was blocking out with alcohol.

i will try adding in the celexa for a few days next week - but i am inclined to stop before i experience withdrawal if baclofen can achieve the same results, and hopefully i can get GP support on that as well. in all my previous experience, the sexual dysfunction on SSRIs is the worst. it basically feels like chemical castration, being unable to perform on it. my thoughts are - how can taking something for depression help - won't you just become more depressed when your sexual plumbing doesn't work, and you gain weight/get fatter? i also have very intense, vivid disturbing dreams (not pleasant or positive ones), on SSRIs. that's been my experience, anyway. but i feel like i should be able to tell the doctor i tried the SSRI he prescribed, to marshal support and an argument for high-dose baclofen.

i'll keep checking into this thread. thanks for your thoughts and contributions, they are helpful. i hope documenting this helps others. hopefully it ends in success and provides more anecdotal evidence.. i've been looking for a solution for a long time.

[neophyte]

starting a 2nd run at bac

based on what you say, it sounds like youre already getting close, my drinking and cravings didnt change at all below 200mg, only the hang overs and "the fear" the next day after drinking got worse and worse. i sometimes try and use the old bad times as a reason to remember to never to go back to drinking, however the mind tends to forget unpleasant experiences and remember positive ones. i guess thats a big reason why quitting drinking is so hard.

[Xadrian]

starting a 2nd run at bac

takeover;1628682 wrote: it's curious - i seem to feel a bit of relaxation in the muscles, which seems to translate into a heightened/improved mood.

The improved mood is a common side effect.

If you cannot deal with it, you can ask your doctor to prescribe you something to drop your mood again :H

[takeover]

starting a 2nd run at bac

Mood is still improved.. it's weird, it seems almost manic.
I've been working a lot - overtime as such - but despite getting 3.5-5.5 hours of sleep a night, and being exhausted in the morn, once i'm up and about i'm not tired at night.
the physical compulsion seems to be gone. i had an abs day yesterday, a bit by accident-
but the emotional compulsion is still strong. like the stuff i dont want to deal with, the pain.

i get burpy, and feel a bit nauseous when in a car - sometimes i nod off cant tell if it's lack of sleep, and or the bac.

anyone else have these reactions?

[Jazi's Mum]

starting a 2nd run at bac

Hi takeover - yes your side effects are typical. The manic feeling is quite strange and I still catch myself talking and talking - my sister notices this when we talk on the phone - she says I sound 'high' but what the heck it feels ok to me. This passes off once you get used to a certain dose. Not going up too fast is the key here.

As for the nodding off - this is very strange to me. If I sit down to read my Kindle I find myself nodding off but as soon as I get up and move around I feel energized again.

All in all I would say that the side effects for me have been easy to handle. Of course I have not had to go about 80mg/day to achieve indifference.

Keep up the good work!! And thanks for posting!

[freedom4me]

starting a 2nd run at bac

Quote: "freedom4me - that guide is quite pricey on amazon ($51+) although more manageable on lulu ($16), but there is no electronic format (am i missing something?) since it's going to take a while to order it - can you share what it says about combination with celexa? Also, does it say how to cope with nausea?"

Please forgive me for not responding sooner. I did not see your question directed to me. The electronic version from the link on the website is downloadable only to an apple product (iphone, ipad, mac). The book does not say anything specifically about SSRI's in the drug interaction section. It does state that most drugs do not interact negatively with Baclofen since it has been around for so long and used by numerous patients with neuromuscular disorders (that are most likely have a diagnosis of depression as well and many are on SSRI's).

Regarding nausea, it states it is not uncommon to have nausea and that once stable at a dose, it subsides. My note on alleviating nausea is to get some peppermint essential oil and using you fingers, dab some behind each ear (sounds weird, but works). Also peppermint hot tea assists the digestive system and helps to alleviate nausea. In addition, if the nausea may be caused by acid reflux, you can also add aloe vera juice (1oz twice a day, and 1-2oz as needed) and this will fix the reflux issue and over a period of time of continued use it will heal the digestive system. The aloe juice works right away when experiencing acute acid reflux.

I hope this helps.

[takeover]

starting a 2nd run at bac

day 25 - 100mg

thanks jazi and freedom for your thoughts.

i'm at day 25. have had a couple of abs days. wanted to post on physical and emotional notes since the start-

at around 130mg, i started to get very nauseous, it was very difficult to ride in a car (esp. with erratic drivers.) i was experiencing extreme somnolesence. this was made worse by the fact that paradoxically, bac was making it hard to sleep at night, and making me tired in the day. a side theory: if it operates on the GABA system, the reason it could have sleepy effects is it is relaxing you, and the reason you wake up at 4 am (as i started to do) is when the bac wears off and the GABA system reenergizes - much like alcohol. any thoughts?

these sound like negatives but there were positives too. namely, once i was up,, i felt energized, and the bac led to a calmer, relaxed me, feeling at peace. because of this, i was able to examine some emotional issues that alcohol was covering up.

the combination of lack of sleep, and facing emotional issues that i'd deadened - plus the very odd effect of it making you super talkative - (which led to me saying to ppl at work what i thought - and the fights that it caused! :O) led to a mini breakdown on day 15 in the middle of the night where i concluded i couldn't live like i was, emotionally, any more, and that i was quite exhausted with this lifestyle.

130mg felt like a mini-"switch". it didn't terminate this compulsion to alcohol, but it made me take a more mindful approach to it - a decision to confront emotional aspects - and a realization that it (alc) was no longer "doing" it for me emotionally, but rather, it was a holdover from the past, and there are better, more productive ways of doing what i was doing with it. i've slowly started drinking less, with occasional spikes.

i had a few day experience with celexa. it did the same thing - chemical castration- and made me even more nauseous, and i quickly terminated.

much to my surprise, my GP actually read (skimmed) through the 7 studies and bac prescribing guide i printed for him! he thanked me for the education, stated he never realized there was this use for baclofen, then informed me that the clinic guidelines prohibited him from prescribing anything off-label, much as he would like to. so he can prescribe me SSRIs with all their detrimental effects but not anything off the label - thus the success of the SSRIs. he was esp. impressed that these were not obscure journals, but rather one from the NIH at that.

will continue to update. the somnolesence makes me realize it would have been VERY DANGEROUS to drive on the titrate up. i find myself falling asleep and catching myself mid-fall on the metro; i shudder to think what could have happened on the freeway!

odd.. how can i put this? bac may not be terminating the "urge" but rather helping me see behind the veil of the urge. not quite as sexy as "indifference" but rather the ability to be "above" the indifference and understand where it's coming from.. once the physical and withdrawal effects are lessened/eliminated.. i can understand what's making my mind "crave."

more updates on the journey later on. day 25, at 100mg (scaled down from 100mg to deal with side effects), signing off-

[Colin]

starting a 2nd run at bac

takeover;1635711 wrote: a side theory: if it operates on the GABA system, the reason it could have sleepy effects is it is relaxing you, and the reason you wake up at 4 am (as i started to do) is when the bac wears off and the GABA system reenergizes - much like alcohol. any thoughts?

I and a few others have found that the insomnia is helped by taking some of the next morning's baclofen dose on waking during the night.

This might help you and might agree with your theory.

[takeover]

starting a 2nd run at bac

Thanks Colin-
That is actually what I started to do-

[Yourfriend6116]

starting a 2nd run at bac

I like the way you put that-see beyond the veil of the urge. I kept looking for indifference, but it's like now I just know better. I'm not indifferent. I still want to escape from life(aka get drunk). I just think it through now with my new thinking patterns and take it for what it is-the urge to escape my current situation.
Like so many have said-"think/drink like a normal drinker". Normal drinkers realize drinking 2bottles (or even 3 glasses) of wine on a Tuesday when you have to work isn't a good idea. Drinkers like me just didn't give a fu$& about plans or good ideas. I do now, my mind is changing thanks to Bac.
I remember my insomnia and afternoon tiredness really ramped up above 150. Keep posting. Thanks for sharing.

[skullbabyland]

starting a 2nd run at bac

Yourfriend6116;1636413 wrote: I like the way you put that-see beyond the veil of the urge. I kept looking for indifference, but it's like now I just know better. I'm not indifferent. I still want to escape from life(aka get drunk). I just think it through now with my new thinking patterns and take it for what it is-the urge to escape my current situation.
Like so many have said-"think/drink like a normal drinker". Normal drinkers realize drinking 2bottles (or even 3 glasses) of wine on a Tuesday when you have to work isn't a good idea. Drinkers like me just didn't give a fu$& about plans or good ideas. I do now, my mind is changing thanks to Bac.
I remember my insomnia and afternoon tiredness really ramped up above 150. Keep posting. Thanks for sharing.

I really relate to this post, YourFriend. Yep this is how I see things too.

[neophyte]

starting a 2nd run at bac

sounds like you are close, if you suspect your cravings changing. as to somnolesence and insomnia. I tried heaps of different approaches including supplements and benzos. the only thing i found that helped was exersize and even then it didn't help much. over time when you are steady on a dose it does start to go away. though ive been on the same dose for 3 months and it's still improving, i usually wake up at 4am but often can sleep through the night now or only wake once.

compare that to when i was going up in dose on bac, i would probably sleep 3 hours a night with constant tossing and turning. i would also nod off at my desk at work constantly and could barely work. luckily my job is pretty relaxed.

[emc]

starting a 2nd run at bac

hi takeover,
really good that you have this feeling of "mini-switch" at 130mg.
From my experience i can tell you that the so-called switch does not work the same way to everyone.
There are people in which is really like an ON/OFF and in others, as me, that is much more soft.
Habit plays a big role and who knows what else.
I continued to drink a bit (average 1 beer a day) after what i consider my switch dose (165 then went up to 180 but was too hard).
I'm was feeling that something was changed in my relation with alcohol, and right now things continue to improve! (average from 2014/01/01 - 6gr alc a day, read... a sip).

About nights, you can read my post in Lewis thread, i would repeat same thing to u too...
The Colin advice worked well even for me but now i quite don't have the need to do it anymore.
I was mainly doing when in higher dose to cut away some mg from the daily doses...

About GP and info about BAC, yes it's real disaster!
My doc started to use bac thanks to me (first one!) and now is using it with success with other people too!
The mainstream information ignore that BAC exists, imo opinion are just really afraid of it, to lose the clients in their rehab centers... it's a long history but i'm sure it will end in favor to BAC and to alcoholics!
At next ;-)