Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

[chigg]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

I'm one of the abstaining folks. I white knuckled sobriety for 3 months and just when I was going to give in and drink out of pure misery and hopelessness - thinking Id never get over this disease - I decided to try baclofen again. The misery and my belief that alcohol was the only answer went away quickly. I've now been sober for a year and a half (at 80mg/day now) and have absolutely no desire to drink again. I cannot think of one single benefit to alcohol and am glad I don't ever have to drink again.

That's just my story. Those that can find a benefit to a few drinks and are happy, great for you. One thing with bac - especially when we have to self prescribe dosages - is that it seems to take people on very different journeys. I'm eternally great for to OA, Levin, and this forum because it led me on a journey that makes me think of alcohol more as a disinfectant than something to put in my body. I hope whichever journey you're on gets you to where you want to be with this drug.

[YouKayBee]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

I'm currently abstaining and intend to do so for the remainder of my life.

I started my recovery by reducing my intake via The Sinclair Method, using the medication Naltrexone. At the time I was sick and tired of my alcoholism, wanted to sort it out once and for all and had tried almost every other option and approach. The way TSM worked for me was it enabled me to be able to choose not to drink, and my intake got to such a level that I could then learn to live again. Two years into the Sinclair Method I really wasn't bothered about alcohol and was only drinking it because I could, and because it fitted in with 'society'. So I quit. Simple as that. I know I can live without it, and didn't want to ever risk going back to that place. First 6 months was at times difficult but my life doesn't involve alcohol any more, and that's fine with me.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Kronkcarr's post really sums it up nicely. I'll respond to your post and the questions you asked me, but she said it more clearly and concisely.

EDIT: I put this at the top in order to be completely clear:

spiritwolf333;1663029 wrote: Why promote drinking with baclofen as an answer if we are really trying to help the dying alcoholic?
OH MY GOD. Seriously? I DO NOT PROMOTE DRINKING. How many times, in how many ways, do I (and we) need to make this clear? If someone takes enough baclofen for long enough they will stop drinking alcoholically. But if they don't change anything, nothing will change. If someone spends all of their free time at the bar, and then continues to spend all of their free time at the bar, they are still going to drink. And they'll quit taking baclofen, because "it doesn't work". You have to want to change the behavior in order to stop the behavior. Sheesh.

spiritwolf333;1663029 wrote: Thanks for the reply NE.
When you started your Baclofen journey, did you want to rid yourself of the pain being caused by alcohol?
Why did you want to quit drinking?
I've answered those questions many, many times on these kinds of threads. For the official record: I thought I'd never drink again. I couldn't understand the people who reached indifference and drank. It was unthinkable! Unreasonable! Heresy!!! Now? meh. Who cares? I don't care about alcohol. It doesn't matter if I have a glass of wine or a beer. Kronkcarr summed it up very well. While my experience with alcohol and titration is very different than hers, my experience sober (but not abstinent) is very similar.

spiritwolf333;1663029 wrote: Why do you like to drink occasionally now?
Not, as you have repeatedly stated, to alter my personality or take on reality. I don't like feeling drunk, or even tipsy. It's uncomfortable. It tastes good. It's relaxing. Why not? I'm no longer beholden, enslaved, or even care about booze. Last night, my husband and I sat on the beach with a glass of wine (one glass) and watched the sun go down. Would it have been the same without the wine? Sure. Was the wine a nice aspect? Sure. Does it matter? Nope.

spiritwolf333;1663029 wrote:

Why are there so few abstainers (if any) that post on MWO?

Why aren't you figuring out the answer to that question? It is at the very root of this discussion and the entire point. The definition of alcoholism is that we are doomed to repeat drinking alcoholically regardless of the consequences. You know what that means? I am not an alcoholic anymore. I went from daily drinking for 20+ years, with all of the associated repercussions, to abstaining when I want, and drinking when I want. THAT is one of the miracles of this medication. The fact that you insist that it is abstinence boggles my mind.

spiritwolf333;1663029 wrote:

If Baclofen does not reverse the brain damage, then what does it do?

There is absolutely no evidence anywhere that baclofen corrects the damage we've done from drinking alcoholically. You know what does? Sobriety. And abstinence. But probably not baclofen.

spiritwolf333;1663029 wrote:

Should newcomers to this site be exposed to difficulties of taking baclofen to overcome alcoholism? Should newcomers be informed to the fact that baclofen is not a magic bullet to resolve their alcoholism?

Baclofen is a magic bullet to resolve their addiction to alcohol. That's the only thing it does. The forum is rife with information about how much it sucks to take baclofen.

spiritwolf333;1663029 wrote: Ne, I can think of no alcoholic that has ever said they want to stop drinking.
I did. It wasn't about pain reduction. It was very specifically about not drinking. Now it does not matter to me. It shouldn't matter to you. Given enough time, and some more information, it won't.

spiritwolf333;1663029 wrote: Why promote drinking with baclofen as an answer if we are really trying to help the dying alcoholic?
OH MY GOD. Seriously? I DO NOT PROMOTE DRINKING. How many times, in how many ways, do I (and we) need to make this clear? If someone takes enough baclofen for long enough they will stop drinking alcoholically. But if they don't change anything, nothing will change. If someone spends all of their free time at the bar, and then continues to spend all of their free time at the bar, they are still going to drink. And they'll quit taking baclofen, because "it doesn't work". You have to want to change the behavior in order to stop the behavior. Sheesh.

spiritwolf333;1663029 wrote:

I posted a lot of "this is my opinion".

And you stated that baclofen doesn't work if someone drinks. That might be your opinion, but based on the experiences of most of us, and the research, it's wrong.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

To be absolutely clear about this:

I respect, understand and support the decision to be abstinent. It makes sense. It is a wise choice for so many reasons. I have had very long periods of abstinence, and without them I don't think that I would be nearly as clear about how my relationship with drinking has changed.

I have employed many other tools to make sure that I don't resort to alcoholic drinking as a solution to anything. I highly recommend them. They are:

Peer support
Therapy
Exercise
Nutrition
Self-help-ish stuff

[Cassidy2]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

?That's the problem with drinking, I thought, as I poured myself a drink. If something bad happens you drink in an attempt to forget; if something good happens you drink in order to celebrate; and if nothing happens you drink to make something happen.?
This quote is fantastic . I have just started Antabuse because , this was me. It may have been a couple of glasses or half a bottle, week ends a bottle . I still play games with myself as I am only not drinking through the week. But the excuses are still coming , I just can't drink or I'll get sick. It's allowing me to step back and watch those excuses play around with my head. I'm pretty sure I would not win if not for the Antabuse .

[neophyte]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

kronkcarr;1663075 wrote:
Baclofen is a gaba beta agonist that activates the gaba beta receptor. This causes a decrease of the release of norepinephrine in the cerebral cortex and hippocampus. A sedative effect and an anti craving effect follows. Basically baclofen is mediating the activation of the mesolimbic dopamine system. It mediates the rewarding effects of drugs, alcohol, food, gambling, etc. It interferes with the dopamine release brought on by drugs and alcohol. This is a piece of the brain rewiring. My understanding is that our brain rewires after we stop drinking such great amounts of alcohol. It has to do with changing the circuits our brain automatically runs. Because our brains have plasticity we are able to replace the "go to" actions with new actions.

where did you happen upon that information? my understanding is that the exact mechanism is not fully understood and i've never heard that theory before.

[kronkcarr]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

neo,

I read lots of studies about GABA beta receptor agonists and brain plasticity. You are correct that much of the process is not understood and the data keeps changing. One popular theory is about the reward cascade and now researchers are questioning if this is true. If you are asking about this info I can go back and find what I've read. Let me know.

If you are asking about habits and brain rewiring the latest study I've read is by Ann Graybiel from MIT and Kyle Smith from Dartmouth. I found their info about imprinting habits in the brain interesting. They used rats and looked at how deliberate behavior becomes packaged into habits--how we act without thinking. The good news is that the brain has circuits that constantly monitor our behavior. Neuroscience is researching this.

[neophyte]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

kronkcarr;1663270 wrote: neo,

I read lots of studies about GABA beta receptor agonists and brain plasticity. You are correct that much of the process is not understood and the data keeps changing. One popular theory is about the reward cascade and now researchers are questioning if this is true. If you are asking about this info I can go back and find what I've read. Let me know.

If you are asking about habits and brain rewiring the latest study I've read is by Ann Graybiel from MIT and Kyle Smith from Dartmouth. I found their info about imprinting habits in the brain interesting. They used rats and looked at how deliberate behavior becomes packaged into habits--how we act without thinking. The good news is that the brain has circuits that constantly monitor our behavior. Neuroscience is researching this.

awesome, can you share me some interesting studies / reads?

[Xadrian]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

spiritwolf333;1662978 wrote: For me, I look at drinking while taking baclofen the same as trying to drive a car with water: How/why?

(1) A car (most) will not run on a tank full of water. An alcoholic can not function when drunk all the time.

(2) A car can partially run when some water is mixed in with the gas. However, when the gas eventually separates from the water and the engine is trying to run on water, the car breaks down. An alcoholic taking baclofen can better function while still drinking. However, it is my opinion that at some point the alcohol will bypass the baclofen (will override the baclofen rewiring) and the alcohol abuser will be back to being alcohol dependent (trying once again to live with alcohol)

2.a -The car never learned or was able to operate on water and the alcoholic taking baclofen never really learns how to live without alcohol while still drinking.

I think the following comparization is more applicable:

1 A car is constructed to run on gasoline (compared to a human: normal drinks, water)

2 When you add some nitromethane (compared to a human: alcohol), the car performs better and will race. Adding only a small amount of nitromethane will make your car faster and will not damage the engine.

2A When you add too much nitromethane and keep doing that (compared to a human: alcohol addiction), it will damage your engine eventually.

3 When you want to run the car constantly with a high amount of nitromethane, you have to make some modifications to the engine, like chiptuning, modified injectors, adjusting the valve timing, etc (compared to a human: your brain chemistry).

4 When after some time, you get tired of all the racing and just want to run the car on normal gasoline, the car won't run very well on it, because of all the modifications, sludge and carbon deposits, etc.
A mechanic (psychiatrist) tells you, it might be possible to bring the car back in it's original state, but it will take a lot of time to troubleshoot and tuning the engine and it can only be done one step at the time.

There are even people who say they are mechanic (AA) and that the only solution is to never mix nitromethane with your gasoline again.
Regarding the sludge and carbon deposits, that could be true, but you know the car can never run again normaly on plain gasoline without undoing the modifications.

Then you hear from a friend that he heard of a guy that has been racing for years (Dr. Ameisen) and had the same problem as you with trying to run the car again on normal gasoline, had success with adding a high amount of ethanol (baclofen) to the gasoline, which will run the engine like it should, without racing and without damaging the engine any further.
You could even mix some nitromethane occasionally.

5 You try it and find out that it works. You let the mechanic make some slow adjustments to the engine, or you do it yourself and you can slowly reduce the amount of ethanol you mix with the gasoline till the engine just runs fine with the lowest possible amount (maintenance dose) of ethanol (baclofen).

6 From that moment on, only the sludge and carbon deposits remain, which can take years to get out of the engine. It might be possible the reduce the amount of ethanol (baclofen) even further over time, but chances are that you have to use some ethanol for the rest of the life of the engine, because of permanent damage done by the nitromethane (alcohol).

[spiritwolf333]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

kronkcarr;1663075 wrote:
Baclofen is a gaba beta agonist that activates the gaba beta receptor. This causes a decrease of the release of norepinephrine in the cerebral cortex and hippocampus. A sedative effect and an anti craving effect follows. Basically baclofen is mediating the activation of the mesolimbic dopamine system. It mediates the rewarding effects of drugs, alcohol, food, gambling, etc. It interferes with the dopamine release brought on by drugs and alcohol. This is a piece of the brain rewiring. My understanding is that our brain rewires after we stop drinking such great amounts of alcohol. It has to do with changing the circuits our brain automatically runs. Because our brains have plasticity we are able to replace the "go to" actions with new actions.

Good info Kronk -Thanks for posting


The latest report I've read is that "most people do not drink to change the way they think or feel". 35% of Americans self report that they do not drink. 35% of Americans report that they drink at low risk levels. So that leaves 30% (plus more for those who lie about their intake) who are drinking excessively. It may be hard for some who drank to escape their feelings to believe that most people don't.

I've mentioned before that I don't understand the fear around alcohol when one reaches the switch and is maintaining.

The one statement that bothers me the most in this post is:
"Only expect the baclofen miracle if you stop drinking."

My life has changed in such healthy ways. I got a backbone, I started loving myself and paying attention to my home, finances and health. I had thoughts of what I would like to happen in my first year on bac. Not a one of them happened but what has happened is so beyond what I could imagine.

Hi Kronk -Thanks for the information and opinions. This truly is helpful to the newcomer.

(1) Where did you get your information regarding "The latest report I've read is that "most people do not drink to change the way they think or feel". ?
That is interesting because all of the reports that I read from CDC to the National Institute of Health state just the opposite. One example is from the addiction.org and the number 1 reason that people drink:

"1. For the effect
Many people drink alcohol for the effect that alcohol has on the central nervous system. It is both a depressant and a stimulant, and drinking can result in feelings of euphoria, disorientation or a pleasurable release of tension."

(2) Kronk, you state: "I've mentioned before that I don't understand the fear around alcohol when one reaches the switch and is maintaining."

For me Kronk, I became so deathly ill from the intake of alcohol that it does in fact gravely concern me about drinking. I imagine that other last stage alcoholics feel the same way. There are different stages of alcoholism and even different types of alcohol abuse. That is why your story regarding your consumption level is important.

(3) You state: "I did not over drink when I was titrating up because it was the right choice for me." -It is my opinion (based on evidence) that most alcoholics don't have this choice -Again, differing levels of alcoholism (or even just abuse).

(4) Kronk -you provide the following comment: "The one statement that bothers me the most in this post is:
"Only expect the baclofen miracle if you stop drinking."

My complete statement was: "Only expect the baclofen miracle if you stop drinking. Sure, there may/will come a day when you can actually choose to drink one or two and then quit."

I refer back to your opening paragraph where you state: "My understanding is that our brain rewires after we stop drinking such great amounts of alcohol."

Interesting: Its almost as if we are saying the same thing.

[spiritwolf333]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

chigg;1663182 wrote: I'm one of the abstaining folks. I white knuckled sobriety for 3 months and just when I was going to give in and drink out of pure misery and hopelessness - thinking Id never get over this disease - I decided to try baclofen again. The misery and my belief that alcohol was the only answer went away quickly. I've now been sober for a year and a half (at 80mg/day now) and have absolutely no desire to drink again. I cannot think of one single benefit to alcohol and am glad I don't ever have to drink again.
That's just my story. Those that can find a benefit to a few drinks and are happy, great for you. One thing with bac - especially when we have to self prescribe dosages - is that it seems to take people on very different journeys. I'm eternally great for to OA, Levin, and this forum because it led me on a journey that makes me think of alcohol more as a disinfectant than something to put in my body. I hope whichever journey you're on gets you to where you want to be with this drug.

Hi Chigg -Thanks for this post. I believe this story reflects the "true miracle" that baclofen can offer.

[spiritwolf333]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Ne/Neva Eva;1663234 wrote: To be absolutely clear about this:

I respect, understand and support the decision to be abstinent. It makes sense. It is a wise choice for so many reasons. I have had very long periods of abstinence, and without them I don't think that I would be nearly as clear about how my relationship with drinking has changed.

I have employed many other tools to make sure that I don't resort to alcoholic drinking as a solution to anything. I highly recommend them. They are:

Peer support
Therapy
Exercise
Nutrition
Self-help-ish stuff

Very important post for the newcomer to read who is trying to remove alcohol from their lives. When baclofen is combined with the items you listed, you really do get a chance to build a new -alcohol free life. (Or at some point, even regain the ability to choose to drink at a lower dosage than ever before)

[spiritwolf333]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Xadrian;1663311 wrote: I think the following comparization is more applicable:

1 A car is constructed to run on gasoline (compared to a human: normal drinks, water)

2 When you add some nitromethane (compared to a human: alcohol), the car performs better and will race. Adding only a small amount of nitromethane will make your car faster and will not damage the engine.

2A When you add too much nitromethane and keep doing that (compared to a human: alcohol addiction), it will damage your engine eventually.

3 When you want to run the car constantly with a high amount of nitromethane, you have to make some modifications to the engine, like chiptuning, modified injectors, adjusting the valve timing, etc (compared to a human: your brain chemistry).

4 When after some time, you get tired of all the racing and just want to run the car on normal gasoline, the car won't run very well on it, because of all the modifications, sludge and carbon deposits, etc.
A mechanic (psychiatrist) tells you, it might be possible to bring the car back in it's original state, but it will take a lot of time to troubleshoot and tuning the engine and it can only be done one step at the time.

There are even people who say they are mechanic (AA) and that the only solution is to never mix nitromethane with your gasoline again.
Regarding the sludge and carbon deposits, that could be true, but you know the car can never run again normaly on plain gasoline without undoing the modifications.

Then you hear from a friend that he heard of a guy that has been racing for years (Dr. Ameisen) and had the same problem as you with trying to run the car again on normal gasoline, had success with adding a high amount of ethanol (baclofen) to the gasoline, which will run the engine like it should, without racing and without damaging the engine any further.
You could even mix some nitromethane occasionally.

5 You try it and find out that it works. You let the mechanic make some slow adjustments to the engine, or you do it yourself and you can slowly reduce the amount of ethanol you mix with the gasoline till the engine just runs fine with the lowest possible amount (maintenance dose) of ethanol (baclofen).

6 From that moment on, only the sludge and carbon deposits remain, which can take years to get out of the engine. It might be possible the reduce the amount of ethanol (baclofen) even further over time, but chances are that you have to use some ethanol for the rest of the life of the engine, because of permanent damage done by the nitromethane (alcohol).

Yes X -I agree. This probably is a much-much better comparison/analogy. In fact, I would venture to guess that your #6 is probably exactly what happens with the majority (including me):

6 From that moment on, only the sludge and carbon deposits remain, which can take years to get out of the engine. It might be possible the reduce the amount of ethanol (baclofen) even further over time, but chances are that you have to use some ethanol for the rest of the life of the engine, because of permanent damage done by the nitromethane (alcohol)

[kronkcarr]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

spiritwolf333,

1. What I'm saying is that most people in the US drink responsibly--not to change their feelings and perceptions.

2. If you're indifferent I don't understand your fear. I don't mind that you have fear. I do mind that you post it for newcomers. I'm not suggesting you drink. I'm not suggesting anyone drink. I'm saying that I don't understand your strong feelings and thoughts about not drinking. To me indifference means it doesn't matter.

3. You state that you're an alcoholic and you imply that you were a far along alcoholic but you didn't over drink when you were titrating up. Your point about this confuses me.

I may fit into the alcohol abuse category as opposed to the alcoholic category but I could just as easily made the choice to over drink as I titrated up. When I look at ruin in my life because of my drinking I'd say I was a full blown alcohol fuck up so does it really matter how much I drank? I hadn't realized it until I wrote this last sentence but your judgement of my levels of drinking chap my ass. Because I didn't drink like you doesn't mean that I didn't mess up more in my life than you.

4. spiritwolf333, I disagree. We're not saying the same thing about brain rewiring. You stated that baclofen rewires the brain. I'm saying that rewiring is much more complicated than that.

neo, I'll hunt some stuff up for you.

[Fred_The_Cat]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Despite drinking once a week, I've:

Lost 25 lbs
Gotten a contract extension at work, making for the longest job I've ever had
Gotten much better at guitar
Become certified in a programming language
Kicked antidepressants/antipsychotics
Gotten back the self confidence to date again


I don't have to wear a hair shirt to show everyone else that I'm sorry for what I did and that I'm trying to be a good boy. I don't have to struggle to try to be more than a normal person to live down what I've done, rather I AM a normal person and can get on with my business like nothing happened.

Really, the whole spiritual transformation idea of sobriety is an overly romantic notion that people are loathe to get rid of. Baclofen shatters that notion. Can't we just accept that the game had been completely rewritten?