Baclofen and sleep

[emc]

Hi everybody,
i decide to open this thread to discuss about how Baclofen influences or not the sleep architecture (latency, quality, duration etc).

As we all know is still not fully understood how this molecule works and, as obviously, even sleep plays a crucial role for an equilibrate physical/psicological state.
I've found few docs about the subject (links here in the end) but i would like to know even something abour your sleep and the relation with your hour/dosage or anything else related.

I have alterated sleep from quite the beginning of the treatment (before, in the abstinent periods i always had a regular good sleep).
Now is stabilize on wake up always, every night, after 3-4 hours after falling asleep (at higher dosage was even 3-4 time per night).
Sometimes i have the impression that the body and mind are not fully rested/restored, and the "heavy head" it can be the result/sign.
I remember well the old morning good sensation after a deep sleep night...
I take my last dose at 8PM - 10mg and i go to bed quite always around 11PM/00. Stand up around 8,30-9.
I even notice that, when i was on higher dose (180mg) i was using this little "trick" to put alarm early (around 6AM) take 10/20mg and back to sleep (i recently read here someone else doing it). It seems that was good but after did not try quite anymore...
On the opposite side, taking last dose just before going to sleep was prolonging really a lot the the time to fall asleep.
The sleeping aids i think that they don't resolve nothing so i dont take them (try just Hydroxyzine/Atarax one time and i was not well at all).

As i saw even others (here and in other forums) having some kind of alterations of sleep while on therapy so it would be good if we share our experiences/informations about it and the "eventual" relations with posology.

Here some doc on subject that i just found (and read):
- Differential effects of sodium oxybate and baclofen on EEG, sleep, neurobehavioral performance, and memory.
- New pathways and data on rapid eye movement sleep behaviour disorder in a rat model.
- A review of sodium oxybate and baclofen in the treatment of sleep disorders.
- The effects of the GABA agonist, baclofen, on sleep and breathing. -> full PDF dowload here
- Sleep is differently modulated by basal forebrain GABA(A) and GABA(B) receptors.
- Effect of baclofen on sleep-related periodic leg movements.
- some general infos about sleep
- need some good link for sleep phases... i will add it here if someone suggest me...

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Baclofen and sleep

Great thread.

Man, I completely believe that good sleep is one of the biggest keys to a good quality of life. And I am not sure I know what good sleep is or feels like!

I thought I slept well when I was drinking because I "slept all night". We all know how delusional that is! Booze definitely disrupts sleep cycles.

Then when I was titrating up I experienced real insomnia for the first time. Probably baclofen coupled with the fact that I was drinking less and my anxiety was at an all-time-record-high. (Anxiety about taking a medication off-label without a prescription or oversight. And definitely lots of anxiety about giving up booze! :H)

Then, for a short while, I only needed 4-6 hours of sleep. I still don't know if I was hypomanic or if I was just so happy to be sober that even my cells were rejoicing.

Then sleeping 4-6 hours a night clearly stopped being enough. I started to try really hard to regulate my sleep, but it was clear that I wasn't getting good sleep. For the last couple of years, at least, I wake up at 4 am (or earlier) ready to start the day only to feel terrible by noon. What I thought was baclofen-induced-somnolence was really sheer exhaustion from lack of sleep. I have never taken sleep aids on a regular basis because of all the negative side effects, including and especially tolerance. They don't seem like a good long-term approach.

I don't have any solid answers, yet. My doctor suggested an SSRI and trazadone (I think? Or tramadol? Something that sounds like that.) I'm resisting that for right now. I started on mirtazapine about a month ago, and that seemed to help a lot. Then my grandmother was dying, and then she died. Sleep eludes me again.

There is one thing that I feel certain about in my case: It's chemical. There isn't much I haven't tried in order to combat it in terms of lifestyle changes. It's not screen-time, and changes in exercise or nutrition haven't benefited me for this specific issue.

I know all of that was too long. Sorry. Short version: Mirtazapine seems to work without being a sedative or building tolerance but it's too soon to tell.

[emc]

Baclofen and sleep

Hey Ne,
agree with you that AL just apparently gives us a satisfational sleep... it just disrupt all and obviously about importance of sleep.
Then... had the same "excitement" and slept not so long in some period of titratin up probably for the same reasons as you or probably "chemical" even this.
Never full insomniac (but i know a lot of cases).
And this 4AM, another common point.
Something happens at 4AM? on the chemical side (serotonin? dopamine? i read somewhere smth about ?rebound? but get lost in the middle of all explications)
Sure cycles alternations of NREM, REM... i think its here the point to investigate deeply... that turns in 3-4 hrs after sleep than 4AM (see 4Am going to sleep around midnight).
I suspect that i don't arrive to go into this deep NREM - SWS (short waves sleep) if i understood well.
From this docs it seems that BAC helps the deep sleep, but we're without bac all night. And then in the first doc they talk about a "delayed action" of BAC but i did not fully understood.
It's chemical yes, as you said. Undoubtely even for me.
Would prefer not to take any AD, just would like to understand first!!! ;-) and maybe all together we find how to "hack it"...
At what time do you go to bed?
How is your actual posology?

PS: condoleance for your lost, Ne. I'm sorry. I saw it but was bit "timid" to post in your thread... :-(

[Jazi's Mum]

Baclofen and sleep

I can't remember a night where I've slept well it's been so long. But I have depression which wakes me up at midnight, and again at 4am - this is common in depression. I agree it's all chemical as the brain actuality changes with depression, and things like ADD which I have.

I also have lots of pain from sciatica which keeps me awake from 4am onwards. As for the baclofen - the first little while I slept like a baby and I was thrilled!!!

Now at 80 mg my sleep pattern has gone back to the not so good. When I went up from 60 to 80 sleep became difficult again.

The difference baclofen makes is profound: even though I wake up, and have lots of pain, I'm able to stay in bed and doze through it. Not exactly good sleep but at least I'm dopy enough on the bac that I feel relaxed - if that makes any sense.

I've hung blackout curtains in the bedroom, and we turn our clocks around so we don't see the light etc. This makes a huge difference. I go to bed very early - usually 9-9:30 and try to stay in bed until 7am. Don't always make that as the pain drives me up a lot.

I hope some others post on this - good topic.

[emc]

Baclofen and sleep

hi Jazi's Mum and thanks for your contribution!

It will be good if everyone post even the posology... all day dosage/hour or at least hour of last pill of baclo and quantity, as well as sleep/awake habitudes and regularity or not.
Eventually other things that can interfer sleep w as AD, other substances, coffee or too much chocolate at bed time! ;-)
Just to try understand better and isolate the Baclofen side as much as posssible.
Thanks everybody.

[Samandkatharine]

Baclofen and sleep

What my pattern has been since day one (drinking)

1. Sleep fine in my 20's - not drinking daily
2. Had kids and was drinking nightly except for pregnancies. I'd wake up at 2am and swig a glass of wine to doze back off.
3. 40's..started to go through early meno and sleep was aweful. Started with Ambien...
4. Now in my early 50's, on baclofen, about 90-95% sober but I HACK my sleep big time. I take my last dose of Bac by 8pm, put on blue light canceling glasses and either take a mag chloride bath or foot soak. I then soak my feet in magnesium oil, put on socks, sleep mask and ear plugs. If I need to I'll take 2mg benzo or melatonin. I will sleep until 2-3am, which I will then pee and take 10mg baclofen and sleep soundly till 6am.

It's a LOT of work, but my sleep is precious. Yeah, bash me on the benzo, but my doctor ok'd it and I my body still fights sleep. Valerian makes me feel like crap. I use the transdermal melatonin and it works great. And for the record, us AL's are notoriously deprived of minerals, and magnesium chloride transdermal lay is the only way our bodies will assimilate it. Try it.

Sam

[neophyte]

Baclofen and sleep

Samandkatharine;1630770 wrote: What my pattern has been since day one (drinking)

1. Sleep fine in my 20's - not drinking daily
2. Had kids and was drinking nightly except for pregnancies. I'd wake up at 2am and swig a glass of wine to doze back off.
3. 40's..started to go through early meno and sleep was aweful. Started with Ambien...
4. Now in my early 50's, on baclofen, about 90-95% sober but I HACK my sleep big time. I take my last dose of Bac by 8pm, put on blue light canceling glasses and either take a mag chloride bath or foot soak. I then soak my feet in magnesium oil, put on socks, sleep mask and ear plugs. If I need to I'll take 2mg benzo or melatonin. I will sleep until 2-3am, which I will then pee and take 10mg baclofen and sleep soundly till 6am.

It's a LOT of work, but my sleep is precious. Yeah, bash me on the benzo, but my doctor ok'd it and I my body still fights sleep. Valerian makes me feel like crap. I use the transdermal melatonin and it works great. And for the record, us AL's are notoriously deprived of minerals, and magnesium chloride transdermal lay is the only way our bodies will assimilate it. Try it.

Sam

I agree on the magnesium, i take mine orally in the form of magnesium l-aspartate. do you think that this does not absorb? do you have any articles on why that would be? I take melatonin also.

i found going up in baclofen, sleep was really rough and still can be. i woke up at 4am this mroning, i prefer to wake up around 6:45.

just be careful on the benzos, i had a habit previously and it was hell to come off, ive been addicted to alcohol, opiates and benzos. benzos by far are the most drawn out horrible things to come off, they completely remove your ability to cope and your quality of life goes to shit. as to your doctor, sometimes they prescribe them innapropriately.

based on what you say about waking up again at 2am, that was exactly how the insomina was for me going up in baclofen. i would do anything for a good night sleep, at one stage i tried this before bed - run during the day, hydroxyzine, valium 5mg, magnesium, melatonin and valerian root. Even with that mixture, i would fall asleep quickly but wake up constantly.

[spiritwolf333]

Baclofen and sleep

Nice thread EMC -thanks for the wakening.

We all know that sleep is critical to our well being. How much? Will always be debated because it differs amongst us all -or at least I think that it does.

Sleeping was always a problem during the alcoholic drinking times (and really, even prior to that time) so it really is hard for me to gauge my actual current sleep as compared to any other sleep patterns. One thing that I know for sure for me is that sleeping without alcohol in my system is a hundred fold better than when I was drinking.

Current sleeping pattern: I sleep about four to five hours per night (12pm to 4-5am). My dreams continue to be very lucid and eventful. The really strange part about this sleep cycle that I am on now is that I feel fully rested and ready to go after about an hour after awakening. This current sleep cycle has been going on for about three months and I am just going with it -not fighting it anymore. The times that I have gone back to sleep after 4am are not healthy for my mind.

Side Note: Many times I find that my dreams are extremely intense and motivational in some way. A combination of baclofen and not drinking must have a huge impact on my dreams?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Baclofen and sleep

emc;1630701 wrote:
Would prefer not to take any AD, just would like to understand first!!! ;-) and maybe all together we find how to "hack it"...
At what time do you go to bed?
How is your actual posology?

PS: condoleance for your lost, Ne. I'm sorry. I saw it but was bit "timid" to post in your thread... :-(

I didn't want to take an AD, either. I totally understand that. I'm glad I did, but it had a lot to do with strengthening my arsenal because of my grandmother's illness and demise. I really didn't want to fall apart, so I finally went to the doctor for a prescription. I have a cousin who takes the same thing, smallest dose, and it has helped her immensely. I talked to someone I trust on here, too, about which meds to explore. I am still very wary of everything in pill form. Which is pretty funny, don't you think?

I try to go to bed at 9pm. If I do, then it's enough sleep when I wake up ~4am. Generally, I'm in bed at 10:30pm.
I fall asleep immediately, I just don't stay asleep! And my sleep is restless. I'm fairly certain I don't have sleep apnea, but I haven't had a sleep test. (So annoying to think about doing that! Who has time?! But it's my next step.

I'm not sure what posology means. I take 140mg of bac, even doses 3x/day.

EDIT: Thank you so much, emc. It doesn't matter where it's posted! The condolences are much appreciated.

[kronkcarr]

Baclofen and sleep

I always slept well when I drank but I didn't feel refreshed when I woke. When I was on 30-50 mgs my sleep was horrible. In the beginning I had euphoria so I didn't mind being up late and up early. My titration was slow due to my dr. After a few months I hated not sleeping well.

I'm on a maintenance dose of 60-70 mgs--30-40 mgs in the AM and 30-40 by 8:30 in PM. I go to bed between 10-11 and am up at 5:15 (damn the high school hours). If I stay up until 11 five nights in a row I'm really tired.

As mentioned previously, enough deep sleep is a must for the regeneration of our bodies. I'm told there are studies linking lack of sleep to weight gain. I know some folks who are using the Jaw Bone to see how they're sleeping. It's very interesting to me.

[Samandkatharine]

Baclofen and sleep

neophyte;1630802 wrote: I agree on the magnesium, i take mine orally in the form of magnesium l-aspartate. do you think that this does not absorb? do you have any articles on why that would be? I take melatonin also.

i found going up in baclofen, sleep was really rough and still can be. i woke up at 4am this mroning, i prefer to wake up around 6:45.

just be careful on the benzos, i had a habit previously and it was hell to come off, ive been addicted to alcohol, opiates and benzos. benzos by far are the most drawn out horrible things to come off, they completely remove your ability to cope and your quality of life goes to shit. as to your doctor, sometimes they prescribe them innapropriately.

based on what you say about waking up again at 2am, that was exactly how the insomina was for me going up in baclofen. i would do anything for a good night sleep, at one stage i tried this before bed - run during the day, hydroxyzine, valium 5mg, magnesium, melatonin and valerian root. Even with that mixture, i would fall asleep quickly but wake up constantly.

Amazon has a book by Dr. Sircus (lol!) about transdermal magnesium therapy. They also sell products such as flakes and oil. I take magnesium glycinate but find the transdermal route to be superior.

Yea,the benzo is something I'd rather let go of. It's only at night, if that's an excuse. I'd gladly take something "legal" but nothing works. Antihistamines do the opposite, leave me awake and agitated. 2mg of diazepam is it. If I wake up, I take my 1st dose of Bac and get back to beddy bye.

Sam

[emc]

Baclofen and sleep

Thanks to everybody for this first contribution!
Just would like to underline that, as i already said somewhere, would be really important to see the relation between Baclofen dose, hours and sleep.
It helps? It disturbs? How, why. We can maybe modify our dosage for a better sleeping?
This it's the sense of this thread as i had it in mind.

This few medical studies they don't arrive to any definitive conclusion... seems that it helps in some way but with some contradictory point (as i understood it).
I'm even trying to make arrive the question to Dr. R. de Beaurepaire to ask him if by hazard he made some sleep analysis to his patients of the study.
Would be really interesting! Let's hope. I 'll let you know.

As i consider everybody on Baclofen as a part of a big "Observational Study" i think that we can maybe even contribute to a better understanding of some unknown or not so deep investigated sides of this precious molecule.

So, Baclofen dosage w details + sleep habits + eventual tips + eventual notes.
Maybe would be good to setup a small form to fill... hmm yes i will do it.

In the meantime here mine, again:
- total 70mg/day
- dosage in my signature
- in bed usually around 10,30/11,30PM, wake up after 3-4 hours then fall asleep again (sometimes easily, sometimes not) then stand up usually at 8AM or 9AM.
- i notice that 3mg of melatonin 1 hour before bed was going to help me in the way of making me fall asleep again faster after the woke up in the middle of the night.
- notes: i notice that sometimes taking Baclofen too near bed time it was keeping me up and not making me fall asleep, but on the opposite (contradictory) side, if i take some dose in the middle of the night after i have a good feeling of having slept better. I will "experiment" little more but don't like to "play" with dosage, I'm convinced (afraid) it may disturb the effectiveness...

Thanks.

PS: i had the spell check deactivated... now is on so maybe you will see little less mistakes... ;-)

[Xadrian]

Baclofen and sleep

emc;1631113 wrote: I will "experiment" little more but don't like to "play" with dosage, I'm convinced (afraid) it may disturb the effectiveness...

In my experience and in a lot of others' too, how you divide the doses during the day is not that important for the main goal. The noticeable effects of in- or decrease on the main goal will take a day or 4, so it appears to be "stored" somewhere.
Important is thatyou get your daily dose.

On the other hand, the way how you divide your doses can have a big difference for the SE's. If for example you cannot get to sleep, you could lower your evening dose and up your day dose.

In my case, I experience some somnolence at around 2 PM, so I keep my afternoon dose low. My doses are currently 30-20-40

Because I do not sleep too well lately and I always used to sleep good while on baclofen, starting today I will change to 20-20-50

[libmit]

Baclofen and sleep

I am a very infrequent poster - can't seem to ever get the words acceptable to me to post. Anyway, I'm currently on 140mg bac. I take 110 around 8am, and another 30mg anywhere from 3-8pm. I try to take it around 4, but it doesn't always work out that way.

I have issues around 4PM. If I am at home, I cannot stay awake, and I sleep for up to 2 hours in a very deep sleep (things going on around me don't wake me up easily). I wake up very disoriented around 6 to fix dinner. Then I'm ready to go back to bed around 9-10. I go to sleep easily, but I wake up frequently. I have leg/back pain and that might be what wakes me up. Luckily I can go back to sleep quickly 95% of the time. When I can't go back to sleep I'm usually obsessing over something, or my bac related sinus issues are keeping me awake. I wake up usually around 6-7 feeling rested. Back when I was drinking a lot, I used to stay up late and sleep in late.

I have noticed that the later I take the 30mg bac, the worse my sleep is. The sinus issues are worse at night the more and later I take bac.

I've been taking bac on and off for 3 years, most successfully right now. Have a glass or four of wine on the weekends and mostly nothing during the week.

PS: My condolences on your grandmother passing Ne. Hard times.

[bleep]

Baclofen and sleep

Xadrian hit the nail on the head IMO. Unless you are new to baclofen, when you take what dose is irrelevant. If you are titrating up, it can make a huge difference to SE's though.

I sleep ok, I guess. I have just got over the stage (again) of needing 4 to 5 hours sleep a night, and miss it. So now I go to sleep at 11ish, and wake up at 6ish, normally with an hour awake somewhere in the middle, which I use to read, or work, or just do whatever. Baclofen definitely screws with your sleep. I found the easiest way to cope with it is to accept it, and try and do something productive with the extra time you are given. Moaning about it won't help, and will just make you resent being awake, which seems unavoidable at various times while on baclofen.

EDIT: Hi emc - I realise that is not a very helpful answer - sorry! I haven't tried taking anything for it, so don't know if you can get around it that way, From what I've read over the past few years here, very little seems to work though, which is why I just ignored that route.