Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

[spiritwolf333]

We have all heard that if quitting alcohol were easy, we would get drunk every night. Stopping the use of a substance that we are physically and or mentally addicted to is not easy. In fact, it can be quite a fearful prospect for a true alcohol or other addict. And I further suggest this; any true alcoholic (at first) only wants to reduce consumption, not quit -the dream.

It is only my opinion but I stand by it and it is this; baclofen is a very difficult medication to take -especially In high doses. With no alcohol involved at all, it can offer extreme challenges. It is plain and simply a very difficult drug to take for the elimination of alcohol. But it can and does work -but is only one tool in the "toolbox". Perseverance and pain from alcohol abuse are prerequisites for most people (real alcoholics) to quit drinking.

Finally, again, this is only an opinion, but to keep drinking while taking baclofen while trying to quit alcohol is absurd. Sure, there have been a few folks on here that have some type of success doing do, but for the majority, it just does not work. You are taking a medication that reverses the brain damage caused by abusive drinking. How can Baclofen do it's job if you continue to drink? When you have any other type of injury, can it really heal until you stop the behavior that was causing it in the first place?

This post is for the newcomer. Only expect the baclofen miracle if you stop drinking. Sure, there may/will come a day when you can actually choose to drink one or two and then quit. If you are an alcoholic, it will probably suck just drinking a few because you are not drinking for taste, you are drinking to change the way you think or feel -and you want it to last.

If we are to do justice to Baclofen and Dr. Ameisen on this site, then I would suggest we promote total abstinence for a long period of time.

Just a Thought

[hopefulinOz]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Thanks, that's interesting to me. When I started on the bac I was expecting it to be a magic bullet, that I just wouldn't WANT to drink anymore. And as I still have wanted to, I haven't really fought it. I really need to aim to get a few days under my belt.

[Samandkatharine]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

I think everyone should have the right to choose their level of sobriety. Sure, abstinence is ideal. I think all baclofen users should have a few weeks/ months sober time before drinking again....if they want to. I think the story of Otters wife is so poignant in that she chose not to drink and has been sober for years. Others on the boards drink now and then but not alcoholically, and that's fine too. As long as you are happy, healthy and have the same in relationships and family life then you are home free.

Spirit, it's not all or nothing. I don't think O.A was in a position to drink again. He put his body through so much before he found Bac. His was truly a devastating story. I do think those who take Bac and don't drink will find alcohol distasteful in the long run, and that's the miracle we all want!

Sam

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Wow, Spirit. This is ridiculous. And dangerous.

Wow, Spirit. You know I like you. That doesn't mean you can post stuff that's just plain malarkey. Please don't assume that this is an attack or that it is personal. You are basing your assumptions on your experience alone, not the experience of the vast majority of people here. Or on the research. Plus, even based on your own experience, this stuff isn't accurate.

Because this is long, I'll sum up:
Baclofen works regardless of whether or not you maintain absolute abstinence.
The vast majority of us on MWO do not maintain abstinence while titrating up or after reaching indifference.
Dr. Ameisen himself did not think that abstinence was the primary goal. It's in his book. He also did not think, nor is it accurate, that alcohol is the disease.

I am not promoting drinking. Every time Spirit posts this stuff, it puts me (and others) in the awkward position of defending drinking alcohol. Which is not at all the point of this entire experience. If you are new, and you think that you can continue to drink alcoholically, or change nothing in your life and still maintain freedom from the slavery of addiction, you are sadly mistaken. It doesn't work like that. No pill works like that. Change necessitates change.

Spirit, why do you keep posting the same stuff when people make clear that it is not their experience? Hell, it isn't even your experience.
https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ion-90479.html

spiritwolf333;1662765 wrote: Perseverance and pain from alcohol abuse are prerequisites for most people (real alcoholics) to quit drinking.
I thought this for a long time, too. It's one of the tenets of AA, so most of us who have been through that program believe this. It isn't true.

spiritwolf333;1662765 wrote: Finally, again, this is only an opinion, but to keep drinking while taking baclofen while trying to quit alcohol is absurd.
Actually, it is the only thing that makes sense. Any program that insists on absolute abstinence as a measure of success dooms alcoholics to failure. We KNOW this. It is irrefutable.

spiritwolf333;1662765 wrote: Sure, there have been a few folks on here that have some type of success doing do, but for the majority, it just does not work.
The very vast majority of us drink occasionally. Your experience is the exception, not the rule.

spiritwolf333;1662765 wrote: You are taking a medication that reverses the brain damage caused by abusive drinking.

That is very unlikely. Where on earth did you find that information?

spiritwolf333;1662765 wrote: How can Baclofen do it's job if you continue to drink?

Exactly. Why does it work even though we continue to drink? That is a very important question, because we know it's true. It works even though we continue to drink. Why don't you try to research and answer that question? It would keep you from being so confused.

spiritwolf333;1662765 wrote: When you have any other type of injury, can it really heal until you stop the behavior that was causing it in the first place?

Alcohol is, in some ways, not the injury. The injury is under the alcohol. This is the very basis of Ameisen's theory! Stop believing the stuff your mind makes up and start reading about what addiction actually IS.

spiritwolf333;1662765 wrote: This post is for the newcomer.

Why? Don't you think it's dangerous, or at least cruel, that you suggest that the only way to success is from abstinence? That is reason enough to stop you from this bull. If someone had been spewing this stuff around here when I first got here, I wouldn't be sober today. Neither would my husband. Or the majority of my friends and acquaintances here. Why is your experience more valid than ours?

spiritwolf333;1662765 wrote: Only expect the baclofen miracle if you stop drinking.
Complete and utter bull shit. The most dangerous and incorrect assumption you have posted here. Absolutely not true. How dare you, Spirit? Why on earth would you post something like this when you know, or should know, that most of us drink when we're taking baclofen? Even the research study being conducted in Australia doesn't use this as a guideline for success. It sets people up to fail. Plus, it's just...wrong.

spiritwolf333;1662765 wrote: Sure, there may/will come a day when you can actually choose to drink one or two and then quit. If you are an alcoholic, it will probably suck just drinking a few because you are not drinking for taste, you are drinking to change the way you think or feel -and you want it to last.
Oh my. I get that you don't actually incorporate the stuff I've posted, or the research that is available. But this statement is also malarkey.

spiritwolf333;1662765 wrote:

If we are to do justice to Baclofen and Dr. Ameisen on this site, then I would suggest we promote total abstinence for a long period of time.

Based on what exactly? If you'd read the book, you would know that Dr. Ameisen himself did not promote abstinence. Just the opposite in fact. He treated a guy whose sole goal was to continue drinking with some control. And that was one of the first people he helped!

spiritwolf333;1662765 wrote:

Just a Thought

Not a well thought out one.

Did you have to take much less baclofen because you were sober? You're at 200 mg now! Almost a year later.

Did you not experience side effects because you were sober?

What makes your experience more valid? Just because you're abstinent? Are you sure? I only know of one person who was totally (and presumably still is) completely abstinent, successfully and happily. Everyone else I can think of relapsed, hard. Can you name 3 or 4 people who are completely, happily abstinent and in long term abstinence? Actually, I can think of a couple that aren't active here, but they take antabuse. Which can be a dangerous and health-threatening medication. This use of antabuse is counter to the recommendations of physicians and all the bodies that govern or research addiction. (And for those of you that are taking it, I am not suggesting you stop taking it or that you start drinking. I am suggesting it's not a good idea for people who don't need it to plan on taking it for a long period of time.)

Geez, Spirit. What gives?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

hopefulinOz;1662823 wrote: Thanks, that's interesting to me. When I started on the bac I was expecting it to be a magic bullet, that I just wouldn't WANT to drink anymore. And as I still have wanted to, I haven't really fought it. I really need to aim to get a few days under my belt.

Hopeful, you've been taking baclofen for less than a month. It takes TIME. I don't think you can expect it to be a magic bullet in that it will fix all things related to your disease. But for many of us, we just don't want to drink anymore. That is exactly how it works.

And the very vast majority of us drank while we were taking it, until we didn't want to drink anymore.

[hopefulinOz]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

That's what I'm clinging to.
I didn't even really WANT to drink tonight but the kids drove me so nuts I didn't know how else to calm down.

[neophyte]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

hopefulinOz;1662912 wrote: That's what I'm clinging to.
I didn't even really WANT to drink tonight but the kids drove me so nuts I didn't know how else to calm down.

hopeful, i tried forced abstinence before my switch for 30 days after a month, on day 32 i ended up drinking again and it was patchy with days on and off drinking heavily until i reached my switch at 300mg. this took nearly 4 months to reach. at 30 days i was really frustrated too. as to why you drank, those were excuses i used to justify my cravings. perhaps you are justifying your cravings with your kids driving you nuts. there is ALWAYS a reason to drink

to quote Bukowski
“That's the problem with drinking, I thought, as I poured myself a drink. If something bad happens you drink in an attempt to forget; if something good happens you drink in order to celebrate; and if nothing happens you drink to make something happen.”

but i agree with Neva, you dont need forced abstinence. my partner bought a bottle of wine tonight, i had a glass and didnt care for more. same scenario one year ago, id be straight back to the bottle shop to get another 2 bottles, if i didnt get the required amount of alcohol each day, im going to be angry and craving

[YouKayBee]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

hopefulinOz;1662912 wrote: That's what I'm clinging to.
I didn't even really WANT to drink tonight but the kids drove me so nuts I didn't know how else to calm down.

This is something that comes with lowered intake or abstenance. Learning to deal with life without relying on alcohol takes time.

[skullbabyland]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

hopefulinOz;1662912 wrote: That's what I'm clinging to.
I didn't even really WANT to drink tonight but the kids drove me so nuts I didn't know how else to calm down.

This is an important aspect of learning to live without drinking alcoholically. It can be tricky because most of us really do need to find other ways to relax once we're not using alcohol to do so. On the other hand, as Neo says, often we use triggers to excuse our brain craving alcohol. Almost anything can become a trigger or an excuse. But triggers and excuses are two distinct different things, I suppose.

Either way, dealing with them does take time, as does finding healthy ways to calm down and relax.

[Samandkatharine]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

hopefulinOz;1662912 wrote: That's what I'm clinging to.
I didn't even really WANT to drink tonight but the kids drove me so nuts I didn't know how else to calm down.

That was my modus operandi for 19 years... The last year being the hardest. Can you leave the kids with someone and go to Starbucks?

Sam

[spiritwolf333]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

hopefulinOz;1662823 wrote: Thanks, that's interesting to me. When I started on the bac I was expecting it to be a magic bullet, that I just wouldn't WANT to drink anymore. And as I still have wanted to, I haven't really fought it. I really need to aim to get a few days under my belt.

Hi Hope -Same for me. I was hoping after a few weeks of baclofen, I would not want -to want to drink. The pain from alcoholism had driven my desperation to quit out the roof. In the back of my mind, I was somehow hoping/thinking that I did not want to quit alcohol forever. It was the one drug I could rely to calm me down -quickly.

At a certain point in one's alcohol career, the most fearful thought that an alcoholic can have is thinking that he or she can never drink again. The great news is that after just a short time of abstinence, the alcoholic realizes that they don't have to have alcohol to survive -to live.

Most humans use alcohol to change the way they think or feel. For an alcoholic, or one dependent on alcohol, alcohol becomes a must have item in the system. It is my opinion that baclofen (and a few other drugs) work to re-wire the brain's transmission system. Once re-wired, the brain no longer considers alcohol a needed or wanted chemical.

For me, I look at drinking while taking baclofen the same as trying to drive a car with water: How/why?

(1) A car (most) will not run on a tank full of water. An alcoholic can not function when drunk all the time.

(2) A car can partially run when some water is mixed in with the gas. However, when the gas eventually separates from the water and the engine is trying to run on water, the car breaks down. An alcoholic taking baclofen can better function while still drinking. However, it is my opinion that at some point the alcohol will bypass the baclofen (will override the baclofen rewiring) and the alcohol abuser will be back to being alcohol dependent (trying once again to live with alcohol)

2.a -The car never learned or was able to operate on water and the alcoholic taking baclofen never really learns how to live without alcohol while still drinking.

[beckty]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

spiritwolf333;1662765 wrote:
If we are to do justice to Baclofen and Dr. Ameisen on this site, then I would suggest we promote total abstinence for a long period of time.

Just a Thought

But, I thought he drank all the way through so I don't understand the correlation between drinking while taking Baclofen, and not doing Dr. A justice. Maybe I am mistaken. Anyway, I have tried total abstinence. It doesn't work. I just can't do it. So, I'll continue on with drinking and trying not to overdo it (my best attempt at being AF is simply reducing the amount) and wait for the miracle. I've read enough here to know it will come.

[spiritwolf333]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Ne/Neva Eva;1662906 wrote: Wow, Spirit. You know I like you. That doesn't mean you can post stuff that's just plain malarkey. Please don't assume that this is an attack or that it is personal. You are basing your assumptions on your experience alone, not the experience of the vast majority of people here. Or on the research. Plus, even based on your own experience, this stuff isn't accurate.

Because this is long, I'll sum up:
Baclofen works regardless of whether or not you maintain absolute abstinence.
The vast majority of us on MWO do not maintain abstinence while titrating up or after reaching indifference.
Dr. Ameisen himself did not think that abstinence was the primary goal. It's in his book. He also did not think, nor is it accurate, that alcohol is the disease.

I am not promoting drinking. Every time Spirit posts this stuff, it puts me (and others) in the awkward position of defending drinking alcohol. Which is not at all the point of this entire experience. If you are new, and you think that you can continue to drink alcoholically, or change nothing in your life and still maintain freedom from the slavery of addiction, you are sadly mistaken. It doesn't work like that. No pill works like that. Change necessitates change.

Spirit, why do you keep posting the same stuff when people make clear that it is not their experience? Hell, it isn't even your experience.
https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ion-90479.html



I thought this for a long time, too. It's one of the tenets of AA, so most of us who have been through that program believe this. It isn't true.



Actually, it is the only thing that makes sense. Any program that insists on absolute abstinence as a measure of success dooms alcoholics to failure. We KNOW this. It is irrefutable.



The very vast majority of us drink occasionally. Your experience is the exception, not the rule.



That is very unlikely. Where on earth did you find that information?



Exactly. Why does it work even though we continue to drink? That is a very important question, because we know it's true. It works even though we continue to drink. Why don't you try to research and answer that question? It would keep you from being so confused.



Alcohol is, in some ways, not the injury. The injury is under the alcohol. This is the very basis of Ameisen's theory! Stop believing the stuff your mind makes up and start reading about what addiction actually IS.



Why? Don't you think it's dangerous, or at least cruel, that you suggest that the only way to success is from abstinence? That is reason enough to stop you from this bull. If someone had been spewing this stuff around here when I first got here, I wouldn't be sober today. Neither would my husband. Or the majority of my friends and acquaintances here. Why is your experience more valid than ours?



Complete and utter bull shit. The most dangerous and incorrect assumption you have posted here. Absolutely not true. How dare you, Spirit? Why on earth would you post something like this when you know, or should know, that most of us drink when we're taking baclofen? Even the research study being conducted in Australia doesn't use this as a guideline for success. It sets people up to fail. Plus, it's just...wrong.



Oh my. I get that you don't actually incorporate the stuff I've posted, or the research that is available. But this statement is also malarkey.



Based on what exactly? If you'd read the book, you would know that Dr. Ameisen himself did not promote abstinence. Just the opposite in fact. He treated a guy whose sole goal was to continue drinking with some control. And that was one of the first people he helped!



Not a well thought out one.

Did you have to take much less baclofen because you were sober? You're at 200 mg now! Almost a year later.

Did you not experience side effects because you were sober?

What makes your experience more valid? Just because you're abstinent? Are you sure? I only know of one person who was totally (and presumably still is) completely abstinent, successfully and happily. Everyone else I can think of relapsed, hard. Can you name 3 or 4 people who are completely, happily abstinent and in long term abstinence? Actually, I can think of a couple that aren't active here, but they take antabuse. Which can be a dangerous and health-threatening medication. This use of antabuse is counter to the recommendations of physicians and all the bodies that govern or research addiction. (And for those of you that are taking it, I am not suggesting you stop taking it or that you start drinking. I am suggesting it's not a good idea for people who don't need it to plan on taking it for a long period of time.)

Geez, Spirit. What gives?
Thanks for the reply NE.

When you started your Baclofen journey, did you want to rid yourself of the pain being caused by alcohol?

Why did you want to quit drinking?

Why do you like to drink occasionally now?

Why are there so few abstainers (if any) that post on MWO?

If Baclofen does not reverse the brain damage, then what does it do?

Should newcomers to this site be exposed to difficulties of taking baclofen to overcome alcoholism? Should newcomers be informed to the fact that baclofen is not a magic bullet to resolve their alcoholism?

Ne, I can think of no alcoholic that has ever said they want to stop drinking. Most just want a quick pain reduction and to keep on drinking. Why promote drinking with baclofen as an answer if we are really trying to help the dying alcoholic?

Regardless of thoughts to the contrary, this is an important topic to the newcomer looking for real help to their alcoholism. I hope you read my thread topic again. I posted a lot of "this is my opinion".

Thanks again.

[StuckinLA]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

spiritwolf333;1663029 wrote: Thanks for the reply NE.

When you started your Baclofen journey, did you want to rid yourself of the pain being caused by alcohol?

Why did you want to quit drinking?

Why do you like to drink occasionally now?

Why are there so few abstainers (if any) that post on MWO?

If Baclofen does not reverse the brain damage, then what does it do?

Should newcomers to this site be exposed to difficulties of taking baclofen to overcome alcoholism? Should newcomers be informed to the fact that baclofen is not a magic bullet to resolve their alcoholism?

Ne, I can think of no alcoholic that has ever said they want to stop drinking. Most just want a quick pain reduction and to keep on drinking. Why promote drinking with baclofen as an answer if we are really trying to help the dying alcoholic?

Regardless of thoughts to the contrary, this is an important topic to the newcomer looking for real help to their alcoholism. I hope you read my thread topic again. I posted a lot of "this is my opinion".

Thanks again.

But your opinion is not based on facts, Spirit. Posting wild conjecture based solely on your personal experience, assumptions, incorrect generalizations, and misunderstandings is not helpful for anyone. More than not helpful, it is harmful to those who come here looking for answers.

Like it or not, with all its flaws, MWO is still one of the few - and possibly best - resources available for alcoholics looking to treat (cure) their alcoholism with baclofen. And YOU ARE ACTIVELY FUCKING IT UP with multiple, repetitive threads and misinformation.

[kronkcarr]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Wow. What they said...

First, I believe some newcomers wanted to read people's stories. Here's a synopsis of mine:

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ere-73230.html

Scroll down a bit and you'll see it.

Baclofen is a gaba beta agonist that activates the gaba beta receptor. This causes a decrease of the release of norepinephrine in the cerebral cortex and hippocampus. A sedative effect and an anti craving effect follows. Basically baclofen is mediating the activation of the mesolimbic dopamine system. It mediates the rewarding effects of drugs, alcohol, food, gambling, etc. It interferes with the dopamine release brought on by drugs and alcohol. This is a piece of the brain rewiring. My understanding is that our brain rewires after we stop drinking such great amounts of alcohol. It has to do with changing the circuits our brain automatically runs. Because our brains have plasticity we are able to replace the "go to" actions with new actions.

The latest report I've read is that "most people do not drink to change the way they think or feel". 35% of Americans self report that they do not drink. 35% of Americans report that they drink at low risk levels. So that leaves 30% (plus more for those who lie about their intake) who are drinking excessively. It may be hard for some who drank to escape their feelings to believe that most people don't.

With baclofen there can be indifference, and after this, why is it an issue whether one chooses to drink or not? Indifference means that I can enjoy a glass of wine with friends or sit at home alone and have a glass and not be thinking how I can get another and another. It means that alcohol usage is not utmost in my mind. I don't think about it except when I come on here or talk, text or email with someone I've met on here. I've mentioned before that I don't understand the fear around alcohol when one reaches the switch and is maintaining.

Drinking becomes a choice I make, not something I'm internally driven to do. My understanding is that I could get drunk and get up the next day and not want alcohol. I haven't done this so I don't know. I know people on here who reached indifference and "lost it" and came back to bac and regained indifference.

I did not over drink when I was titrating up because it was the right choice for me. I have no idea what the right choice is for anyone else and I don't judge or care if one is better than the other. Each person has his or her route. It's not my business if someone wants to be abstinent or drink socially. In my mind one is not better than the other.

The one statement that bothers me the most in this post is:
"Only expect the baclofen miracle if you stop drinking."

My life has changed in such healthy ways. I got a backbone, I started loving myself and paying attention to my home, finances and health. I had thoughts of what I would like to happen in my first year on bac. Not a one of them happened but what has happened is so beyond what I could imagine.