Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

[neophyte]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

spirit, unless you have some data to back up your assertions, then they are just your opinions. You don't want to try and sway a noob one way or the other based on an opinion that may/may not be true.

you preach pure abstinence for recovery, thats great, it works for you, but most of the people in this thread disagree, my self included. spamming the forum with your opinion won't help matters.

[kronkcarr]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

neo, I'll either post a few bac/brain studies on my thread or PM you with them.

Sw,

I have barely participated on this thread because I’ve felt frustration and anger about things you’ve said and your tone. I have seen you apologize a few times on here but mainly I see you strike back at someone or say that the person’s response is good and important for newcomers. More than once I’ve thought of the AA phrase “self will run riot” when I read your posts.

I’m the “so-called friend” that you lost:

“I somehow ended up losing a friend over this thread. Or I lost a so-called friend”.

I didn’t respond when you posted that but when I saw it again today I felt the need to get my thoughts and feelings out to you. I didn’t stop being your friend just because of that. I felt belittled by you on another thread:

Your quote

"Please correct this if it is wrong: You were a moderate drinker at best. Alcohol did not consume your life but you still look forward to a drink in the evenings. With this said, you still considered yourself a problem drinker and you wanted to do something about this level of consumption. So, you turned to Baclofen? A few days later, you found yourself no longer desiring the drink at night. You were cured. And now, you choose when you want to drink -maybe just a few, but it is now your choice. Is this close to your summary?"

I answered you back neutrally. You and I had a fair amount of communication prior to that and you knew much of my story. I didn’t understand your attitude about my sobriety with bac.

Like Ne, I sent you PMs, as a friend, about your capital letters and asterisks, and your tone to no avail.

There were other reasons that I didn’t care to be friends: you were sarcastic to Lewis, a newbie here, and he didn’t return because of you, you lied to me twice and lied again when I asked you about what you said, you called one day to ask my opinion about reactions and if people can change them, barely let me answer and then twisted my answer to fit your opinion. A young baclofinista here told me that you argued with her about her planning to go to Vegas and drink. She said you wouldn’t let it go or receive her ideas.

This combined with your above post was my exit point. I apologize for not telling you this but I believed it would not make a difference. It's not healthy for me to continue to think about this so now you may understand better what happened and all of this is gone from my mind.

I’ve known that you spelled Dr. Ameisen’s name wrong since you used it. Are you really so willful that you won’t acknowledge your error and change your spelling of the man you want us to honor with abstinence? Also, baclofen is not capitalized.




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[Fred_The_Cat]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

If it looks like a troll and quacks like a troll, it's a troll.

[spiritwolf333]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

THREAD SUMMARY TO DATE:

Perhaps in my ramblings, I lost track of the topic of this thread.

NEWCOMERS:
DO YOU WANT TO GET SOBER OR JUST REDUCE INTAKE?

In my opinion, it does appear that both options are possible -to some degree.

(1) DRINK AND TITRATE W/BACLOFEN: We have some members that drank continuously while titrating up on baclofen. It seems as though these members starting drinking less as they continued increasing their baclofen dosage. At some point, these members realized that they no longer wanted to drink and could then choose to just drink one, two, or none. I am not sure of the side effects or difficulty while drinking and taking baclofen. Some of these members have shared their stories and will happy to share again with you.

(2) ABSTINENCE THEN DRINK Secondly, there are some members that became totally free of alcohol before choosing to drink again. For these members to realize that they had reached "indifference" to alcohol, they had to drink some alcohol -obviously. If a point of indifference had been reached using baclofen prior to this taking of alcohol, then the member can/could very easily choose to drink just one or many. It has been reported by some members that even though they over did the drinking the night before, they suffered no major withdrawal issues the next day -or at least, no major cravings.

(3) ABSTINENCE AND NO MORE ALCOHOL
Thirdly, there are members who report that they took their baclofen, put the plug in the jug, said goodbye to alcohol, and have remained sober from that day forward. The negative side effects most commonly reported from this elected route to freedom are more related to having to deal with life without the numbing effects of alcohol. It has also been reported by some that the early negative side effects of baclofen eventually dissipate.


If you are a newcomer and you happen to be reading this thread, I am glad that you were able to make it through to this summary. For me, baclofen saved my life from an alcohol execution. It was not an easy route to take but it was better than any other method that I had ever tried before in order to become sober.

Baclofen offers a "new" type of hope to those addicted to alcohol. The even greater news is the fact that other drugs are now being developed that help one become free from the chemical dependence of alcohol. These newer drugs will be more predictable in terms of dosage and have fewer negative side effects. These newer drugs have the potential to save many more thousands of lives. So our children and others down the road may have an opportunity to choose a better path to freedom.

[beckty]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

What's wrong with this person, spirit wolf? Why the continual drum beat?

For what it's worth, my journey to date:

I started baclofen nearly 3 weeks ago.

I am at 55 mg a day and will be for 3 more days, or so.

If keep thinking about being abstinent, but it's just not worked until...

Last night and the night before, I felt the beginnings of what might be a positive effect from taking bac.

2 nights ago, I was totally abstinent and fine with it (first time in a month, and the times previous I white knuckled my way through)

Last night I had 2.5 drinks. And didn't even start with one until 8 pm. It was essentially my Friday. Usually a free for all. Not only that, my husband is out of town, so I would normally be free to sit up till midnight and just drink till I fell into bed, and would do just that. This time, I just preferred to go to bed at 11, mostly sober.

I'd gotten to the point of drinking the equivalent of 2 bottles of wine a night (maybe more? I don't know. When there's rum in the house, I pour it down my throat every time I walk by the freezer. Who knows?) and have been unable to say no, until the last 2 nights. (well, I finally decided to have a couple last night, but the fact that I wasn't compelled to go straight to the fridge for my wine when I got home from what was a high stress day of work says something to me)

Everyone needs to work this thing out on their own. As one of the newcomers here, I need to say that I am responsible for my sobriety and how I get there. I can and should do my research. And this constant rehashing of why drinking and taking baclofen won't work is not at all helpful.

Positive discussions on what DID work for each person is what I am looking for.

Just my .02.

Edited to add: My point was meant to be, this IS working. It's a beginning and I by no means consider myself "cured" and I am NOT at the point of indifference, but I see a light at the end of this tunnel. It's been dark for too long for me. I am feeling excited and hopeful!

[Fred_The_Cat]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Oh my god, ok, I'm done. These sanctimonious, windbag smothering threads need to be treated as deliberate attempts to disrupt the board from now on. A rational human being would have stopped by now, but a troll would just keep driving it further into the ground. Whatever Spirit's intent is, the effect is of a well executed troll attack in that he's succeeded in poisoning every discussion he enters into.

As far as I'm concerned, this case is closed.

[spiritwolf333]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Fred_The_Cat;1663991 wrote: Oh my god, ok, I'm done. These sanctimonious, windbag smothering threads need to be treated as deliberate attempts to disrupt the board from now on. A rational human being would have stopped by now, but a troll would just keep driving it further into the ground. Whatever Spirit's intent is, the effect is of a well executed troll attack in that he's succeeded in poisoning every discussion he enters into.

As far as I'm concerned, this case is closed.

Cat -Thanks for your opinion.

Spewing accusations without reading the thread is not beneficial. Who really is the troll? Enough of this foolishness. What I have posted is prefaced: "in my opinion". I posted three potential options to include both continued drinking and abstinence.

You have now successfully derailed a few of my posts and threads and call me a troll. If you believe me to be a troll then please stop responding to my posts and threads -(as a recommended anti-troll method).

Finally Cat, contrary to you and few others offering negative opinions of my posts, others have found some of my information helpful. It truly sounds as if one's opinion does not agree with yours, then their opinion is not valid.

[Xadrian]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

I drank all the way up and then just stopped drinking for 50 days.

After that I drank incidentally, let's say once a month.

Then I made the stupid mistake to completely stop baclofen, but I went back to my switch again and since that I drink some beers once in a while, without feeling guilty.
I'm fine with that and for me that's proof that total abstinence is not required for baclofen to do its job.

Can I hear a similar short summary from others forum members, just for the facts, the statistics and opinions?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

I drank all the way up until I just didn't want to drink anymore. I then chose to stop drinking for 30 days, which lasted a lot longer than that.

That was 3 years and 3 months ago. I still don't drink regularly.

[StuckinLA]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Alcohol only matters if it matters.

Spirit is caught in a double-bind: if addiction is not cured, then abstinence is the only solution for those addicted; if addiction is cured, then everyone in the whole wide world can enjoy a couple drinks. But he seems to think that if addiction is no longer an issue then no one would drink ever, we'd simply put everybody on these drugs or gene therapy or whatever, so that nobody would want to drink at all.

But the world isn't like that. It's like that old sign hanging above the bar that reads "If you'd like a drink, have a drink. If you NEED a drink, please go elsewhere."

[spiritwolf333]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

YouKayBee;1663899 wrote: I have my own views on this Spirit and I've learned to keep them to myself, and tend to provide direct info when requested. Folk tend to find their own way.
Ne/Neva Eva;1663908 wrote: If we can't talk openly and honestly about drinking on an anonymous internet forum dedicated to the topic, while taking a medication that works even if we are not abstinent, then where can we talk about it? And what value is this forum? Why does one person get to dictate what we can and can't share openly about?

It is ironic and ha-ha funny that for the last year the only things you've bothered to look up are "Aye caramba" and "karmic smackdown".
It adds insult to injury that I used karmic smackdown inappropriately. The smackdown wasn't so much karmic as feedback from your peers (many of them) who think you might be a nice guy who makes a whole lot of mistakes.

Hi YouKayBee -thank you for your comment.

Sometimes, it takes me a little longer to learn than it does others. Just ask Ne. I have tried to make sure that I preface most of what I write as my opinion or at least say "in my experience". Perhaps my perceived "slowness" helps me to have a more open mind to new ideas and the opinion of others?

I now believe that your advice is probably the best real advice that I should consider. I now find it very difficult to offer an opinion if it does not coincide with the opinion of a few others. I imagine that you and a few others have now witnessed this, understand this, and have taken steps to avoid these types of situations (and yet still be able to help others). I have let my foolish pride and my ignoring of common since overrule my responses to some these posters.

Thank you again.

[spiritwolf333]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Ne/Neva Eva;1663908 wrote: If we can't talk openly and honestly about drinking on an anonymous internet forum dedicated to the topic, while taking a medication that works even if we are not abstinent, then where can we talk about it? And what value is this forum? Why does one person get to dictate what we can and can't share openly about?

What opinion have I rendered that is false? Can an opinion be false Ne?

It is ironic and ha-ha funny that for the last year the only things you've bothered to look up are "Aye caramba" and "karmic smackdown".
It adds insult to injury that I used karmic smackdown inappropriately. The smackdown wasn't so much karmic as feedback from your peers (many of them) who think you might be a nice guy who makes a whole lot of mistakes.

I would like to say that this is disappointing news but it is not. The four or five of you that have taken an opposite stance to my opinions and information have made your opinions well known. And I try to remind myself "that your opinion of me is none of my business" (not always easy to do as you probably can imagine?)

Ne- You will NEVER find ONE instance where I have said any thing negative, or, otherwise judgmental about someone who now drinks continuously , has ever drank in past, or who chooses to drink moderately.

Ne, I do hope you see the value in my "so called mistakes" (and I assume you mean mistakes in my opinions?). Many times we see real experiences, thought provoking ides, and new facts surface that have otherwise not been expressed before on the forum. However, when one or more of the "group" becomes vindictive, the information turns from helpful to a somewhat vindictive and totally non-productive. Group behavior in certain circumstances is typical and predictable.

Ne, I consider you and some of your peers as professionals. (Medical, Legal, Teachers, Professors, etc.). I don't consider some of your group's comments and feed back as professional. But hey, none of us are perfect -right? And I further guess that we all are doing the best that we can with what we have at any given moment -right?

Finally, I will not try to justify and rationalize my drinking or not drinking. This can only be important and worthwhile to me. For the record, I will again state the obvious: Consumed Alcohol does in fact change the way a person feels or thinks. This is a fact whether the partaker of the alcohol likes it or not. A few on this forum have tried to argue otherwise.

[StuckinLA]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

spiritwolf333;1664095 wrote:
Ne- You will NEVER find ONE instance where I have said any thing negative, or, otherwise judgmental about someone who now drinks continuously , has ever drank in past, or who chooses to drink moderately.
Here's one:

spiritwolf333;1653514 wrote: Sam -I will not apologize to an admitted active alcoholic who continuously portrays himself to be the god of recovery -Stuck(who continues to give out advice -go figure -how many years now Stuck?).



Now is the time to stand up for the alcoholics who have suffered for so long under the life taking disease of alcoholism. And no, we don't need nor want advice from active alcoholics who are just trying to get another notch in their belt by offering what appears to be "solid" advice.


SW -2014

[StuckinLA]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

And another, judging Kronk not to be 'alcoholic enough':

spiritwolf333;1663326 wrote:

Hi Kronk -Thanks for the information and opinions. This truly is helpful to the newcomer.

(1) Where did you get your information regarding "The latest report I've read is that "most people do not drink to change the way they think or feel". ?
That is interesting because all of the reports that I read from CDC to the National Institute of Health state just the opposite. One example is from the addiction.org and the number 1 reason that people drink:

"1. For the effect
Many people drink alcohol for the effect that alcohol has on the central nervous system. It is both a depressant and a stimulant, and drinking can result in feelings of euphoria, disorientation or a pleasurable release of tension."

(2) Kronk, you state: "I've mentioned before that I don't understand the fear around alcohol when one reaches the switch and is maintaining."

For me Kronk, I became so deathly ill from the intake of alcohol that it does in fact gravely concern me about drinking. I imagine that other last stage alcoholics feel the same way. There are different stages of alcoholism and even different types of alcohol abuse. That is why your story regarding your consumption level is important.

(3) You state: "I did not over drink when I was titrating up because it was the right choice for me." -It is my opinion (based on evidence) that most alcoholics don't have this choice -Again, differing levels of alcoholism (or even just abuse).

(4) Kronk -you provide the following comment: "The one statement that bothers me the most in this post is:
"Only expect the baclofen miracle if you stop drinking."

My complete statement was: "Only expect the baclofen miracle if you stop drinking. Sure, there may/will come a day when you can actually choose to drink one or two and then quit."

I refer back to your opening paragraph where you state: "My understanding is that our brain rewires after we stop drinking such great amounts of alcohol."

Interesting: Its almost as if we are saying the same thing.

kronkcarr;1663937 wrote: neo, I'll either post a few bac/brain studies on my thread or PM you with them.

Sw,

I have barely participated on this thread because I?ve felt frustration and anger about things you?ve said and your tone. I have seen you apologize a few times on here but mainly I see you strike back at someone or say that the person?s response is good and important for newcomers. More than once I?ve thought of the AA phrase ?self will run riot? when I read your posts.

I?m the ?so-called friend? that you lost:

?I somehow ended up losing a friend over this thread. Or I lost a so-called friend?.

I didn?t respond when you posted that but when I saw it again today I felt the need to get my thoughts and feelings out to you. I didn?t stop being your friend just because of that. I felt belittled by you on another thread:

Your quote

"Please correct this if it is wrong: You were a moderate drinker at best. Alcohol did not consume your life but you still look forward to a drink in the evenings. With this said, you still considered yourself a problem drinker and you wanted to do something about this level of consumption. So, you turned to Baclofen? A few days later, you found yourself no longer desiring the drink at night. You were cured. And now, you choose when you want to drink -maybe just a few, but it is now your choice. Is this close to your summary?"

I answered you back neutrally. You and I had a fair amount of communication prior to that and you knew much of my story. I didn?t understand your attitude about my sobriety with bac.

Like Ne, I sent you PMs, as a friend, about your capital letters and asterisks, and your tone to no avail.

There were other reasons that I didn?t care to be friends: you were sarcastic to Lewis, a newbie here, and he didn?t return because of you, you lied to me twice and lied again when I asked you about what you said, you called one day to ask my opinion about reactions and if people can change them, barely let me answer and then twisted my answer to fit your opinion. A young baclofinista here told me that you argued with her about her planning to go to Vegas and drink. She said you wouldn?t let it go or receive her ideas.

This combined with your above post was my exit point. I apologize for not telling you this but I believed it would not make a difference. It's not healthy for me to continue to think about this so now you may understand better what happened and all of this is gone from my mind.

I?ve known that you spelled Dr. Ameisen?s name wrong since you used it. Are you really so willful that you won?t acknowledge your error and change your spelling of the man you want us to honor with abstinence? Also, baclofen is not capitalized.




__________________

[StuckinLA]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

One more:

spiritwolf333;1663029 wrote:

Ne, I can think of no alcoholic that has ever said they want to stop drinking. Most just want a quick pain reduction and to keep on drinking. Why promote drinking with baclofen as an answer if we are really trying to help the dying alcoholic?

That's judgmental as sh*t, and these last 2 are just from this thread alone.