Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Once again, I agree with Kronkcarr and believe she wrote it better than I would have. It also chaps my ass that you, Spirit, insist that she just isn't alcoholic enough. Really?

I just read an article about how it is almost impossible to change someone's beliefs, regardless of whether they are factually incorrect. (It was related to people's belief that vaccinations cause autism.)

Spirit has been insisting that abstinence is the only way to achieve success with baclofen for months, despite all of the evidence to the contrary.
It's a lot like trying to convince someone who doesn't "believe" that climate change exists. Or that vaccinations don't cause autism. It does. They don't. It shouldn't be a debate.

And this is not debate, Spirit. It's bull shit. Your "opinion" is not valid, simply because it is wrong. As in Not Factually Correct. Your "right" to your opinion is negated by the fact that it's wrong. Which doesn't make you a bad person. But the rest of this pseudo-discussion leaves me really uncomfortable about what you are trying to achieve. And more importantly, how you are going about it.

Fact: One does not have to be abstinent in order to be successful with baclofen. Not before indifference, and not after indifference. Period.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Fred_The_Cat;1663367 wrote:
I don't have to wear a hair shirt to show everyone else that I'm sorry for what I did and that I'm trying to be a good boy. I don't have to struggle to try to be more than a normal person to live down what I've done, rather I AM a normal person and can get on with my business like nothing happened.

Really, the whole spiritual transformation idea of sobriety is an overly romantic notion that people are loathe to get rid of. Baclofen shatters that notion. Can't we just accept that the game had been completely rewritten?

Yep.

[spiritwolf333]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Ne/Neva Eva;1663371 wrote: Once again, I agree with Kronkcarr and believe she wrote it better than I would have. It also chaps my ass that you, Spirit, insist that she just isn't alcoholic enough. Really?

I just read an article about how it is almost impossible to change someone's beliefs, regardless of whether they are factually incorrect. (It was related to people's belief that vaccinations cause autism.)

Spirit has been insisting that abstinence is the only way to achieve success with baclofen for months, despite all of the evidence to the contrary.
It's a lot like trying to convince someone who doesn't "believe" that climate change exists. -Thanks Ne -At least I now know the truth about climate change (lol). Or that vaccinations don't cause autism. It does. They don't. It shouldn't be a debate.

NE -ARE YOU READING YOUR OWN COMMENTS? NO NEED TO DEBATE UNPROVEN-SO CALLED FACTS? SERIOUSLY?

And this is not debate, Spirit. It's bull shit. Your "opinion" is not valid, simply because it is wrong. As in Not Factually Correct. Your "right" to your opinion is negated by the fact that it's wrong. Which doesn't make you a bad person. But the rest of this pseudo-discussion leaves me really uncomfortable about what you are trying to achieve. And more importantly, how you are going about it.

HOW CAN AN OPINION BE WRONG TO THE PERSON EXPRESSING AN OPINION ????

Fact: One does not have to be abstinent in order to be successful with baclofen. Not before indifference, and not after indifference. Period.

Hi Ne -I know that you mean well and try to help other people.

Ne -Your opinions are not facts and my opinions are not facts. Yet you seem to always try and convince the reader that opinion is fact. Why? And Ne, just exactly what are you trying to achieve?

I certainly think your idea for a new thread is very interesting. I hope you start it soon.
"Someone want to start a thread about how we each navigated the decisions in early titration and sobriety?"

You further add:
For newbies:
Does drinking mess things up?
If you're taking a medication to quit drinking, it's probably a good idea to focus on that as the goal. But no, it's not the end of the world. Unless, of course, something terrible happens. Terrible things happen to alcoholics that drink. Just something to keep in mind.

Can I ever drink again?
Maybe. Maybe not. If you're still drinking alcoholically, then chances are you aren't able to figure that out. Some of us decide never to drink again. Some of us decide to drink again. And some of us relapse. Or quit taking the medication. You'll have to decide for yourself when you aren't addicted to alcohol. In the meantime, focus on the goal.


Ne -you make a very disappointing comment as follows:
"Spirit has been insisting that abstinence is the only way to achieve success with baclofen for months, despite all of the evidence to the contrary."

What I have been insisting on is the fact that if one wants to become free of alcohol, one has to stop drinking. I have never expressed any form of judgment regarding someone who chooses to continue to drink while taking baclofen. If this were the case, then I would be the harper-valley hypocrite.

You can keep bashing and throwing stones Ne -it gets tiring but such is life. I only hope that the newcomer to MWO who wants to stop drinking truly understands the realities of doing so -with baclofen or other medications. And Ne, this is my intention on posting on MWO. Your two questions posed for your potential thread make my point. Thank you for doing so.

[StuckinLA]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

If you would like to be abstinent, Spirit, by all means do so, with baclofen or without. If you would like to scream abstinence hellfire and brimstone, I humbly suggest you might find a more receptive audience in AA.

[spiritwolf333]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

And Stuck -please show me where I preach "abstinence". Again, my primary point has been if you want to be alcohol free, then you have to abstain. WTH are you talking about?

I can only believe that one's chances of becoming free of alcohol while taking baclofen is to quit drinking. Is this fact or opinion?

Stuck, you are a well traveled person of alcoholism -I assume. What is your advice to a newcomer that comes to this site desperately trying to rid themselves of alcohol? This is important Stuck and you have a vast amount of experience and wisdom to offer. If we are not all in someway trying to help the newcomer (and ourselves to some degree), then all this rhetoric really is a waste of time.

[StuckinLA]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

spiritwolf333;1663496 wrote: Again, my primary point has been if you want to be alcohol free, then you have to abstain.

This is so stupid it practically drools, Spirit. No f**king sh*t if you want to be alcohol free then - drum roll - DON'T DRINK.

Maybe it is unfair of me to call you out on preaching abstinence. Because I've read your posts on this site a long time, and still have no idea what it is you are trying to say. Abstinence? Moderation? Baclofen works? Doesn't work? Please, can you clearly articulate what exactly you want to say here?

The symptoms of alcoholism ARE the disease itself. So if someone is drinking occasionally, but not compulsively, and not having negative consequences (getting drunk, adverse health effects, etc.), then they no longer fit the definition of alcoholism.

Nobody's going to say alcohol isn't bad for you, and nobody's going to say you *should* drink if you don't want. But if it's not causing problems then go ahead and have a damned glass of wine.

[terryk]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

spiritwolf333;1663496 wrote: And Stuck -please show me where I preach "abstinence". Again, my primary point has been if you want to be alcohol free, then you have to abstain. WTH are you talking about?

spiritwolf333;1662765 wrote:

If we are to do justice to Baclofen and Dr. Ameisen on this site, then I would suggest we promote total abstinence for a long period of time.

Oh the tyranny of malignant cluelessness....

Spirit, thanks for being the cure for me spending too much time on this forum.

-tk

p.s. and for fucks sake, the man's name is Olivier not Oliver. Fix it in your damn signature, it's like you've been mucking around here with grape jelly on your tie for months:

"You usually can not think yourself into right action -but you can act your way in to right-thinking" -BW
Thank You Dr. Oliver Ameisen, Baclofen, Internet, and Medical Science

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Ay, Caramba.

Spirit, anything I've thought would help you, I've said. Still you take things out of context and turn them to your own liking.

You've essentially gotten a major karmic-smackdown, and I won't add to it except to suggest that you take some time, read this whole thread, and actually put your listening ears on. The words are all here, and you can actually learn from them.

What's more, the smackdown wasn't and isn't personal. Your insistence that disagreements are ego-driven is a function of your own inability to see the truth.

I'll say publicly what I've been saying privately for months. READ. If you're going to preach the gospel, you damn well better know the bible. Start with Ameisen's book, and read what he wrote about abstinence. (And everything else, for that matter.) Then read some actual literature about the nature, causes, and treatments for addiction.

In the meantime, if you want to participate, you could tell your own story instead of preaching what you *think* works for other people.

I'm done here.

[StuckinLA]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Ne/Neva Eva;1663586 wrote:

I'm done here.

Me too, I bow out. Mostly because I'm trying to limit time-wasting internet nonsense generally. But specifically, there's no benefit to arguing with you, Spirit. You'll twist anything to suit... I still can't figure out what it is you're trying to say.

[spiritwolf333]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Ne/Neva Eva;1663586 wrote: Ay, Caramba.

Spirit, anything I've thought would help you, I've said. Still you take things out of context and turn them to your own liking.

You've essentially gotten a major karmic-smackdown, and I won't add to it except to suggest that you take some time, read this whole thread, and actually put your listening ears on. The words are all here, and you can actually learn from them.

What's more, the smackdown wasn't and isn't personal. Your insistence that disagreements are ego-driven is a function of your own inability to see the truth.

I'll say publicly what I've been saying privately for months. READ. If you're going to preach the gospel, you damn well better know the bible. Start with Ameisen's book, and read what he wrote about abstinence. (And everything else, for that matter.) Then read some actual literature about the nature, causes, and treatments for addiction.

In the meantime, if you want to participate, you could tell your own story instead of preaching what you *think* works for other people.

Ne -thanks for the education and help.

(1) First, I had to look up the Ay, Caramba phrase. Awesome. Finally found on Bart Simpson's WikiA page:

Ay, caramba! is a phrase commonly used by Bart Simpson. It is his second most commonly used catchphrase, behind Eat my shorts! "Ay caramba!" were Bart Simpson's first words. He first said it when he was a baby and saw Homer and Marge in bed having sex. Bart uses this phrase to express surprise, emotional distress or discomfort.

(2) And now, a "Karmic Smackdown" -Yikes. This sounded painful right from the get-go.

When the universe finally delivers an epic and/or poetically just payback to someone who really, really deserves it.

"Yeah, so remember that radio blowhard who made those misogynistic and racist comments? He lost his voice, his sponsors, and got arrested for drug possession - narcotics and Viagra without prescriptions. Gotta love the karmic smackdown."

(3) Preach the Gospels: Per NE -"If you're going to preach the gospel, you damn well better know the bible." There are four different gospels and they all are different and even contradict each other. Maybe not a good analogy NE.

NE -If you don't like my opinions, that is ok -that is life. But to falsely accuse someone of posting untrue information is not ok. Disappointing.

And from now on Ne, IF I WANT MY OPINION, I WILL ASK YOU FOR IT FIRST.

[spiritwolf333]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

terryk;1663528 wrote: Oh the tyranny of malignant cluelessness....

Spirit, thanks for being the cure for me spending too much time on this forum.

-tk

p.s. and for fucks sake, the man's name is Olivier not Oliver. Fix it in your damn signature, it's like you've been mucking around here with grape jelly on your tie for months:

Terry -thanks for offering your typical "positive" feed back.

"High from his mountain top perch -overlooking the lay people, TerryK Speaks. Silence fills the valley as TK speaks his magical wisdom." Terry next delivers the following: "My people, my people, stand down and hear my words -for my words are truth". :upset:

LOL-JK

p.s. TK -Oliver? Did you know who I was talking about? That is how we rednecks here in the south spell Oliver. Thanks for the public shaming. Ouch TK. You and NE make a great tag team.

[spiritwolf333]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

THREAD SUMMARY TO DATE:

Perhaps in my ramblings, I lost track of the topic of this thread.

NEWCOMERS:
DO YOU WANT TO GET SOBER OR JUST REDUCE INTAKE?

In my opinion, it does appear that both options are possible -to some degree.

(1) DRINK AND TITRATE W/BACLOFEN: We have some members that drank continuously while titrating up on baclofen. It seems as though these members starting drinking less as they continued increasing their baclofen dosage. At some point, these members realized that they no longer wanted to drink and could then choose to just drink one, two, or none. I am not sure of the side effects or difficulty while drinking and taking baclofen. Some of these members have shared their stories and will happy to share again with you.

(2) ABSTINENCE THEN DRINK Secondly, there are some members that became totally free of alcohol before choosing to drink again. For these members to realize that they had reached "indifference" to alcohol, they had to drink some alcohol -obviously. If a point of indifference had been reached using baclofen prior to this taking of alcohol, then the member can/could very easily choose to drink just one or many. It has been reported by some members that even though they over did the drinking the night before, they suffered no major withdrawal issues the next day -or at least, no major cravings.

(3) ABSTINENCE AND NO MORE ALCOHOL
Thirdly, there are members who report that they took their baclofen, put the plug in the jug, said goodbye to alcohol, and have remained sober from that day forward. The negative side effects most commonly reported from this elected route to freedom are more related to having to deal with life without the numbing effects of alcohol. It has also been reported by some that the early negative side effects of baclofen eventually dissipate.


If you are a newcomer and you happen to be reading this thread, I am glad that you were able to make it through to this summary. For me, baclofen saved my life from an alcohol execution. It was not an easy route to take but it was better than any other method that I had ever tried before in order to become sober.

Baclofen offers a "new" type of hope to those addicted to alcohol. The even greater news is the fact that other drugs are now being developed that help one become free from the chemical dependence of alcohol. These newer drugs will be more predictable in terms of dosage and have fewer negative side effects. These newer drugs have the potential to save many more thousands of lives. So our children and others down the road may have an opportunity to choose a better path to freedom.

[terryk]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

spiritwolf333;1663686 wrote: Terry -thanks for offering your typical "positive" feed back.
Spirit, I'm quite confident that the bulk of my post history and interaction on this forum has been positive and helpful, with insight and information that is supported by scientific literature. Negative reactions from me are reserved for individuals who are consistently disruptive to the community and hurtful (especially) to individuals. Despite your best intentions you have begun to fit in this category.

You are a hypocrite to call me out for publicly shaming you when you yourself have done it time and again to other forum members (who are more coherent and cogent on their worst days than you are on your best) in an effort to denigrate them because their notion of recovery from alcoholism bruises your comfort zone of black versus white abstinence. Here's an example of what I'm talking about.

spiritwolf333;1663686 wrote:
"High from his mountain top perch -overlooking the lay people, TerryK Speaks. Silence fills the valley as TK speaks his magical wisdom." Terry next delivers the following: "My people, my people, stand down and hear my words -for my words are truth". :upset:

LOL-JK

Those are funny words for you to put in *my* mouth. Compare them with what this delusional monomaniac has written:

spiritwolf333;1643375 wrote: I wanted to add this regarding me and this thread; I somehow ended up losing a friend over this thread. Or I lost a "so-called friend". This particular friend somehow got it in their mind that I was purposeful demeaning to them and, as such, told me that they no longer wanted to communicate with me-and not even a phone call?? This really is sad -but true.

Also, as you may have read, I have had a few others say that they will no longer read or respond to my posts. Well, at first that seems kind of hurtful, but then again, I have to really stop and look at who these particular posters are. And, I have to try and remember that some of these posters are still drinking and sometimes their posts reflect this condition. But all in all, it still sucks to have people tell you that what you say is not meaningful.

But here is the great part of what I have learned with this thread; I am resolute in what I believe and I believe that "most people have a difficult time taking baclofen" for their solution to alcoholism." I will stand by this regardless of the opinions of others. I firmly believe we need to offer support to those who baclofen does not work for and I think that we will find that they are the majority.

-tk

[YouKayBee]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

I have my own views on this Spirit and I've learned to keep them to myself, and tend to provide direct info when requested. Folk tend to find their own way.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

YouKayBee;1663899 wrote: I have my own views on this Spirit and I've learned to keep them to myself, and tend to provide direct info when requested. Folk tend to find their own way.

If we can't talk openly and honestly about drinking on an anonymous internet forum dedicated to the topic, while taking a medication that works even if we are not abstinent, then where can we talk about it? And what value is this forum? Why does one person get to dictate what we can and can't share openly about?

It is ironic and ha-ha funny that for the last year the only things you've bothered to look up are "Aye caramba" and "karmic smackdown".
It adds insult to injury that I used karmic smackdown inappropriately. The smackdown wasn't so much karmic as feedback from your peers (many of them) who think you might be a nice guy who makes a whole lot of mistakes.